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Increase the RWC to 24 teams

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Return_of_BG_97 » Tue, 08 Oct 2019, 01:58

Bruce89 wrote:The problem with some tier 2 nations is access to their players for example Spain and Romania have players in France but half the time the club's won't release them

The smaller nations need help creating pro leagues as Well so they can keep their players local as Well as playing overseas
Then the qualification system needs revamped I like how fifa do it in football it's not perfect but it works now more than ever you see more teams making their 1st world cups
Also if the 6 nations aren't going to allow any more teams to enter I.e Georgia then the powers should look into setting up continental tournaments and give more chance of smaller nations playing bigger nations and even getting a chance to host a tournamen which will give them huge exposure

As for expanding the world cup I think the goal should be to set it up as 32 team tournament you will have more competitive matches between smaller nations which could even give them confidence against bigger teams also it gives more nations more exposure


I agree with the domestic leagues idea, but once again it's a chicken or the egg sort of problem. Who is going to watch it? Who is going to support these clubs? Who is going to bring in the big money?

I think MLS in the USA is probably the greatest example of a new league setting itself up for success in what was once a very hostile country for soccer. But even then, MLS had the benefit of being the only pro soccer league in America with the big brand recognition. Compare it to the WNBA which basically lives in the NBA's shadows.

More importantly MLS found their niche audience (young urban men with relatively good income from diverse backgrounds) and has stuck with it. The Latin American unions think SLAR will be the magic bullet; I can only hope for the best (especially since pro rugby in South America is a very new concept).

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 08 Oct 2019, 03:40

4 groups of 6 is awful.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Edgar » Tue, 08 Oct 2019, 07:33

TheStroBro wrote:4 groups of 6 is awful.


Indeed. They would take an eternity and make it ridiculously difficult for any of the tier 2 teams to make it beyond the group stages. It would be more a case of attrition than anything, and teams would be worn out by the time they got to the playoffs. As it is, top teams have been taking a more strategical approach to the group stages and resting key players for games viewed as mere bumps on the road. Some of the final group encounters could easily end up as dead rubbers. Better to return to the more cutthroat environment of 4-team groups where every game was crucial. One less match per minnow, but the same number for the top 16, who would effectively play a more meaningful Octavos fixture in lieu of a 4th group match.

Victorsra wrote:

So going off rankings we'd have:

A: Scotland, Italy, Uruguay, HK - 2 spots
B: Argentina, Fiji, Spain, Namibia - 2 spots
----
C: NZ, Japan, USA, Canada - 3 spots
D: Wales, France, Georgia, Portugal - 3 spots
E: England, Australia, Samoa, Russia - 3 spots
F: Ireland, South Africa, Tonga, Romania - 3 spots

England vs Georgia
Italy vs South Africa

Wales vs Samoa
Scotland vs Japan

Ireland vs USA
Fiji vs Australia

NZ vs Tonga
Argentina vs France


Looked solid at first glance, and maybe it could work, but when I imagined it in practice I perceived its major flaw: Teams in groups C to F need only win once to earn their place in the Octavos. They might even do so on the back of a draw. Georgia, Samoa and Tonga would simply focus on beating Portugal, Russia and Romania, for instance, and hardly concern themselves with their first tier opponents. But if the six third-placed teams were in a dogfight for 4 spots in the Octavos, that would provide more incentive for all involved. No team would be able to win once and rest on their laurels.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 08 Oct 2019, 08:08

Based off the currently world rankings here's what a randomised draw would look like in 4 years:

Pool A - Ireland, Italy, Samoa, Hong Kong
Pool B - Wales, Argentina, Tonga, Canada
Pool C - England, France, Spain, Romania
Pool D - South Africa, Fiji, USA, Russia
Pool E - Australia, Scotland, Georgia, Portugal
Pool F - New Zealand, Japan, Uruguay, Namibia

The thing I've noticed about the existing format is we tend to get a lot of the same teams playing in the same groups. Australia has gotten Wales and Fiji in their group 3 out of the last 4 World Cups. New Zealand have played Italy 3 times in the last 5 World Cups. Mostly because we get the same teams occupying the top 8 rankings. We're going to get a greater variety of groups if we have bands of 6 teams for the World Cup draw.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby MLB3BB2 » Tue, 08 Oct 2019, 12:57

I like the 24-team RWC idea with 6 pools of 4, but I think a round of 16 would produce a number of worthless matches. I'd rather see the top 4 finishers get byes with the next 8 teams playing the first elimination round. That way only the top 2 teams in each pool move on. If the number of teams automatically qualifying for the following RWC were increased to 15, the 6 3rd-place finishers could play a round of 3 matches in the smaller venues with the winners getting the qualifying berths (plus an extra match vs competition at a similar level).

