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Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Are you:

For
6
10%
Against
52
90%
 
Total votes : 58
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby victorsra » Wed, 15 May 2019, 19:39

mcv_T2 wrote:
victorsra wrote:
mcv_T2 wrote:Then will Japan and Fiji replace Canada and Namibia at the Nations League second division?!
No problem, Canadians! Join us! We Brazilians welcome you at the challenging 3rd division :D :lol:
Now, talking seriously, this thing is the dead of the development of rugby union in our countries (and in the others T2/T3, of course). Our Unions should put some pressure on the WR leaders… if not, there is no more reason to continue working (high performance centers, SLAR, …). What is the meaning of all that if there is no way to jump to the next step?

That divisions list was only an exemple. Nobody was confirmed in either 2nd or 3rd divisions... it would be up to the ranking in a future date.


Yes. But I am only using the ranking published this week. The 2nd division ‘World Group’ (non european) would be Fiji, Japan, Georgia, Tonga, USA, Uruguay and Samoa). So, Canada and Namibia would be relegated to the 3rd division, unless they can surpass Samoa or/and Uruguay.

If they decide that the league will happen they'll probably use post-RWC ranking, IMO
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby rey200 » Wed, 15 May 2019, 19:57

10 teams = utterly stupid and still too many teams.

In reality it should be 2 teams. 2 teams and a 10 week 8 machtes series. England vs New Zealand. They travel by ship. Make rugby union great again
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 15 May 2019, 20:39

So...I love how when the US was mentioned in the leaked proposal. A whole lot of whinging happened: OH MA MERIT, WHAT ABOUT THE PACIFIC ISLANDS? THE PIs DESERVE THIS MORE.

Fiji Gets announced instead of the US, but no relegation for 8 years: WTF is this? No Promotion and Relegation in Europe?

Sunwolves get cut from Super Rugby: some complaining.

Current: Nevermind, RINGFENCE FOR 10 YEARS, only the 10 T1 Unions. No Fiji, No Japan...reaction outside of this? Nothing.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby antlat » Wed, 15 May 2019, 20:47

I liked the original format with promotion and relegation from day one.

I am dead set against the latest only T1 only proposal.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Thomas » Wed, 15 May 2019, 21:24

Axe the entire proposal and start from scratch, I only see self interest from the administrators and the sport at a crossroads. We need long term thinking and the big picture, not just about tomorrow but the next decade.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 15 May 2019, 22:13

antlat wrote:I liked the original format with promotion and relegation from day one.

I am dead set against the latest only T1 only proposal.


More of a general comment outside of this forum.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 15 May 2019, 23:48

antlat wrote:I liked the original format with promotion and relegation from day one.

I am dead set against the latest only T1 only proposal.


Agreed. This is just more of the same bullshit. How is adding two teams to the RC any different than this shit? Seriously. And why are the likes of Ireland concerned about relegation FFS? It would be a cold day in hell before they're in danger of it in the next 20 years. If ever.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby victorsra » Thu, 16 May 2019, 02:47

Whoever leaked this to the SMH wanted to make people complain...
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 16 May 2019, 02:51

victorsra wrote:Whoever leaked this to the SMH wanted to make people complain...


It's definitely politicking. It's just frustrating that is dragging on.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 16 May 2019, 03:01

victorsra wrote:Whoever leaked this to the SMH wanted to make people complain...


There's been limited complaining on social compared to all of the other stuff.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 16 May 2019, 03:13

It's now a full on disaster. As far as I'm concerned the moment they tried to accommodate the T1's all playing each other each year was the moment the idea was doomed. For starters, I'm not interested in seeing the Wallabies play the same teams year in, year out, and I doubt most other fans are also. Secondly, it was only ever going to lead to a situation where T2 nations were pushed out of the way. There are two solutions to this, the first I've touted for months and that's to make all international tournaments RWC qualifiers, meaning only the host nation gets automatic qualification. It's the only solutions that preserves the existing structures, whilst at the same time increasing the level of matches between T1 and T2 nations. The second is to scrap the plans altogether and work within the existing test structure o increase matches between T1 and T2 nations, a merit based system that rewards higher level matches depending on ranking. As far as I'm concerned what we've learned from the World League is there's too many competing interests involved, and all we are going to end up with is a structure that satisfies no-one.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 16 May 2019, 03:43

The only way I'd be able to accept this in any way is if it is accompanied by a sizeable increase in the funding of the 2nd Div teams. Hell, a solution to this whole mess could be to provide the 2nd Div nations with the same level of funding as the 1st Div.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Silver Fox » Thu, 16 May 2019, 07:00

I am always open for discussion or to try a different angle.
So how's this for an approach:

Scrap the project alltogether.
And revert to the agreed post 2019 global calendar. So:
- The T1 will play each other once a year and sell their broadcast rights individually.
- In their bye weeks they will play T2 opposition.
- No extra funding or competiton structure for T2.
- But also no extra funding for Sanzar. The doomsday picture that is sold on us will be that Sanzar nations will become T1,5.
- We get a more competitive international landscape because the gap between T1,5 and T2 will decrease.
- Relatively speaking, T2 will become better.

