Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Canadian rugby

Posts: 415
Joined: Sun, 19 Feb 2017, 18:10
National Flag:
GeorgiaGeorgia

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby BigG » Sun, 25 Aug 2019, 10:15

I watched the first half. Canada was embarrassing.
Second half - may be young Irish became tired?

Posts: 2842
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sun, 25 Aug 2019, 14:02

For those, like me, who looked for the score: Canada-Leinster 35-38
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 793
Joined: Thu, 01 May 2014, 11:25
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Sun, 25 Aug 2019, 20:27

I posted this elsewhere as a retort to sins ridiculous BCRN comments.

BCRN and the usual suspects were bleeping off about what a terrible coach Crowley was. Facts don't lie though:

Quick record check dispells the haters:

2000 - 2003 35 Matches Played Win % = 39% David Clark
2004 - 2007 29 Matches Played Win % = 36% Ric Suggitt
2008 - 2015 57 Matches Played Win % = 44% Kieran Crowley
2016 - 2019 41 Matches Played Win % = 31% Kingsley Jones/Mark Anscombe

It doesn't tell the whole story either, under Crowley, the Canadian National Team was playing better and stronger opposition more regularly and actually competing. They almost won the PNC in 2013 beating both Fiji and Tonga and had it not been for a comeback victory for Japan, the tourney was theres. Nearly beat Scotland and Italy a couple of times. Beat Fiji, played well against the Maori All Blacks. Crowley was also able to get more players playing rugby in Europe and the SH which he openly said was his big focus. He also was a big proponent of the CRC which conveniently died as soon as he left.

I don't really count records from the 90s as the game was fundamentally different then.

The real big telling sign is the points diff and stats:

2000-2003 PF 728 PA 1018 Diff: -290
2004-2007 PF 607 PA 923 Diff: -316
2008-2015 PF 1210 PA 1374 Diff: -164
2016-2019 PF 1046 PA 1109 Diff: -63

Our point differential looks slightly better now, mostly because we have been playing weaker opposition like Chile, Belgium, Germany, etc. This is also without a WC cycle to show how we do against the Worlds best. I fully expect SA and NZ to put cricket scores on us in the WC. I also expect Italy to lay a beating on us, similar to the beating they put on Russia.

One stat I haven't really touched on and nobody really talks about, but it's made a huge difference, is goal kicking. Specifically, penalty kicks.

Remember when we had a reliable goal kicker in James Pritchard?

Well, when Pritchard was playing and kicking penalties the team averaged just over 2 penalty converts a game.

The teams kicking accuracy since his retirement has dropped fairly significantly. Down to about 1.5 converts per game. That's one less penalty every other game which is the difference between winning some matches and losing some matches. It also doesn't take in to account chances at goal and for a team that is widely known to have a horrible set piece, I can't imagine we are getting many chances and when you get them you need to be able to convert.

The fact is, objectively the Kieran Crowley coached Canadian team was better than any Canadian team before or since in the professional era. Better defense, able to close out more games and able to compete better.

Posts: 2539
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 09:18
Location: Bucharest
National Flag:
RomaniaRomania

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby amz » Wed, 04 Sep 2019, 09:48

Canada announced their squad:

Props
Hubert Buydens Unattached
Jake Ilnicki (Seattle Seawolves)
Cole Keith (Toronto Arrows)
Djustice Sears-Duru (Seattle Seawolves)
Matthew Tierney (Castres Olympiques)

Hookers
Eric Howard (New Orleans Gold)
Benoit Piffero (Blagnac SCR)
Andrew Quattrin (Toronto Arrows)

Locks
Conor Keys Unattached
Evan Olmstead Unattached
Mike Sheppard (Toronto Arrows)

Backrow
Tyler Ardron (Chiefs, NZ)
Kyle Baillie (New Orleans Gold)
Justin Blanchet Unattached
Luke Campbell (Toronto Arrows / JBAA)
Matt Heaton ( Rugby ATL )
Lucas Rumball (Toronto Arrows)

Scum-half
Phil Mack (Seattle Seawolves)
Jamie Mackenzie (Toronto Arrows)
Gordon McRorie (Calgary Hornets)

Fly-half
Shane O'Leary (Nottingham Rugby)
Patrick Parfrey (Toronto Arrows)