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 08 Oct 2019, 13:31

MLB3BB2 wrote:I like the 24-team RWC idea with 6 pools of 4, but I think a round of 16 would produce a number of worthless matches. I'd rather see the top 4 finishers get byes with the next 8 teams playing the first elimination round. That way only the top 2 teams in each pool move on. If the number of teams automatically qualifying for the following RWC were increased to 15, the 6 3rd-place finishers could play a round of 3 matches in the smaller venues with the winners getting the qualifying berths (plus an extra match vs competition at a similar level).


I'm not sure what you mean by a "worthless match", as we don't know a match's worth until it is played.

This format could be done, it would mean the best sides play a match less (which can be spun as either a good or bad thing tbh), but the tournament overall is still 48 matches. Those 4 sides would also have an extra week rest before the QFs, again this can be seen as a good thing (rested) or a bad thing (out of rhythm), English play offs decided the extra week before the final was a bad thing so went to even semi finals, so it is not a given that teams will prefer the rest.

I still prefer a R16 as the best option all things considered.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 08 Oct 2019, 18:18

Blurandski wrote:
rey200 wrote:
victorsra wrote:
Formats like that also encourage thrashing the smaller teams, rather than easing off after four tries, as often happens now.

My preferred solution is to give a few pools an extra Ro16 slot from the start in return for a harder (higher seeded) pool. Also helps keep a fixed bracket.


Like this? Using the Ranking to seed:

A: 01, 07, 18, 24 - 2 spots - NZ, FRA, URU, HKG
B: 02, 08, 17, 23 - 2 spots - WAL, JAP, SPA, BRA
----
C: 03, 12, 13, 22 - 3 spots - ENG, ITA, USA, NAM
D: 04, 11, 14, 21 - 3 spots - IRE, FIJ, GEO, CAN
E: 05, 10, 15, 20 - 3 spots - SA, ARG, TON, RUS
F: 06, 09, 16, 19 - 3 spots - AUS, SCO, SAM, ROM

Could work!


oh man, I've tried to "improve" your idea and now i clicked somewhere and everything is gone. The base of the idea is to have imbalanced groups, where - without any upsets - the round of 16 is played like this: 1st vs 16th, 2nd vs 15th ... 8th vs 9th. Everything according to the seeding the draw is based on. I'll write it down again, but it took me some time... and I don't have the will to continue now :|

edit:
A: 09, 12, 18, 24 - 2 spots
B: 10, 11, 17, 23 - 2 spots
----
C: 01, 08, 13, 22 - 3 spots
D: 02, 07, 14, 21 - 3 spots
E: 03, 06, 15, 20 - 3 spots
F: 04, 05, 16, 19 - 3 spots

ladder:


E1 vs D3
A2 vs F2

D1 vs E3
A1 vs C2

F1 vs C3
B2 vs E2

C1 vs F3
B1 vs D2

no group game rematches until the semis.


Exactly! It keeps the fixed bracket, doesn't encourage thrashing smaller sides, and is decently fair (imo). It's far preferable to the 'best' third place nonsense.

So going off rankings we'd have:

A: Scotland, Italy, Uruguay, HK - 2 spots
B: Argentina, Fiji, Spain, Namibia - 2 spots
----
C: NZ, Japan, USA, Canada - 3 spots
D: Wales, France, Georgia, Portugal - 3 spots
E: England, Australia, Samoa, Russia - 3 spots
F: Ireland, South Africa, Tonga, Romania - 3 spots

England vs Georgia
Italy vs South Africa

Wales vs Samoa
Scotland vs Japan

Ireland vs USA
Fiji vs Australia

NZ vs Tonga
Argentina vs France


It basically means, that being ranked 19th or 20th one year out of the world cup gives you a way better chance of making the next stage than being ranked 17th or 18th.
I see where you all coming from, but shouldn't the World Cup itself determine who is worth to move on?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby rey200 » Tue, 08 Oct 2019, 18:21

That's true, but I think this system is quite fair besides this - in my opinion - little flaw. I'd still prefer the FIFA/UEFA system tbh
Ceterum censeo Sex Nationes esse augendas.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 09 Oct 2019, 00:34

Round of 16 throws up the possibility of a big nation making an early exist from the tournament, and a lower ranked nation making a surprise run into the quarterfinals / semi-finals. We could also get the situation where two T1 nations actually meet in the first Round of the Round of 16 if one team screws up in the pool stage. There's more at stake for T1 nations, meaning lower ranked teams are more likely to play with a bit more risk. Imagine when Tonga beat France in 2011 that match was a Round of 16 game.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby victorsra » Wed, 09 Oct 2019, 00:44

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Blurandski wrote:
rey200 wrote:
victorsra wrote:
Formats like that also encourage thrashing the smaller teams, rather than easing off after four tries, as often happens now.