Leaving the 6N out off the equasion, the future of international rugby looks bright.

(Edit: To be clear: I am not being sarcastic or cynical)
Last edited by Silver Fox on Thu, 16 May 2019, 08:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 16 May 2019, 07:58

Silver Fox wrote:I am always open for discussion or to try a different angle.
So how's this for an approach:

Scrap the project alltogether.
And revert to the agreed post 2019 global calendar. So:
- The T1 will play each other once a year and sell their broadcast rights individually.
- In their bye weeks they will play T2 opposition.
- No extra funding or competiton structure for T2.
- No extra funding for Sanzar. The doomsday picture that is sold on us will be that Sanzar nations will become T1,5.
- We get a more competitive international landscape because the gap between T1,5 and T2 will decrease.

Leaving the 6N out off the equasion, the future of international rugby looks bright.

(Edit: To be clear: I am not being sarcastic or cynical)


Another approach would be to do as I have suggested and fund the top 2 divisions at the same level and then look to provide grants to help establish and develop new pro leagues. The BeNe Cup would be one such where things like extra funding and help with securing broadcasts etc. could help drive the respective national teams of the nations involved to new levels. With certain teams moving up to fill in the spots left by REC teams that would feature in the 2nd division this would help grow the respective regional competitions to higher standards and hopefully profile. Nations in the 2nd Div that enter teams in these competitions would need to use part of the funds received for competing in the 2nd Div.

So, we'd have

Div 1 - Six Nations teams and Rugby Championship with both Fiji and Japan added.
Div 2 - Georgia, Tonga, USA, Samoa, Uruguay, Romania, Spain, Russia,Canada, Namibia, Brazil and Portugal.

All of the above would receive £10m a year.

The '3rd division' would be the current regional structures minus the teams in the 2nd division but running on a home and away schedule. The first during the current REC window and the 2nd during the RC window all revenues derived are kept by the Unions. With WR grants to help cover the costs.

But under that would be trans-border 'pro' leagues. The deal with that would be each team a nation enters in competition they would receive £1m. So taking the BeNe Cup for example. Both the Netherlands and Belgium providing 4 teams each would receive £4m a piece. With the goal of getting at least one league going on one continent. In the case of South America that's already covered with SLAR.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Thomas » Thu, 16 May 2019, 08:55

How can you leave the Cartel (6N) out of the equation when they hold all the purse strings? In terms of revenue they make the most money and hold the reins of power out of Dublin? Whatever is said or proposed is irrelevant until the elephant in the room is dealt with.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby BigG » Thu, 16 May 2019, 09:11

Thomas wrote:How can you leave the Cartel (6N) out of the equation when they hold all the purse strings? In terms of revenue they make the most money and hole the reins of power out of Dublin? Whatever is said or proposed is irrelevant until the elephant in the room is dealt with.


Eventually I read something realistic.

Six Nations dictate the rules . . . They are killing rugby, as worldwide game. Everybody knows that, but unions (especially southern) keep silent as they try to solve financial problems.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 16 May 2019, 10:00

rey200 wrote:10 teams = utterly stupid and still too many teams.

In reality it should be 2 teams. 2 teams and a 10 week 8 machtes series. England vs New Zealand. They travel by ship. Make rugby union great again


:lol: :lol: :lol:


bRiNg BaCk ReAl ToUrInG

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby victorsra » Thu, 16 May 2019, 13:51

BigG wrote:
Thomas wrote:How can you leave the Cartel (6N) out of the equation when they hold all the purse strings? In terms of revenue they make the most money and hole the reins of power out of Dublin? Whatever is said or proposed is irrelevant until the elephant in the room is dealt with.


Eventually I read something realistic.

Six Nations dictate the rules . . . They are killing rugby, as worldwide game. Everybody knows that, but unions (especially southern) keep silent as they try to solve financial problems.


Absolutely true. Basically 6N expansion to the South. Are 6N taking over TRC.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 16 May 2019, 14:37

What I simply don't get is, why they do it. I mean they've got a lot of educated people on their boards, which should know one or two basic things about economies and that it has never ever been a good idea to close a market.

Especially when your only established markets abroad a more or less dwarf to medium sized countries and your home market starts to have a problem as well. Is this really only this "Rule Britannia" folklore or am I missing something really important here? What do the 6N think they gain from this mid-longterm?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Shev » Thu, 16 May 2019, 14:50


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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby 4N » Thu, 16 May 2019, 15:07

That would mean fans in places like Fiji and Georgia would never get to see their top players. The writer seems passionate and I’m guessing he is young but sorry, no.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby victorsra » Thu, 16 May 2019, 15:42

RugbyLiebe wrote:What I simply don't get is, why they do it. I mean they've got a lot of educated people on their boards, which should know one or two basic things about economies and that it has never ever been a good idea to close a market.

Especially when your only established markets abroad a more or less dwarf to medium sized countries and your home market starts to have a problem as well. Is this really only this "Rule Britannia" folklore or am I missing something really important here? What do the 6N think they gain from this mid-longterm?

Maybe short term personal interest of people in charge over the long term interest of the sport.

Remember for exemple there is CVC trying to block things to allow them to lead rugby's market. Rugby's long term conservatism left the sport fragile and vulnerable to such disputes.
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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 16 May 2019, 16:13

Shev wrote:https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.theroar.com.au/2019/05/16/rugby-needs-globalism-not-traditionalism-to-reach-its-potential/&ved=0ahUKEwjR4JTYoqDiAhX5QxUIHZQwCd0QqQIINSgBMAU&usg=AOvVaw24wIbZedPI_QE9d408k_06
An interesting article from the roar suggesting there is too much of a focus on international rugby which has led to the self interest of the tier 1 nations.


For Rugby to last a long time and to generate the revenues it wants, the club side part of the commercialism aspect needs to be given a greater stage. Super Rugby being only geared towards development for say the All Blacks (per se) is one of the reasons Super Rugby is failing. When I watch South African Super Rugby games, no one is showing up. Hasn't changed in three years. Watch the final last year and it's not sold out. Super Rugby has one thing going for it, Fixture scarcity, and yet it's not getting it done. Why is that? What's the focus for Super Rugby? How much money is being invested in marketing these teams to the public that you want to come through the turnstyles? But think about this, the All Blacks played 14 fixtures last year, is that not NT overload for the ticket buying public? When you have controlling interest in all five of your Super Rugby teams you should want them to be revenue generators rather than revenue sucks.

I'm not really following is pathway of destroying Test Rugby. But he has a point.

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby Shev » Thu, 16 May 2019, 17:13

I'm not advocating for the complete destruction of test rugby either. Being Irish, the part that interested me the most was the call for more of a free market at club/provincial level, a sort of rugby secularism (complete separation of club from international rugby). The four Irish provincial teams, being owned by the IRFU, have one main objective and that is to produce players to play for ireland. I think the main objective of each province should be the success of that team. There is no question that the French club system is far better for the development of rugby players who are from non tier 1 countries whereas the Irish system exculdes foreign players instead focusing solely on the production of Irish players. The best players should play for the best teams regardless of where they are from. I know this won't happen anytime soon and I know that I'm also probably preaching to the choir as it seems that every other country has been saying this for years. Thanks

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Re: Your feelings on the World League proposal (poll reset)

Postby victorsra » Thu, 16 May 2019, 22:23

Shev wrote:https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.theroar.com.au/2019/05/16/rugby-needs-globalism-not-traditionalism-to-reach-its-potential/&ved=0ahUKEwjR4JTYoqDiAhX5QxUIHZQwCd0QqQIINSgBMAU&usg=AOvVaw24wIbZedPI_QE9d408k_06
An interesting article from the roar suggesting there is too much of a focus on international rugby which has led to the self interest of the tier 1 nations.

Very naive text.

Professional leagues in minor nations won't simply grow. It is international rugby and only it that really has appeal in emerging nations. Kill the Tupis calendar and rugby's economy is dead here. SLAR is only an ilusion at the momment.

You need quality calendar. Meaningful tests and meaningful club leagues. You need a plan. The free hand of the market won't solve anything. In fact it will only make it even more uneaven and benefit even more the T1 rugby.

The solution to market expansion is a fucking open system. Nonsense to believe it is better to have no 6N.

Besides how is it true Top14 rugby develops better players?
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