Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Increase the RWC to 24 teams

olivier

Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby olivier » Wed, 28 Feb 2018, 17:29

Tons of wrong arguments. Worst of it : it's dangerous. Ridiculous. Max Brito could have injured in a simple club game. Nobody cares to see San Marino lost every qualifying matchs they had. Nobody ever think it was meaningless... This is sport... FIFA is not the only organization with fair qualifying. Look at FIBA, Handball, Volleyball, every team sport in the world...
NedRugby wrote:I will come out with what will be an unpopular position on this forum. I think we do need at least 8 automatic qualifiers. Football is not rugby and there is no way you could have a meaningful qualification tournament in most of the regions.

What the point of being meaningful ???
Take Europe for example. Can you imagine England v Denmark? Ireland v Croatia? France v Andorra? No? Then we need some kind of pre-qualifiers to whittle away at least the hugest mismatches.

FIFA does it for Asia. Why not. But you really show you ignorance. Croatia and Denmark have a long rugby tradition, playing England and Ireland would push them to be more competitive.
So let's say we get rid of the bottom 18 European countries through pre-qualifying, leaving 20 teams to fight it out. Using the World Rankings purely as a guide that would still leave us with the likes of Malta and Lithuania. Seriously, one of these teams playing a competitive match against a 6 nations team would be dangerous.

You know nothing of these teams. Lithuania sent a ton of players abroad. They just don't manage to get them because they currently don't play meaningful qualifying. Lithuanian players already plays at the highest level.
If you take it down still further to 16, you would still be including four RET teams - let's say Portugal Netherlands Poland and Switzerland. I was in the crowd last time Netherlands played England in a qualifier and it was not pretty - 116-0. It may be one of the reasons they allowed quarterfinalists to auto-qualify after that.

All the players from the Netherlands said it was a very useful experience... You only say bs from blazers.
Things would be even worse in Oceania where you'd have to have Niue, Solomon Islands and Vanuatu playing Samoa Australia and NZ. Otherwise you would have a prequalifier and then the best (PNG?) as a token 6th team playing a round robin with Australia, NZ, Samoa, Tonga and Fiji. That would be a whole load of either meaningless matches or utter wipeouts purely to eliminate one team which has no chance anyway.

Smallest nations can play a qualifying round like in a lot of sport. If PNG was playing Australia, Fiji and NZ twice every four years, I can tell you rugby union will be the biggest sport in the country !!!!

No I think we have to admit that rugby is not yet the global game we all want it to become, and we have to be realistic about how to get it there, and that is not by adding mis-matches between T1 v T3 countries, it is by increasing the number of competitive matches between T1 and T2 countries outside the RWC, and the same with T2 and the better T3 teams.

You barely want to add meaningless matches...

olivier

Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby olivier » Wed, 28 Feb 2018, 17:50

And do you know why Zeno Kieft don't want to play for the national team ? Because current qualifying are meaningless !! If he could play Romania, Italy and England twice. He would jump into it and allow the Netherlands to improve.

olivier

Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby olivier » Wed, 28 Feb 2018, 18:46

Here what could happen in only two RWC cycle with fair qualifying in Europe and 24 teams at RWC.
Europe would have 9,5 spots. Rugby Europe could make 5 pools of 6 (Top team of each pool qualifies, 4 best second also, 5th best second to playoff)
Let's make a random draw and take a pool :
Ireland
Romania
Belgium
Poland
Sweden
Serbia (from preliminary round)

10 rounds. 30 total matches.
Wow ! Romania could finally play a Tier One nation for the first time in 15 years... They could finally fill Bucarest National Stadium. Belgium could finally bring his overseas army to play meaningful game. They would have a chance against Romania. They could generate much bigger revenues and play in a real stadium. Games live on national TV.
Polish rugby would explode with 10 qualifying matches including 6 against Ireland, Romania and Belgium. They could play with their full team each game. Participation numbers would rise in less than four years. Their championship would go pro in less than three years.
Rugby in Sweden could finally profit from Scandinavian athletes and links with Great Britain. They would have an amazing pack in less than two cycles.
Serbia could finally send more players in Romania. National spirit would force them to improve quickly. And yes, they would learn to lose 120-0 to Ireland and Romania in the first cycle.
And the end the second cycle, Ireland would not be sure to qualify. I can tell you people will come to see Belgium at Aviva stadium to support them ! And finally, Ireland would have much more TV revenues because RWC TV rights would have grow by 300%.
Last edited by olivier on Wed, 28 Feb 2018, 18:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby amz » Wed, 28 Feb 2018, 18:51