My preferred solution is to give a few pools an extra Ro16 slot from the start in return for a harder (higher seeded) pool. Also helps keep a fixed bracket.


Like this? Using the Ranking to seed:

A: 01, 07, 18, 24 - 2 spots - NZ, FRA, URU, HKG
B: 02, 08, 17, 23 - 2 spots - WAL, JAP, SPA, BRA
----
C: 03, 12, 13, 22 - 3 spots - ENG, ITA, USA, NAM
D: 04, 11, 14, 21 - 3 spots - IRE, FIJ, GEO, CAN
E: 05, 10, 15, 20 - 3 spots - SA, ARG, TON, RUS
F: 06, 09, 16, 19 - 3 spots - AUS, SCO, SAM, ROM

Could work!


oh man, I've tried to "improve" your idea and now i clicked somewhere and everything is gone. The base of the idea is to have imbalanced groups, where - without any upsets - the round of 16 is played like this: 1st vs 16th, 2nd vs 15th ... 8th vs 9th. Everything according to the seeding the draw is based on. I'll write it down again, but it took me some time... and I don't have the will to continue now :|

edit:
A: 09, 12, 18, 24 - 2 spots
B: 10, 11, 17, 23 - 2 spots
----
C: 01, 08, 13, 22 - 3 spots
D: 02, 07, 14, 21 - 3 spots
E: 03, 06, 15, 20 - 3 spots
F: 04, 05, 16, 19 - 3 spots

ladder:


E1 vs D3
A2 vs F2

D1 vs E3
A1 vs C2

F1 vs C3
B2 vs E2

C1 vs F3
B1 vs D2

no group game rematches until the semis.


Exactly! It keeps the fixed bracket, doesn't encourage thrashing smaller sides, and is decently fair (imo). It's far preferable to the 'best' third place nonsense.

So going off rankings we'd have:

A: Scotland, Italy, Uruguay, HK - 2 spots
B: Argentina, Fiji, Spain, Namibia - 2 spots
----
C: NZ, Japan, USA, Canada - 3 spots
D: Wales, France, Georgia, Portugal - 3 spots
E: England, Australia, Samoa, Russia - 3 spots
F: Ireland, South Africa, Tonga, Romania - 3 spots

England vs Georgia
Italy vs South Africa

Wales vs Samoa
Scotland vs Japan

Ireland vs USA
Fiji vs Australia

NZ vs Tonga
Argentina vs France


It basically means, that being ranked 19th or 20th one year out of the world cup gives you a way better chance of making the next stage than being ranked 17th or 18th.
I see where you all coming from, but shouldn't the World Cup itself determine who is worth to move on?


Yes, probably. As I said, if WR expands it to 24, I hardly doubt they'll invent anything. It will be the traditional 24-teams model with R16 based on merit.
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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby antlat » Wed, 09 Oct 2019, 01:04

The Rugby League World Cup utilises wieghted Pools in there World Cup and it creates nothing but confusion.
Netball in 2015 also had weighted Pools.

I absolutely hated it!

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby victorsra » Wed, 09 Oct 2019, 01:09

Just simulating how the schedule would be with 6 groups of 4 (and keeping the current number of days):

Friday: A
Saturday: A, B, B, C (like 1PM, 3:30 PM, 6PM, 8:30 PM)
Sunday: C, D, D
Monday: E
Tuesday: E
Wednesday: F
Thursday: F
Friday: A
Saturday: A, B, B, C
Sunday: C, D, D
Monday: E
Tuesday: E
Wednesday: F
Thursday: F
Friday:
Saturday: A+A (same time), B+B (same time)
Sunday: C+C (same time), D+D (same time)
Monday: E+E (same time)
Tuesday: F+F (same time)
Wednesday:
Thursday:
Friday: R16
Saturday: R16, R16, R16
Sunday: R16, R16, R16
Monday: R16
Tuesday:
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday
Saturday: QF, QF
Sunday: QF, QF
Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday
Saturday: SF
Sunday: SF
Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday: 3rd
Saturday: Final
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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 09 Oct 2019, 04:09

Why would you have the last round of pool matches at the same time?

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 09 Oct 2019, 06:26

To make it fair. It is totally normal to have both fixtures in a pool kick off so no one has the advantage of knowing what they need to do.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 09 Oct 2019, 07:02

thatrugbyguy wrote:Round of 16 throws up the possibility of a big nation making an early exist from the tournament, and a lower ranked nation making a surprise run into the quarterfinals / semi-finals. We could also get the situation where two T1 nations actually meet in the first Round of the Round of 16 if one team screws up in the pool stage. There's more at stake for T1 nations, meaning lower ranked teams are more likely to play with a bit more risk. Imagine when Tonga beat France in 2011 that match was a Round of 16 game.