Centers
Nick Blevins (Calgary Hornets)
Ben LeSage (Calgary Canucks)
Conor Trainor (USON Nevers)
DTH van der Merwe (Glasgow Warriors)

Wings
Andrew Coe (Markham Irish)
Jeff Hassler (Seattle Seawolves)
Ciaran Hearn Unattached
Taylor Paris (Castres Olympiques)

Fullbacks:
Peter Nelson Unattached

from here

Will be a very interesting match vs. Namibia

Posts: 138
Joined: Tue, 29 Sep 2015, 21:25
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Was_a_Kat » Wed, 04 Sep 2019, 13:03

Disappointed at the veteran heavy presence in the Canadian squad. Lots of holdovers from 2015 that I hoped would be churned out by now.

Posts: 2539
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 09:18
Location: Bucharest
National Flag:
RomaniaRomania

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby amz » Wed, 04 Sep 2019, 13:19

Why are so many players unattached?

Posts: 1774
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 04 Sep 2019, 16:56

amz wrote:Why are so many players unattached?


Olmstead was on a short deal with Newcastle after hanging around Auckland Blues as a camp body and there was never an injury for them. Buydens might be retiring. The others...I have no idea. But the real question is: why so many amateurs?

Posts: 2019
Joined: Sun, 20 Apr 2014, 16:57
Location: Leicester
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 04 Sep 2019, 17:47

amz wrote:Why are so many players unattached?


Happening across the nations it seems. Clubs are waiting for after RWC to pick guys up I'd guess. Blaine Scully is a classic example, clearly good enough to pick up a contract but committed the RWC. Why would a new club sign him and start paying him now, rather than just waiting and picking him up in October when he is actually available?

Ormsted is basically in the same boat, proven, clearly good enough but not so good to be a "must have" so clubs will wait to get him in October.

Posts: 499
Joined: Sun, 06 Dec 2015, 06:42
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Fri, 06 Sep 2019, 16:11

sk 88 wrote:
amz wrote:Why are so many players unattached?


.



Ya, they aren't very good....

Posts: 1774
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 06 Sep 2019, 20:58

So, Rugby Canada is out there being assholes again. Suing to invalidate the BC Labor Board's ruling that has allowed 7s players to unionize. Continuing to call them Amateur athletes.

User avatar
Posts: 2843
Joined: Wed, 30 Apr 2014, 16:57

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby 4N » Fri, 06 Sep 2019, 21:01

TheStroBro wrote:So, Rugby Canada is out there being assholes again. Suing to invalidate the BC Labor Board's ruling that has allowed 7s players to unionize. Continuing to call them Amateur athletes.


They are in full self preservation mode. Their time will come.

Posts: 5487
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby victorsra » Fri, 06 Sep 2019, 21:12

Nick Blevins (Calgary Hornets)
Ben LeSage (Calgary Canucks)


Why they are not at least playing MLR?
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 1774
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 07 Sep 2019, 02:49

victorsra wrote:
Nick Blevins (Calgary Hornets)
Ben LeSage (Calgary Canucks)


Why they are not at least playing MLR?


No idea about LeSage. He's a mechanical engineer though, so perhaps Kingsley needs to adopt the unwritten rule of play MLR or no caps. Blevins is in the twilight of his career, the other options that played MLR are better and younger. Kingsley just has his favorites.

Posts: 138
Joined: Tue, 29 Sep 2015, 21:25
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Was_a_Kat » Sat, 07 Sep 2019, 09:55

TheStroBro wrote:
victorsra wrote:
Nick Blevins (Calgary Hornets)
Ben LeSage (Calgary Canucks)


Why they are not at least playing MLR?


No idea about LeSage. He's a mechanical engineer though, so perhaps Kingsley needs to adopt the unwritten rule of play MLR or no caps. Blevins is in the twilight of his career, the other options that played MLR are better and younger. Kingsley just has his favorites.


I think LeSage just finished at UBC so after this WC he may evaluate rugby/career. He wouldn’t be the first young guy to forego test rugby and get on with life.

Kingsley has his favourites for sure, most of them aged and unspectacular.

Posts: 138
Joined: Tue, 29 Sep 2015, 21:25
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Was_a_Kat » Sat, 07 Sep 2019, 09:58

snapper37 wrote:
sk 88 wrote:
amz wrote:Why are so many players unattached?