NedRugby wrote:I will come out with what will be an unpopular position on this forum. I think we do need at least 8 automatic qualifiers. Football is not rugby and there is no way you could have a meaningful qualification tournament in most of the regions. Take Europe for example. Can you imagine England v Denmark? Ireland v Croatia? France v Andorra? No? Then we need some kind of pre-qualifiers to whittle away at least the hugest mismatches. So let's say we get rid of the bottom 18 European countries through pre-qualifying, leaving 20 teams to fight it out. Using the World Rankings purely as a guide that would still leave us with the likes of Malta and Lithuania. Seriously, one of these teams playing a competitive match against a 6 nations team would be dangerous. If you take it down still further to 16, you would still be including four RET teams - let's say Portugal Netherlands Poland and Switzerland. I was in the crowd last time Netherlands played England in a qualifier and it was not pretty - 116-0. It may be one of the reasons they allowed quarterfinalists to auto-qualify after that. So then you could reduce the final qualifying round to 12 instead of 16, meaning that 8 out of 12 teams would get through. That is a far cry from being anything like a FIFA qualification system and doesn't do anything for teams 13-38 in Europe anyway.

Things would be even worse in Oceania where you'd have to have Niue, Solomon Islands and Vanuatu playing Samoa Australia and NZ. Otherwise you would have a prequalifier and then the best (PNG?) as a token 6th team playing a round robin with Australia, NZ, Samoa, Tonga and Fiji. That would be a whole load of either meaningless matches or utter wipeouts purely to eliminate one team which has no chance anyway.

No I think we have to admit that rugby is not yet the global game we all want it to become, and we have to be realistic about how to get it there, and that is not by adding mis-matches between T1 v T3 countries, it is by increasing the number of competitive matches between T1 and T2 countries outside the RWC, and the same with T2 and the better T3 teams.


+1

sane realistic opinion.

just imagine Billy Vunipola charging full speed one guy who trains in the evening after work...

olivier

Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby olivier » Wed, 28 Feb 2018, 18:54

amz wrote:
NedRugby wrote:I will come out with what will be an unpopular position on this forum. I think we do need at least 8 automatic qualifiers. Football is not rugby and there is no way you could have a meaningful qualification tournament in most of the regions. Take Europe for example. Can you imagine England v Denmark? Ireland v Croatia? France v Andorra? No? Then we need some kind of pre-qualifiers to whittle away at least the hugest mismatches. So let's say we get rid of the bottom 18 European countries through pre-qualifying, leaving 20 teams to fight it out. Using the World Rankings purely as a guide that would still leave us with the likes of Malta and Lithuania. Seriously, one of these teams playing a competitive match against a 6 nations team would be dangerous. If you take it down still further to 16, you would still be including four RET teams - let's say Portugal Netherlands Poland and Switzerland. I was in the crowd last time Netherlands played England in a qualifier and it was not pretty - 116-0. It may be one of the reasons they allowed quarterfinalists to auto-qualify after that. So then you could reduce the final qualifying round to 12 instead of 16, meaning that 8 out of 12 teams would get through. That is a far cry from being anything like a FIFA qualification system and doesn't do anything for teams 13-38 in Europe anyway.

Things would be even worse in Oceania where you'd have to have Niue, Solomon Islands and Vanuatu playing Samoa Australia and NZ. Otherwise you would have a prequalifier and then the best (PNG?) as a token 6th team playing a round robin with Australia, NZ, Samoa, Tonga and Fiji. That would be a whole load of either meaningless matches or utter wipeouts purely to eliminate one team which has no chance anyway.

No I think we have to admit that rugby is not yet the global game we all want it to become, and we have to be realistic about how to get it there, and that is not by adding mis-matches between T1 v T3 countries, it is by increasing the number of competitive matches between T1 and T2 countries outside the RWC, and the same with T2 and the better T3 teams.


+1

sane realistic opinion.

just imagine Billy Vunipola charging full speed one guy who trains in the evening after work...

That's because you don't understand the guy will be pro if he had the chance to face Billy.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby amz » Wed, 28 Feb 2018, 19:30

olivier wrote:That's because you don't understand the guy will be pro if he had the chance to face Billy.


no he won't , this cannot happen suddenly

olivier

Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby olivier » Wed, 28 Feb 2018, 20:28

The guy is already pro but can't play for his team
Or the guy deserve to be pro but don't believe in it because it's not usual
Or the guy will become pro in few years because his championship will generate more revenues

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby victorsra » Wed, 28 Feb 2018, 20:54

10 rounds. 30 total matches.

When?

Don't tell me "when World Rugby orders" because you overestimate World Rugby's power over T1s and clubs. It is a tricky negociation always.

For me the only possible "when" in Europe are those 2 bye weekends of the 6 Nations. With this, over 3 years, you have 6 dates when T1s can face T2s/3s. You need a shorter format, but possible.