That's another important point.
I mean, we all knew from the beginning 6 teams who would make the quarters, with one place contested between England/France/Argentina. The only surprise is Japan (and I will only believe it, when they really made it).
There are more stories to tell, something rugby lacks most of the time as the same teams play each other over and over and over again.
The top4 lucky 3rds create exactly this. Stories who fails, who makes it, and an exciting group phase, where a lot of teams can still make headlines.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby victorsra » Wed, 09 Oct 2019, 07:30

thatrugbyguy wrote:Why would you have the last round of pool matches at the same time?


That's how it works with all soccer competitions with groups of 4. In a RWC with groups of 5 is doesn't make sense, but in groups of 4 it does.
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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 09 Oct 2019, 07:34

sk 88 wrote:To make it fair. It is totally normal to have both fixtures in a pool kick off so no one has the advantage of knowing what they need to do.


Rugby isn't soccer though.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby victorsra » Wed, 09 Oct 2019, 07:35

but it makes sense, specially in a model that qualifies 3 teams out of 4 in the groups phase.
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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 09 Oct 2019, 07:39

Yeah, but rugby isn't the type of sport where teams can play for a draw. And besides, I doubt you'll find a rugby player who doesn't want to win whatever game they play.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 09 Oct 2019, 07:42

thatrugbyguy wrote:Yeah, but rugby isn't the type of sport where teams can play for a draw. And besides, I doubt you'll find a rugby player who doesn't want to win whatever game they play.


But rugby is the sport with bonus points awarded that can make a huge difference.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby victorsra » Wed, 09 Oct 2019, 07:45

Ok, agree, so:

Friday: A
Saturday: A, B, B, C (like 1PM, 3:30 PM, 6PM, 8:30 PM)
Sunday: C, D, D
Monday: E
Tuesday: E
Wednesday: F
Thursday: F
Friday: A
Saturday: A, B, B, C
Sunday: C, D, D
Monday: E
Tuesday: E
Wednesday: F
Thursday: F
Friday: A
Saturday: A, B, B, C
Sunday: C, D, D, E
Monday: E
Tuesday: F, F (both matches need to be this day to be 5 days after last day and 5 days before the R16... trying to give at least 5 days for all teams in all matches)
Wednesday:
Thursday:
Friday: R16
Saturday: R16, R16, R16
Sunday: R16, R16, R16
Monday: R16
Tuesday:
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday
Saturday: QF, QF
Sunday: QF, QF
Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday
Saturday: SF
Sunday: SF
Monday
Tuesday
Wednesday
Thursday
Friday: 3rd
Saturday: Final
Last edited by victorsra on Wed, 09 Oct 2019, 07:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby victorsra » Wed, 09 Oct 2019, 07:46

RugbyLiebe wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:Yeah, but rugby isn't the type of sport where teams can play for a draw. And besides, I doubt you'll find a rugby player who doesn't want to win whatever game they play.


But rugby is the sport with bonus points awarded that can make a huge difference.


Also true.

So, there you are 2 schedule variations.

Also, week days are better with only 1 match, while Saturdays can easily have 4.
Last edited by victorsra on Wed, 09 Oct 2019, 07:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 09 Oct 2019, 07:46

If you can tell me scenario where teams could potentially collude with each other to prevent another team from qualifying I'd like to hear it, because the scoring method of rugby as far as I can tell more or less prevents that type of situation from happening.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby mcv_T2 » Wed, 09 Oct 2019, 14:29

thatrugbyguy wrote:If you can tell me scenario where teams could potentially collude with each other to prevent another team from qualifying I'd like to hear it, because the scoring method of rugby as far as I can tell more or less prevents that type of situation from happening.


OK. Then imagine this hypothetical group...

The classification before the last round is:

Group A:
England ...... 10 points
Argentina ... 6 points
Georgia ...... 4 points
Namibia ...... 3 points

And the last round is:

13:00 - Argentina x Georgia
17:00 - England x Namíbia

If Argentina beat Georgia by 30 x 7 in this last round, they get 5 points and Georgia get 0 points. At the table Argentina will have 11 points, and Georgia the same 4 points.
Then, before start their game at 17:00, Namibia will be able to know they need just two bonus points to surpass Georgia at the table (and be one of the first 3rd). The same with England: they will know they just need two points to be the number one at the group.

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Re: Increase the RWC to 24 teams

Postby Amargo » Wed, 09 Oct 2019, 15:29

thatrugbyguy wrote:If you can tell me scenario where teams could potentially collude with each other to prevent another team from qualifying I'd like to hear it, because the scoring method of rugby as far as I can tell more or less prevents that type of situation from happening.

If New Zeland and Italy settled for a 150 to 20 victory for Italy with four tries for New Zealand, then South Africa would be out of the World Cup.

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