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HK 7s World Series Qualifier

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby 4N » Mon, 08 Apr 2019, 18:55

Some of the guys in the Ireland squad have only been playing sevens a couple of years and it’s not as popular there as even a place like Germany, but sure go ahead and tell yourself they have significant advantages. They aren’t able to select anyone in their four pro sides so over 150 players? Most T2 sides are picking players from much higher in the local pecking order. Guys like Buckman for Germany, Hood for HK etc.

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 08 Apr 2019, 19:07

4N wrote:Some of the guys in the Ireland squad have only been playing sevens a couple of years and it’s not as popular there as even a place like Germany, but sure go ahead and tell yourself they have significant advantages. They aren’t able to select anyone in their four pro sides so over 150 players? Most T2 sides are picking players from much higher in the local pecking order. Guys like Buckman for Germany, Hood for HK etc.

But at the same time the 150th or 200th from a Tier 1 side has made the most out of a structure that the 12th man from a T2 side can only dream of. The depiction of this Ireland team as ragged guys left apart by their union is too much for me at least.

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby Blurandski » Mon, 08 Apr 2019, 22:52

https://edition-m.cnn.com/2019/04/08/sp ... index.html?

Many want a second division of the Sevens World Series. Including World Rugby vice-chairman and chairman of sevens, Gus Pichot.
"The biggest objective for the next cycle is to have a second competition, and we are working very hard for that," says Pichot on the second day of competition.
"Where it is going to be held is still under discussion and it is part of a broader discussion but we decided in the Executive Committee (ExCo) strategic plan that part of the resources, money, is there to cover the expansion of the circuit for a second tier.
"I don't like to call it a second tier but it would be a different tournament that will provide access to other countries that don't play regularly and they have a sevens program."

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 08 Apr 2019, 23:54

4N wrote:Some of the guys in the Ireland squad have only been playing sevens a couple of years and it’s not as popular there as even a place like Germany, but sure go ahead and tell yourself they have significant advantages. They aren’t able to select anyone in their four pro sides so over 150 players? Most T2 sides are picking players from much higher in the local pecking order. Guys like Buckman for Germany, Hood for HK etc.


Look, they won fair and square. They can only play the teams that are in front of them. But lets be honest, the foundations Ireland have to work from are significantly better than all the other nations they've come up against. It was merely a matter of time before they got promoted. I mean, they didn't play for what 15 years? And their first World Series tournament back on the circuit in 2018 they finished third.

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby 4N » Tue, 09 Apr 2019, 00:56

Some people expected them to win, some didn’t.

thatrugbyguy wrote:Tipping Germany for this.


Hong Kong have a professional squad that has been together for years and they played at home. But it’s Ireland who had a big advantage?

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 09 Apr 2019, 05:30

I tipped Germany because of the form in recent years. Professionalism doesn't automatically equate to having the best resources. You know as well as I do Hong Kong don't have access to the same type of experienced coaching, nor do they have nearly the level of junior development that Ireland or any other T1 nation does. Ireland qualifying was only a matter of time. Again, you only have to look at the fact they finished third in London last year, their first Sevens event in almost 2 decades, to see how much of an advantage they already had. Ireland can only play the teams in front of them, there's no denying they earned their place from that perspective, but to suggest they didn't have the structures in place to easily beat everyone else is being completely dishonest. The only reason they didn't qualify last year is because they knocked the ball on over the tryline that would have won them the game against Japan.

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Tue, 09 Apr 2019, 09:00

I don't know if Ireland receives funds from the Olympic Federation for this,

I maybe missed out on that development ...
but it seems to me that
IRFU only re-started their abandoned 7s programme
after they had got extra funding | promise for it
from their NOC

I can't see it happening other way ...
RUs and NOCs are same PR merchants everywhere

:::

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 09 Apr 2019, 09:13

Also I want to highlight, that Germany, despite being now a semi-finalist in two years and a finalist in another two out of four years hasn't played a single game on the World Series in that time frame. We all know why (not best European team in the GPs in all that years, but this makes a difference). I would love to see how they would actually do. Also I want to see our U18 play the Home Nations in 7s, but you know some people don't value the principles of sports and one of those nations just qualified for the World Series.