In Oceania this would be more problematic because Fiji, Samoa and Tonga depend on their Europe-based players... I would say October, but they would need a solid/unrealistic agreeement with the European Leagues to allow Pacific Islanders (key players for many clubs) to be out of their clubs in the 2 first rounds of the Champions Cup.... So probably August/September would be more logical for suc agreement (that would be a criminal agreement because PIs would be without vacation... unless they do'nt play July tests!... remember "June tests" will be in July from 2020). Same thing for Africa for matches between the Boks and the rest.

In the Americas, Argentina must play the ARC full strenght to make a full Qualy possibile... but there is Super Rugby fucking the ARC calendar... this means Los Pumas matches should be outside the ARC period.... Late January?

In Asia it is easier.
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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 13:19

Rugby can't realistically have a qualifying system likes FIFA's, there's just too many obstacles in the way for there to be dedicated weekends globally for qualifiers, so each region is going to have to work out a time and date accordingly. As I posted a few pages back, I think the best way for rugby to do qualifiers is through a pyramid system, the higher you sit on the pyramid the better the odds of you qualifying are.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Bogdan_DC » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 13:54

thatrugbyguy wrote:I think the best way for rugby to do qualifiers is through a pyramid system, the higher you sit on the pyramid the better the odds of you qualifying are.

And how to change the actual status quo like this? Having almost the same teams at the World Cup?Rugby is like a closed club at the moment and we need to open the door.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby vino_93 » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 14:17

Bogdan_DC wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:I think the best way for rugby to do qualifiers is through a pyramid system, the higher you sit on the pyramid the better the odds of you qualifying are.

And how to change the actual status quo like this? Having almost the same teams at the World Cup?Rugby is like a closed club at the moment and we need to open the door.

You can change the qualification system, that won't change this. The only way is to open more spots at the RWC - increase to 24.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Osmanperalta » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 14:19

World rugby doesnt want changes in the world cup!! you not see it in 2015 they actually changed the format to make sure that the same countries qualify, in fact right now spain and romania should be at the world cup russia vs canada in the repechage, korea malaysia and hong kong fighting for a direct place and samoa already eliminated

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Bogdan_DC » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 14:28

vino_93 wrote:
Bogdan_DC wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:I think the best way for rugby to do qualifiers is through a pyramid system, the higher you sit on the pyramid the better the odds of you qualifying are.

And how to change the actual status quo like this? Having almost the same teams at the World Cup?Rugby is like a closed club at the moment and we need to open the door.

You can change the qualification system, that won't change this. The only way is to open more spots at the RWC - increase to 24.

We need both. For example i can see France, Italy or Scotland (team from few years ago) having a fair chance for losing in Bucharest, Tbilisi or Madrid. I'm not saying every time but in 21 years i'm sure that at least one time.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Bogdan_DC » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 14:29

Osmanperalta wrote:World rugby doesnt want changes in the world cup!! you not see it in 2015 they actually changed the format to make sure that the same countries qualify, in fact right now spain and romania should be at the world cup russia vs canada in the repechage, korea malaysia and hong kong fighting for a direct place and samoa already eliminated

:thumbup:

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Coloradoan » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 14:40

Why should Samoa be eliminated?

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Osmanperalta » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 14:47

for how they were the qualifying process in the last 2 world cups

olivier

Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby olivier » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 15:07

victorsra wrote:
10 rounds. 30 total matches.

When?

Don't tell me "when World Rugby orders" because you overestimate World Rugby's power over T1s and clubs. It is a tricky negociation always.

World Rugby council is slowly changing. But the fact is even tier 2 nations are selfish, they also want to gain from the close system.

For me the only possible "when" in Europe are those 2 bye weekends of the 6 Nations. With this, over 3 years, you have 6 dates when T1s can face T2s/3s. You need a shorter format, but possible.

Problem is 6N currently use an international window for his own benefit... 6N must deal alone with clubs if they want to keep the tournament. In fact they already give 10% of tournament revenues to clubs releasing players... Clubs are ready to loan players when they get money.
Open qualifying allow to generate more revenues and obtain loan of players.
Schedule is a false problem. Making money is.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Coloradoan » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 15:18

Osmanperalta wrote:for how they were the qualifying process in the last 2 world cups


Not sure I understand. Qualifying as Oceania 2 is quite a bit more difficult than qualifying as Americas 2 or Europe 2. What have these other regions proven to deserve extra spots over a region with 3 teams who are easily in the top 18 in the world?

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Osmanperalta » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 15:31

they only changed the format because Tonga Samoa did not get the direct qualification in the World Cup 2015!
What have these other regions proven to deserve extra spots over a region with 3 teams who are easily in the top 18 in the world?