.



Ya, they aren't very good....


Gameday and I swear nobody gives a sh!t. We used to be angry, now we are apathetic.

The opposite of love isn’t hate, it’s indifference. I wonder what RC thought about having to cancel Thursday’s gala? 20 years ago that would have sold out easily. They may have actually lost money on it this year.

Posts: 793
Joined: Thu, 01 May 2014, 11:25
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Sat, 07 Sep 2019, 14:02

Was_a_Kat wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
victorsra wrote:
Nick Blevins (Calgary Hornets)
Ben LeSage (Calgary Canucks)


Why they are not at least playing MLR?


No idea about LeSage. He's a mechanical engineer though, so perhaps Kingsley needs to adopt the unwritten rule of play MLR or no caps. Blevins is in the twilight of his career, the other options that played MLR are better and younger. Kingsley just has his favorites.


I think LeSage just finished at UBC so after this WC he may evaluate rugby/career. He wouldn’t be the first young guy to forego test rugby and get on with life.

Kingsley has his favourites for sure, most of them aged and unspectacular.


David Spicer comes to mind. Promising player who landed a contract in the Top 14 playing with Auch. Did a year and said screw it. Is now a doctor and I doubt he has looked back.

Lets be honest, unless you are from a Tier 1 nation and are a test player, rugby doesn't exactly pay. Risk of disabling injury is significant and careers are short. A Canadian Pro might make a $100k a year and their career will most likely only be <=6-8 years. Unless you are Jamie Cudmore and can land the big pay day, you aren't making bank.

Look at Matt King, who Captain Canada XVs, played Sevens and also Captained Cambridge. A few years ago, he was basically debilitated and left unable to work from injuries sustained playing. They were auctioning stuff and trying to raise money to pay for experimental treatments.

Read some about it here:

https://www.munsterfans.com/forum/rhapsody-in-red/the-red-army/37017-charity-auction-of-rugby-memorabilia-including-a-signed-munster-jersey

Not to mention that you'll probably retire around your early 30s and then try and enter the job market. While you've been playing rugby, everyone else your age who you are competing against will have been spending the past 10-15 years acquiring skills, diplomas, degrees and most importantly experience in whatever field you want to enter placing you at a significant disadvantage.

I don't know how our guys do it? It doesn't seem worth it to me. I am in the military, have been a career officer and I hung up the boots as an amateur a number of years ago because an injury playing rugby could literally jeopardize my livelihood.

Posts: 5487
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby victorsra » Mon, 09 Sep 2019, 04:39

Canadian_Rugger wrote:
Was_a_Kat wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
victorsra wrote:
Nick Blevins (Calgary Hornets)
Ben LeSage (Calgary Canucks)


Why they are not at least playing MLR?


No idea about LeSage. He's a mechanical engineer though, so perhaps Kingsley needs to adopt the unwritten rule of play MLR or no caps. Blevins is in the twilight of his career, the other options that played MLR are better and younger. Kingsley just has his favorites.


I think LeSage just finished at UBC so after this WC he may evaluate rugby/career. He wouldn’t be the first young guy to forego test rugby and get on with life.

Kingsley has his favourites for sure, most of them aged and unspectacular.


David Spicer comes to mind. Promising player who landed a contract in the Top 14 playing with Auch. Did a year and said screw it. Is now a doctor and I doubt he has looked back.

Lets be honest, unless you are from a Tier 1 nation and are a test player, rugby doesn't exactly pay. Risk of disabling injury is significant and careers are short. A Canadian Pro might make a $100k a year and their career will most likely only be <=6-8 years. Unless you are Jamie Cudmore and can land the big pay day, you aren't making bank.

Look at Matt King, who Captain Canada XVs, played Sevens and also Captained Cambridge. A few years ago, he was basically debilitated and left unable to work from injuries sustained playing. They were auctioning stuff and trying to raise money to pay for experimental treatments.

Read some about it here:

https://www.munsterfans.com/forum/rhapsody-in-red/the-red-army/37017-charity-auction-of-rugby-memorabilia-including-a-signed-munster-jersey

Not to mention that you'll probably retire around your early 30s and then try and enter the job market. While you've been playing rugby, everyone else your age who you are competing against will have been spending the past 10-15 years acquiring skills, diplomas, degrees and most importantly experience in whatever field you want to enter placing you at a significant disadvantage.

