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Increase the RWC to 24 teams

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Osmanperalta » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 17:46

They didn't really change the format much

nothing just took a place nothing more
The US, Canada and Uruguay all went winless in 2015, finishing bottom of their pools. None of the Oceania teams did that. Why aren't you advocating taking away from the Americas instead?

thats a good point , but if Tonga Fiji and Samoa had hypothetically got the direct qualification in 2015 and had taken the place to Oceania 1 would say that it is unfair too
Korea or Hong Kong shouldn't get a free spot to the RWC based on Japan's performance

They dont deserve a free spot they deserve the spot they had before Asia 1
If a region wants extra spots in a RWC, the teams that would benefit from that extra spot need to prove their worth outside of RWCs

how??????? if Romania is eliminated now how they "prove their worth" if they never play against a Tier 1 team outside of RWC right now (last time 2006)
As someone wrote before a rugby world cup is a sports festival and an attempt to expand the sport to new markets no just commonwealth plus Argentina and france or seek to ensure that the same countries always participate if we want a real competitive rugby world cup believe me this shouldnt have more than 12 or 14 teams

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Osmanperalta » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 18:11

My point is that you should respect the places of each continent regardless of how their countries in the world cup do. Lets take as an example the football chile will not be in the FIFA world cup, chile winner of the last 2 copa america will not play the world cup but mexico (the last time they played chile won 7 to 0) and many other countries in asia and africa will play.
it's not that i am crashing against the islanders if in this world cup italy does not achieve the direct qualification to the next world cup and the world rugby changes the process to gives an extra spot to europe will be a crap too and another example of protectionism and try to maintain the current status quo

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Coloradoan » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 20:18

Osmanperalta wrote:
They didn't really change the format much

nothing just took a place nothing more


They didn't take a place. Europe had 8 direct spots and a repechage spot before and now they have 8 direct spots and a double chance at repechage.


Korea or Hong Kong shouldn't get a free spot to the RWC based on Japan's performance

They dont deserve a free spot they deserve the spot they had before Asia 1


That is giving them a free spot for doing nothing other than being geographically close to another nation. The whole point of regional qualifiers is to ensure there is something of a geographic spread at the RWC itself, not in spreading around qualifiers.

If a region wants extra spots in a RWC, the teams that would benefit from that extra spot need to prove their worth outside of RWCs

how??????? if Romania is eliminated now how they "prove their worth" if they never play against a Tier 1 team outside of RWC right now (last time 2006)
As someone wrote before a rugby world cup is a sports festival and an attempt to expand the sport to new markets no just commonwealth plus Argentina and france or seek to ensure that the same countries always participate if we want a real competitive rugby world cup believe me this shouldnt have more than 12 or 14 teams
[/quote]

It's not about proving worth against T1 teams. It's about proving worth against T2 and top end T3 teams, since those are the teams they would be taking spots away from. There are plenty of opportunities for these teams to do that, including in the Repechage, which Europe didn't even win last time around.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 20:22

Coloradoan wrote:
Osmanperalta wrote:
They didn't really change the format much

nothing just took a place nothing more


They didn't take a place. Europe had 8 direct spots and a repechage spot before and now they have 8 direct spots and a double chance at repechage.

Europe won in 2011 on the field 6 spots and got two direct spots and a repechage. Europe won in 2015 on the field 7 spots and got one direct spot and a double repechage. It's not exactly the same and you know it. But I understand you must defend your thing, it wouldn't have looked pretty for Americas if USA, Canada and Uruguay had been penalised for their 0/12 record like we claim it should have happened to PIs.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby amz » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 20:38

Coloradoan wrote:It's not about proving worth against T1 teams. It's about proving worth against T2 and top end T3 teams, since those are the teams they would be taking spots away from. There are plenty of opportunities for these teams to do that, including in the Repechage, which Europe didn't even win last time around.


Romania play Tier 3 and non test matches in June/November from many years yet teams less ranked get T1 test despite being heavily beaten every time, heck even leaving RWC with no win and nothing remarkable to remember. Also Romania prove worth against T2 and T3 numerous times, winning against likes of Tonga, Samoa or Georgia, at the upper ranks of T2 , played a meaningless Brazil match in last June (I would have prefered Uruguay or USA away) yet no damn T1 test so I am not sure how long we should prove our worth, it seems it is easier to get better test being on the losing side like, like you.

The point is European teams are making efforts to progress and there isn't any incentive at all.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Osmanperalta » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 21:10

The point is European teams are making efforts to progress and there isn't any incentive at all.

I started watching rugby at the 2003 world cup (I'm only 24 years old) and played during my university life but it was enough to realize that Romania is treated like the "ugly bitch" by world rugby once i suggested that if romania and georgia wanted play test matchets with the tier 1 nations should invent a haka and people almost kill me on the world rugby page :lol:
but as you can see there people more than happy with the current status quo commonwealth countries plus france argentina and italy (but it's the team that everyone hates)
as pichot said there are a lot of closed-minded people in rugby
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2018/01/27/agustin-pichot-almost-got-shot-trying-alter-six-nations/

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby jservuk » Fri, 02 Mar 2018, 00:27

Slightly tangential, but I can't help wondering what debates, doubts, dreams people expressed when the idea of the first RWC was proposed.

I didn't follow Rugby back then, and obviously debate would have been confined to pre-internet modes of communication, but you can well imagine people having reservations about having teams from outside the T1 nations at all to avoid blow outs.

Every stage in the expansion has carried the risk of blow outs, and the early tournaments had a few of these. Nonetheless, the tournament has grown in profile and has helped to take Rugby to new markets. So, I think qualms about expansion to 24 leading to blow-outs that knock the Rugby cause back do not hold up historically. The thrill of seeing one's nation play at tournaments outweighs the disappointments that often follow. The media tend to spin it positively in these cases. By far the greatest risk to such events is the host nation having a disaster, and that is where I think caution in selecting future hots is needed, and having a sensible pool stage.

I like the 24 team format of FIFA 86-94, and Euro 2016 .... the great uncertainty of the 4 best ranked 3 place teams in the groups makes it all exciting and reducing the chance of teams being out after 2 games.

I think we've lived through something of a golden era for sport with the influx of huge TV money. It could be argued that with the growing popularity of e-sports, interest in real sport might start to diminish, meaning the potential for growth will reduce. The time to grow the sport is now .... 20 years might be too late.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby antlat » Fri, 02 Mar 2018, 01:45

I actually like the system that FIBA has implemented for their FIBA World Cup. Open process for all nations except those who due to their World Rankings or poor historical record cannot qualify for the immediate World Cup but has a pathway to the following World Cup if they are good enough.

Granted the FIBA World Cup has 32 teams but ait can be readjusted for a 20 team or 24 team World Cup.

Description is found here http://www.fiba.basketball/qualifiers.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 02 Mar 2018, 09:55

Well, the fun thing is nobody among basketball fans likes it considering the best players are all missing qualifiers. NBA and Euroleague don't release their players.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 02 Mar 2018, 11:12

I don't think the qualifiers would be an issue anywhere.

Europe:
a) 16 teams, group of 4, neutral venue or , call it European Championship. Qualified, 6N, REC, 4 best RET.
b) 12 teams (6N+REC), 3 groups of 4, best two qualify, rest plays off for the remaining spots.
There are so many options. Solution b would mean 3/6 matches over maybe 2 years, of which at least one/2 would be against another t1 nation.

Oceania: 8 teams starting with home-and-away quarterfinal over 2 years. If not enough Unions, than a freeby for the best ranked team.

Africa: 4 team-round-robin with SA. Call it African championship

Americas: Americas 6N with a playoff between the worst team from the year before the qualifier and the best from the league down. If the team from the league down wins, they play off for the last Americas qualifying spot.

Asia: already in place. Asian nations.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Bogdan_DC » Fri, 02 Mar 2018, 13:24

Osmanperalta wrote:I started watching rugby at the 2003 world cup (I'm only 24 years old) and played during my university life but it was enough to realize that Romania is treated like the "ugly bitch" by world rugby once i suggested that if romania and georgia wanted play test matchets with the tier 1 nations should invent a haka and people almost kill me on the world rugby page :lol:


:thumbup: :D

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 02 Mar 2018, 13:36

Bogdan_DC wrote:
Osmanperalta wrote:I started watching rugby at the 2003 world cup (I'm only 24 years old) and played during my university life but it was enough to realize that Romania is treated like the "ugly bitch" by world rugby once i suggested that if romania and georgia wanted play test matchets with the tier 1 nations should invent a haka and people almost kill me on the world rugby page :lol:


:thumbup: :D


If your dancing skills are not good enough, adding three different crosses in the upper left of your flag seems might help a lot as well :D
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby amz » Fri, 02 Mar 2018, 13:41

We can try this... :lol:


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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Bogdan_DC » Fri, 02 Mar 2018, 13:58

amz wrote:We can try this... :lol:



Don't laugh but it was an idea with this in the '80s when Romanian rugby was in full flight. They put the idea to bed after the props say the complexity of the dance is to high for them :))).

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 02 Mar 2018, 14:00

amz wrote:We can try this... :lol:



Not bad ass enough.
We've tried it and even this wasn't enough:

How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby amz » Fri, 02 Mar 2018, 14:00

Bogdan_DC wrote:Don't laugh but it was an idea with this in the '80s when Romanian rugby was in full flight. They put the idea to bed after the props say the complexity of the dance is to high for them :))).


I can imagine Tarus and Lazar performing :lol: :lol:

For those who are curious what the respective dance is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C4%83lu%C8%99ari

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Bogdan_DC » Fri, 02 Mar 2018, 14:19

amz wrote:I can imagine Tarus and Lazar performing :lol: :lol:


Actually we saw them vs Spain...dancing near the rucks :))))

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Duke of Currie » Fri, 02 Mar 2018, 18:18

Reading more of the latest responses (dancing aside) , I don't think that rugby will be of a high enough standard for the next 10 years to justify expanding the world cup. However , there is a requirement to expand the game and this should be the focus not expanding the world cup.
A suitable idea borrowed from UEFA , would be the League of Nations idea which removes meaningless friendlies and offers a pathway for qualification for the European Championships. Countries just now are reluctant to expand the 6N / Championship without fear of relegation or reduce the 12 team automatic qualifications or lose out on lucrative T1 v T1 Autumn Internationals.
An idea would be to have two sets of leagues, 8 team divisions , spanning the Euro/Africa zone and another for the Pacific Ocean.Using the Euro Africa zone as an example, it would start as the 6N ,South Africa & top 1 REC , division 2 would be next 8 teams from Euro/Africa , then regional team divisions after that.
Games would be played over the Autumn Internationals and 6N window (7 games) , home or away with a relegation play offs between the bottom of division 1 and top of division 2. It would be repeated for Div 2 against the winner of the regional play offs champions. This still leaves a few weeks or teams to play touring Pacific Island teams if required.
One provision would be to follow the Premiership football distribution of monies , with a proportion of Division 1 monies distributed across division 2 countries also , with the inclusion of a 'parachute' payment if a division 1 team were to be relegated.
A similar set up would be put in place for the Pacific Ocean zone , perhaps with 6 teams leagues but following the same principle.
These divisions not only give pathways to teams to play more T1 / T2 countries , but can also act as qualifying rounds for the world cup. As mentioned in the opening line , the strength in depth of rugby is too small currently , so have the host team as the only automatic qualified , then say at the year end before the World Cup , top 12 from Euro/Africa (Division 1 and Top 4 from Div 2) and Top 8 from Pac Ocean (Div 1 and 2 from Div 2) qualify. Depending on who is hosting it , 1 less from these numbers would satisfy.

A final proposal to develop the game would be to scrap the summer tours and play Quadrangular tournaments in countries around the world , involving the top 20 nations in the world on an annual basis based upon world rankings
For example , One summer in USA you may have NZ , Ire, USA & Canada , In Fiji at the same time , you may have Jap , Fiji , Aus & Scotland , In Spain you might have France , Spain , Arg & Tonga , In Romania , Sth Africa , Wales . Romania & Samoa and in Georgia , Eng , Georgia , Italy & Uruguay.
This is to encourage more fixtures across existing T1 & T2 nations and have them played in developing nations.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Tobar » Fri, 02 Mar 2018, 19:09

Does anyone think a developing nations world cup has any merit? Not trying to whine about my post but I think it got buried by other comments about dancing and such. I really think an 8 team Tier 2 world cup would be much more feasible and competitive than making the RWC 24 teams.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 02 Mar 2018, 19:23

Tobar wrote:Does anyone think a developing nations world cup has any merit? Not trying to whine about my post but I think it got buried by other comments about dancing and such. I really think an 8 team Tier 2 world cup would be much more feasible and competitive than making the RWC 24 teams.


Personally no.

Or rather, yes and no. As a stand-alongside "Development Cup" at the same time as the RWC I think a solid no. Commercially it would do very little and it would very clearly not be as good as the RWC.

As a June (now July if the calendar shift goes ahead) standalone competition, a sort of "Nations Cup +", then yes I think it could be a nice development tool to encourage transcontinental competition at that Brazil-Korea-Kenya level.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Tobar » Fri, 02 Mar 2018, 19:53

Where would the matches be held? Just figured if it was held in conjunction with the RWC you would get more rugby fans in the area that can stop by. However, you really wouldn't be developing rugby fanbases at all in the actual countries...

Maybe a place like Spain or Germany would be desirable place....I mean, Spain is likely in this year so that wouldn't apply but somewhere relatively close to the other countries as well as some Tier 1 countries would make it more financially viable. Preferably a destination spot or at minimum a semi-desirable place to go to.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 02 Mar 2018, 20:53

Does anybody know a b-world-cup which is accepted or really of interest in any sport? End of the discussion.

Nobody needs games against other t2 or t3 games this already happening. What's needed is regular games against t1. This is the only reason the gap isn't closed. And as long as this problem isn't solved, the "high enough standard" whatever this means, will never be reached. Other excuses will be found.

The UEFA league of nations is the biggest single bullshit ever thought about in soccer. And it won't last long and hopefully it will lose them a lot of supporters.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 02 Mar 2018, 21:18

RugbyLiebe wrote:Does anybody know a b-world-cup which is accepted or really of interest in any sport? End of the discussion.

Nobody needs games against other t2 or t3 games this already happening. What's needed is regular games against t1. This is the only reason the gap isn't closed. And as long as this problem isn't solved, the "high enough standard" whatever this means, will never be reached. Other excuses will be found.

The UEFA league of nations is the biggest single bullshit ever thought about in soccer. And it won't last long and hopefully it will lose them a lot of supporters.



Agree with the rugby bit.

On the football bit, what makes you say that? I like the idea of it and its got some pretty good press in the UK papers.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby iul » Fri, 02 Mar 2018, 21:21

Tobar wrote:Does anyone think a developing nations world cup has any merit? Not trying to whine about my post but I think it got buried by other comments about dancing and such. I really think an 8 team Tier 2 world cup would be much more feasible and competitive than making the RWC 24 teams.

I don't think a developing nations world cup would work, but I think a two stage group stage could work.
Keep the main tournament at 4 groups of 5 teams, and keep 2 slots open in each group. Before that stage, hold a group stage with 4 groups of 4 teams, best two out of each group go to the two slots available in each 2nd stage group.
For this to be credible it would have to be organized in the same country, right before the 2nd group stage would happen, and the opening game would have to be the official opening game of the RWC, with all the festivities, etc....
The games could be held as double headers, to attract more fans.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sat, 03 Mar 2018, 06:46

sk 88 wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:The UEFA league of nations is the biggest single bullshit ever thought about in soccer. And it won't last long and hopefully it will lose them a lot of supporters.


On the football bit, what makes you say that? I like the idea of it and its got some pretty good press in the UK papers.


The appeal of soccer has always been that minors play and can beat better teams. Also the best teams don't meet that often, but those encounters are what people talk about for years. If you play those other big nations more often, the value of single games goes down. In the long run this will lead to a drop (maybe not at the highest nation league level as we see in rugby).
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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