About the NOC funding of Ireland.

Figures from 2019:
core funding: Irish Rugby Football Union €300,000 (2018: €220,000)
+ their share of hig performance funding as an olympic sport before the 2020 games.
(High Performance Programmes* (2018: €7,240,000) €8,460,000 (+€1,220,000))*

Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other- ... -1.3784018
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby Sables4EVA » Tue, 09 Apr 2019, 09:45

4N wrote:T2Rugby blog getting a kicking in the comments here. Rightfully so.

https://mobile.twitter.com/T2Rugby/stat ... 3747164160


I think what upsets me the most about this is the assumption that the other teams in the qualifiers were of such lower quality that Irelands qualification should not have been a surprise. Maybe I am misreading it but the gist of the point is to my mind exactly this.

The truth of the matter is, there could easily be a competitive 2nd division of the World Sevens Series and those teams would not be far from the top division teams with more exposure. The European, Asian and South American teams have their own circuits now and the quality of their play in Hong Kong is proving that the more you play the better you get. Northern America, Africa and Oceania have one off tournaments so the ones outside the top 3 PI teams hardly get a bite and when they do they get well beaten despite showing promise.

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby Silver Fox » Tue, 09 Apr 2019, 09:59

Blurandski wrote:https://edition-m.cnn.com/2019/04/08/sport/hong-kong-rugby-sevens-bryan-habana-spt-intl/index.html?

Many want a second division of the Sevens World Series. Including World Rugby vice-chairman and chairman of sevens, Gus Pichot.
"The biggest objective for the next cycle is to have a second competition, and we are working very hard for that," says Pichot on the second day of competition.
"Where it is going to be held is still under discussion and it is part of a broader discussion but we decided in the Executive Committee (ExCo) strategic plan that part of the resources, money, is there to cover the expansion of the circuit for a second tier.
"I don't like to call it a second tier but it would be a different tournament that will provide access to other countries that don't play regularly and they have a sevens program."

I hope it comes about.
I hope they build on some of the iconic and historical tournaments like the ones in Suva, Amsterdam, Munich, Nairobi and Mar del Plata.
It shouldn't be too difficult to award a number of those tournaments a special status where national sides can gain points for a level 2 table.
It would be an acknowledgement of their history and all the work done over the decades in the pre-professional and pre-olympic era to establish the sevens tradition.

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 09 Apr 2019, 10:08

RugbyLiebe wrote:About the NOC funding of Ireland.

Figures from 2019:
core funding: Irish Rugby Football Union €300,000 (2018: €220,000)
+ their share of hig performance funding as an olympic sport before the 2020 games.
(High Performance Programmes* (2018: €7,240,000) €8,460,000 (+€1,220,000))*

Source: https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/other- ... -1.3784018

These 220,000€ from 2018 are declared by IRFU as grants for their women's 7s, not men.

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby Gnadental » Tue, 09 Apr 2019, 12:03

Quote. "I would love to see how they would actually do. Also I want to see our U18 play the Home Nations in 7s, but you know some people don't value the principles of sports and one of those nations just qualified for the World Series."


You have had a taste of what Germany's U18's 7's teams can achieve. European U18 7s Championships 2017 Ireland 14 Germany 17 9.9.2017 19:10CET and again the following year in 2018, GB 10 Germany 21 6.5.2018 10:20CET. Germany even had player of the tournament in 2017 with 13 tries to his name. He now plays in/ for Ireland!

There is no stepping stone from, a very good, U18 setup to adult teams for Germany players so they drift off both at 7's and xv game.

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby RugbySwizzie » Tue, 09 Apr 2019, 12:10

I hope it comes about.
I hope they build on some of the iconic and historical tournaments like the ones in Suva, Amsterdam, Munich, Nairobi and Mar del Plata.
It shouldn't be too difficult to award a number of those tournaments a special status where national sides can gain points for a level 2 table.
It would be an acknowledgement of their history and all the work done over the decades in the pre-professional and pre-olympic era to establish the sevens tradition.[/quote]

This would be a wonderful idea and I agree, it doesn't sound too hard to add an elite competition to those tournaments. However, I think it could be difficult for unions like the Cook Islands or the Philippines to get enough financial support to organise travel and camps for a whole season. There would have to be funding by World Rugby, otherwise it doesn't seem possible to take off to me.

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 09 Apr 2019, 12:35

Gnadental wrote:There is no stepping stone from, a very good, U18 setup to adult teams for Germany players so they drift off both at 7's and xv game.


Now there is. Are you aware that this games won't happen again as Ireland and GB left the U18 7s Euros after this results?


Edit: Apart from that we will see Germany 7s play the top nations in Munich at the Oktoberfest 7s this year. Can't wait for this. But still want to see them at least for one tournament at the World Series.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 09 Apr 2019, 13:25

A second division as far as I'm concerned is something that has to be implemented in order to give T2 and T3 teams more experience and quality game time. It's one thing to play a one off series in Hong Kong, it's another thing to be flying all over the world twice a month playing matches.

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby ficcp » Tue, 09 Apr 2019, 22:13

A second division sevens circuit would help a lot to Chile. It would require a squad permanently devoted to Rugby to be envolved in 8 or 10 events during the year. It is more likely to get sponsors for such a tournament than for the participation in only 3 events of the main circuit after winning the classification in South america.

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby Gnadental » Wed, 10 Apr 2019, 09:12

[quote="RugbyLiebe
Now there is. Are you aware that this games won't happen again as Ireland and GB left the U18 7s Euros after this results?


Edit: Apart from that we will see Germany 7s play the top nations in Munich at the Oktoberfest 7s this year. Can't wait for this. But still want to see them at least for one tournament at the World Series.[/quote]
"Now there is". What is the stepping stone from U18 in Germany to National Team now for xv and 7's? Non that I am aware of! U20 haven't played for a couple of years now.

Yes I am aware that the British Isles have withdrawn from competition against the rest of Europe. When they lose it highlights the poor coaching those lads have received compared to their Tier 2 opposition!! :D

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 10 Apr 2019, 09:59

Gnadental wrote:Yes I am aware that the British Isles have withdrawn from competition against the rest of Europe. When they lose it highlights the poor coaching those lads have received compared to their Tier 2 opposition!! :D


Ah, sorry I somehow thought that stepping stone means like a hinderance reason, when it actually is the opposite (German Stolperstein (=stumbling block) was my false friend in translation).
The German 7s setup has a lot of development tournaments, where young hopefuls take part. If I remember right the U20 in XVs is a bit of a depth problem if you want to develop 7s and XVs at the same time. As 7s brings in reliable state fund money and an actual route to the top, the DRV went down the 7s option.

Could there be more efforts? Surely, but only with more money.
Also don't forget that this is another school system. Most stuff people in anglophile countries go to college for are apprenticeships with a dual education in Germany. There is also no university sport apart from offers where you can try out new sports.
Why am I telling this: it is harder to sustain an U20 in Germany than in a lot of other countries - especially with only a rudimentary semi-pro-setup (in 7s) in place. I am not saying it shouldn't be done, just stating the stumbling blocks on the way.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 11 Apr 2019, 10:38

This is a really interesting point

For Wales head sevens coach Richie Pugh, the focus is on fulfilling his task of producing the next generation of players within a Welsh, and not Great Britain, system.

“We’re quite sure what we are as a programme,” Pugh told planet7s. “We are a programme that is about developing future regional and 15s international players and we have a good record of doing that. For us, Great Britain wouldn’t be our model, our model is we’re a development pathway programme within the Welsh 15s structure and that’s what I’ve got to deliver on as a coach.