I don't know how our guys do it? It doesn't seem worth it to me. I am in the military, have been a career officer and I hung up the boots as an amateur a number of years ago because an injury playing rugby could literally jeopardize my livelihood.

Pretty much it. This is a discussion we always have in Brazil about players following the dream of become professionals when the only option is the national team with a not good salary.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 61
Joined: Wed, 28 Oct 2015, 19:10
National Flag:
NauruNauru

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Tue, 10 Sep 2019, 18:07

Canadian_Rugger wrote:One stat I haven't really touched on and nobody really talks about, but it's made a huge difference, is goal kicking. Specifically, penalty kicks.

Remember when we had a reliable goal kicker in James Pritchard?

Well, when Pritchard was playing and kicking penalties the team averaged just over 2 penalty converts a game.

The teams kicking accuracy since his retirement has dropped fairly significantly. Down to about 1.5 converts per game. That's one less penalty every other game which is the difference between winning some matches and losing some matches. It also doesn't take in to account chances at goal and for a team that is widely known to have a horrible set piece, I can't imagine we are getting many chances and when you get them you need to be able to convert.

The fact is, objectively the Kieran Crowley coached Canadian team was better than any Canadian team before or since in the professional era. Better defense, able to close out more games and able to compete better.


I don't think that is an objective statement about Crowley. His team was better than the current one. The team in Crowley's era generally included forwards like Sinclair, Cudmore, Carpenter and O'Toole, and Pritchard, Monro and Smith in the backs. There is not an inside back on the roster to compare to Monro or Smith, and the only two top-level forwards are Ardron and Olmstead. The impact of a ten who is capable of playing in one of the top-level professional leagues cannot be overstated.

Crowley has consistently proved to be a good coach, and I don't dispute your assertion that he was better than the others, but Canada's problem is not coaching and I don't think the results indicate much about the coaching one way or another.

Why a club player, whose only wins in international rugby came in the three matches against Tier 3 teams in the repechage, is a starter, is certainly a mystery, particularly given the culling of Barton and Staller, but there is no rhyme nor reason evident in Rugby Canada's decision-making.

Super League shouldn't have been killed, as a high-performance competition is required before any hopes of better performance internationally can be realistically entertained, but it should never have been bigger than six teams. I have never understood how eliminating a league, for all it's weaknesses, and replacing it with a rump competition like CRC, with the final iteration being a week-end tournament, was going to improve elite rugby in Canada.

MLR is here now, and the minimum standard to play for Canada should be a spot on an MLR roster. Pretending that players can go from the provincial leagues to internationals against teams stocked with professionals is absurd

User avatar
Posts: 2843
Joined: Wed, 30 Apr 2014, 16:57

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby 4N » Tue, 10 Sep 2019, 18:15

Treviso were 3-19 the year before Crowley arrived. Last season they made the playoffs and he won Coach of the Year.

Jones on the other hand was a disaster with Russia and Dragons in Wales.

Posts: 1774
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 10 Sep 2019, 18:29

rufusbuck wrote:
Canadian_Rugger wrote:One stat I haven't really touched on and nobody really talks about, but it's made a huge difference, is goal kicking. Specifically, penalty kicks.

Remember when we had a reliable goal kicker in James Pritchard?

Well, when Pritchard was playing and kicking penalties the team averaged just over 2 penalty converts a game.

The teams kicking accuracy since his retirement has dropped fairly significantly. Down to about 1.5 converts per game. That's one less penalty every other game which is the difference between winning some matches and losing some matches. It also doesn't take in to account chances at goal and for a team that is widely known to have a horrible set piece, I can't imagine we are getting many chances and when you get them you need to be able to convert.

The fact is, objectively the Kieran Crowley coached Canadian team was better than any Canadian team before or since in the professional era. Better defense, able to close out more games and able to compete better.


I don't think that is an objective statement about Crowley. His team was better than the current one. The team in Crowley's era generally included forwards like Sinclair, Cudmore, Carpenter and O'Toole, and Pritchard, Monro and Smith in the backs. There is not an inside back on the roster to compare to Monro or Smith, and the only two top-level forwards are Ardron and Olmstead. The impact of a ten who is capable of playing in one of the top-level professional leagues cannot be overstated.