Georgia finishing over tonga and japan winning samoa count for you?

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 15:41

Coloradoan wrote:Why should Samoa be eliminated?


They finished last in a race for 2 qualifying spots out of 3 teams. From the other 2 (!) nations playing 15s rugby in their federation, one apparently fielded wrong players (Tahiti) and the other one (or the cheating one, we don't know) will go to a playoff.

So a federation with 7 regular Unions playing 15s, from which one is basically non-existent as they have the size of a small town and plays basically only with expats (Cook Islands), from which 2 are already qualified gets 4 spots+2 possible repechage spots.

At the RWC 3/5 teams from Oceania failed to qualify. While from Europe just one team didn't qualify automatically (7/8). But that was already known before the RWC (8/8 was not possible) as Romania finished 4th behind 3 (!) other European teams. So a federation, where 7 teams are directly qualified with 41 nations playing 15s this year gets additional 1,725 spots. 34 Unions are fighting for this spot(s).

You don't have to be a math professor to realize that something is wrong here and the change of the qualification spots was basically a protectionist decision and hinders international rugby to grow.
Last edited by RugbyLiebe on Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 16:10, edited 2 times in total.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby victorsra » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 15:41

Yes, but Samoa is the favorite against Romania in the first playoff (sorry Romanians, but remember, favorite doesn't mean they will win!) and they would be favorites in the World Repechage too (sorry Canadians). Unlikely to see Samoa out...
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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby victorsra » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 15:43

What World Rugby did was to manage the spots to have exactly the same distribution of 2015, no matter that Japan and Georgia achieved the top 12 in 2015 and Fiji, Samoa and Tonga didn't.
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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Coloradoan » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 16:57

Osmanperalta wrote:they only changed the format because Tonga Samoa did not get the direct qualification in the World Cup 2015!
What have these other regions proven to deserve extra spots over a region with 3 teams who are easily in the top 18 in the world?

Georgia finishing over tonga and japan winning samoa count for you?


They didn't really change the format much. They keep the allocation of spots to regions the same, slightly decreasing Oceania and slightly increasing Europe.

The US, Canada and Uruguay all went winless in 2015, finishing bottom of their pools. None of the Oceania teams did that. Why aren't you advocating taking away from the Americas instead?

Anyway, what you and some others seem to be advocating is that Europe get an extra spot because of Georgia's performance in 2015. But that's asinine. Korea or Hong Kong shouldn't get a free spot to the RWC based on Japan's performance, nor should Mexico in the case of USA and Canada performing well. If a region wants extra spots in a RWC, the teams that would benefit from that extra spot need to prove their worth outside of RWCs.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Coloradoan » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 17:01

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:Why should Samoa be eliminated?


They finished last in a race for 2 qualifying spots out of 3 teams. From the other 2 (!) nations playing 15s rugby in their federation, one apparently fielded wrong players (Tahiti) and the other one (or the cheating one, we don't know) will go to a playoff.

So a federation with 7 regular Unions playing 15s, from which one is basically non-existent as they have the size of a small town and plays basically only with expats (Cook Islands), from which 2 are already qualified gets 4 spots+2 possible repechage spots.

At the RWC 3/5 teams from Oceania failed to qualify. While from Europe just one team didn't qualify automatically (7/8). But that was already known before the RWC (8/8 was not possible) as Romania finished 4th behind 3 (!) other European teams. So a federation, where 7 teams are directly qualified with 41 nations playing 15s this year gets additional 1,725 spots. 34 Unions are fighting for this spot(s).

You don't have to be a math professor to realize that something is wrong here and the change of the qualification spots was basically a protectionist decision and hinders international rugby to grow.


As I just explained to Osman in the post above this, it's not protectionist at all and singling out Oceania is wrongheaded. However, while I think your concern about Oceania's limited teams is not a big deal, I wouldn't mind seeing Asia and Oceania combined for RWCQs as the Americas are. The end result would be the exact same as it currently is though.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby victorsra » Thu, 01 Mar 2018, 17:44

I think your concern about Oceania's limited teams is not a big deal, I wouldn't mind seeing Asia and Oceania combined for RWCQs as the Americas are. The end result would be the exact same as it currently is though.


Exactly! It would be awesome a Pacific Rugby Championship, with Fiji, Samoa, Tonga, Japan, Hong Kong and Korea, just like what was done in the Americas. Hong Kong and Korea are in a situation that Brazil and Chile were before the ARC. The problem is to have the dates, again, as Japan has the Sunwolves/Top League calendars, PIs struggle with the European calendar.... it would need considerable efforts...

BTW, if the Sunwolves were like the Jaguares, basically the national team, it would be easier, because they could have Late January-Early February for some rounds.... but they are not...
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