Source: https://planet7s.com/2019/04/10/only-gr ... d-willing/

Adds a bit to the Ireland discussion. 7s as a path to XVs instead of the only way for tier3.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby Suiram » Thu, 11 Apr 2019, 19:04

I know a lot of T2 fans jumped down Friday's throat when he commented on supporting a Team GB and wondering whether the Series should then go to 12 sides. But especially if a 2nd tier Series was created, I could definitely see both being 12 teams.

With a 2nd tier, they would probably drop the invitational side. it also makes some sense to align the main 7s tournaments to the Olympic format (12 teams) so everyone is playing the same way. And to be honest, if there was still a path for regular international competition, the bottom 1/4 of the current World Series is not that competitive. Now certainly teams swing, like Kenya or Samoa, but its not a completely crazy idea.

12 + 12 would give two highly competitive tournaments with very few mismatches. It would also avoid going too deep down the pecking order in the 2nd tier tournament to make sure its still competitive and an honor to get in (in essence, 8 additional spot, could theoretically be: HK, Germany, Chile, Tonga, Uruguay, Russia, Portugal?, And Invitational?

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 11 Apr 2019, 19:43

Why does aligning to the Olympics format make sense? The olympics format is decided by the space available in the village for the number of male & femal athletes needed. The world series should pick the best commercial and playing format. That is very much NOT the Olympic format.

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby NaBUru38 » Fri, 12 Apr 2019, 15:40

Wales is 15th right now, 1 point behind Japan and 3 points behind Kenya. The relegation fight will be nailbiting.

- o -

A tier 2 series would be too expensive. I would prefer having two preliminary rounds, one for Americas+Europe and another for Africa+Asia+Oceania. Or having 20 teams at each round, with 16 teams in the main tournament and four teams in the tier 2 tournament.

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 15 Apr 2019, 07:18

NaBUru38 wrote:
A tier 2 series would be too expensive. I would prefer having two preliminary rounds, one for Americas+Europe


Not a fan of this. It basically adds nothing to European teams as they are already playing the biggest Americas 7s tournaments as guests. Also the Americas don't have the numbers to have a series on their own. Global tier2 series with 3 or 4 tournaments or nothing for me.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby Silver Fox » Mon, 15 Apr 2019, 12:02

RugbySwizzie wrote:
Silver Fox wrote:I hope it comes about.
I hope they build on some of the iconic and historical tournaments like the ones in Suva, Amsterdam, Munich, Nairobi and Mar del Plata.
It shouldn't be too difficult to award a number of those tournaments a special status where national sides can gain points for a level 2 table.
It would be an acknowledgement of their history and all the work done over the decades in the pre-professional and pre-olympic era to establish the sevens tradition.


This would be a wonderful idea and I agree, it doesn't sound too hard to add an elite competition to those tournaments.
However, I think it could be difficult for unions like the Cook Islands or the Philippines to get enough financial support to organise travel and camps for a whole season.
There would have to be funding by World Rugby, otherwise it doesn't seem possible to take off to me.
In my view they need to be flexible with this.
These could be wunderfull and meaningfull opportunities for level 2 nations to test themselves. Also for nations who do not aspire to go up a level yet and who do not have the resources to attend all events of a series and sustain a team all year round.
I'd propose to designate 8 events spread over as much as regions as possible. Then I'd say it's not compulsory to attend them all.
But to finish first after a full season I'd suggest they make the best four or five results count.
That way you'd have a winner with a reasonable mix of quality and sustainabiltiy.
(If you simply count the overall points over all rounds then you could get a win of quantity over quality. Richer nations would have more chances to collect points despite having less quality.)

I reckon the winner will be awarded with something like a place in the qualifier tournament.
BTW I read that World Rugby have already allocated funds to support level 2 series.

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Re: HK 7s World Series Qualifier

Postby NedRugby » Mon, 15 Apr 2019, 21:28

Yes, they are looking into it. I couldn't find anywhere that said they have allocated funds for it, but they are certainly exploring the idea; https://www.rugbyworld.com/news/second- ... ugby-99168

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