Crowley has consistently proved to be a good coach, and I don't dispute your assertion that he was better than the others, but Canada's problem is not coaching and I don't think the results indicate much about the coaching one way or another.

Why a club player, whose only wins in international rugby came in the three matches against Tier 3 teams in the repechage, is a starter, is certainly a mystery, particularly given the culling of Barton and Staller, but there is no rhyme nor reason evident in Rugby Canada's decision-making.

Super League shouldn't have been killed, as a high-performance competition is required before any hopes of better performance internationally can be realistically entertained, but it should never have been bigger than six teams. I have never understood how eliminating a league, for all it's weaknesses, and replacing it with a rump competition like CRC, with the final iteration being a week-end tournament, was going to improve elite rugby in Canada.

MLR is here now, and the minimum standard to play for Canada should be a spot on an MLR roster. Pretending that players can go from the provincial leagues to internationals against teams stocked with professionals is absurd

I'd say coaching is still an issue for Canada. But Crowley was not the problem. His win % clearly shows that he was better than Anscombe and Jones...but someone in the headshed thought they could do better...when in fact they've just made three disastrous choices in a row. And likely another as Kingsley Jones is now the Director of Men's High Performance in addition to coaching the Men's XVs. And one of his old players in Henry Paul is the interim 7s coach...not that they've done any better with him either.

Posts: 499
Joined: Sun, 06 Dec 2015, 06:42
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 04:38

4N wrote:Treviso were 3-19 the year before Crowley arrived. Last season they made the playoffs and he won Coach of the Year.

Jones on the other hand was a disaster with Russia and Dragons in Wales.





We don't care about Crowley, he isn't here anymore and did nothing to develop the next generation of players.

Posts: 61
Joined: Wed, 28 Oct 2015, 19:10
National Flag:
NauruNauru

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 10:11

TheStroBro wrote:
rufusbuck wrote:
Canadian_Rugger wrote:
I'd say coaching is still an issue for Canada. But Crowley was not the problem. His win % clearly shows that he was better than Anscombe and Jones...but someone in the headshed thought they could do better...when in fact they've just made three disastrous choices in a row. And likely another as Kingsley Jones is now the Director of Men's High Performance in addition to coaching the Men's XVs. And one of his old players in Henry Paul is the interim 7s coach...not that they've done any better with him either.


Crowley's winning ratio does not clearly show that he was better than Anscombe and Jones for the reasons I stated previously, although I do agree that he was better. There are systemic problems in Canadian rugby, principally due to the lack of high performance competition both at the developmental and senior levels, that have resulted in a steady dwindling of the quality of the player pool. There is nothing in the pipeline that resembles Cudmore, or Mike James or Lougheed or Snow or Carpenter. Nobody of Paris' caliber has appeared since, and he'll be 27 during the World Cup. Steve Hansen could come tomorrow and in ten years would not turn around the fortunes of a completely degraded national union.

With regard to the previous comment that Crowley did nothing to develop the players, one cannot paint a turd.

Posts: 69
Joined: Sun, 11 Mar 2018, 17:39
National Flag:
IrelandIreland

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Grayday88 » Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 10:50

Genuine question but why doesn’t Rugby Canada put some of the funds together to start a second MLR team

User avatar
Posts: 523
Joined: Tue, 22 Apr 2014, 16:02
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby jonny24 » Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 13:06

Grayday88 wrote:Genuine question but why doesn’t Rugby Canada put some of the funds together to start a second MLR team


Not that I don't think that wouldn't help, but I don't think the MLR or most fans want to go down the road of heavy union influence like there is in pro14 and super rugby.

If MLR is to survive commercially it needs to follow North American convention, and it's pro clubs remain independent of the governing body.
Norfolk Harvesters RFC 10-0-0 NRU "B" Division Champions

Posts: 1774
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 11 Sep 2019, 18:06

Grayday88 wrote:Genuine question but why doesn’t Rugby Canada put some of the funds together to start a second MLR team


1) MLR is a Private-Commercial enterprise.
2) Rugby Canada is broke.

PreviousNext

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests