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2017 Americas Rugby Championship

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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 09 Mar 2017, 21:25

Coloradoan wrote:Rugby Canada now complaining about using rankings points for the ARC, presumably in response to the criticism of the team's current all-time low world ranking: http://lethbridgeherald.com/sports/nati ... -arc-drop/


There's no point to this competition then if it just becomes 'A' sides.

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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby victorsra » Thu, 09 Mar 2017, 22:09

But if Canada and USA wanted their full strenght sides European clubs would have to release them, right? It is 6N window.
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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Thu, 09 Mar 2017, 22:19

victorsra wrote:But if Canada and USA wanted their full strenght sides European clubs would have to release them, right? It is 6N window.


It sounds like it. But as Anscombe points out in the link above these players would then be at risk of never winning another contract in Europe. And since there is no sign of professional rugby coming to Canada any time soon that would create a very bleak situation for those players.

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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby 4N » Thu, 09 Mar 2017, 22:30

thatrugbyguy wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:Rugby Canada now complaining about using rankings points for the ARC, presumably in response to the criticism of the team's current all-time low world ranking: http://lethbridgeherald.com/sports/nati ... -arc-drop/


There's no point to this competition then if it just becomes 'A' sides.


Would kill it stone dead, like many tried and failed T2 tournaments before it.

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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 09 Mar 2017, 22:41

Exactly. The entire point of the ARC was to develop a solid international competition in the region. We can't have a situation where the only players released during the 6 Nations window are the 6 Nations players, the whole reason the ARC is played at the same time is to take advantage of that release window, otherwise there's no point in playing the tournament when it's freezing cold in Vancouver. World Rugby needs to step in, it can't be one rule for the 6N players and another for everyone else.

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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby victorsra » Thu, 09 Mar 2017, 23:16

It sounds like it. But as Anscombe points out in the link above these players would then be at risk of never winning another contract in Europe. And since there is no sign of professional rugby coming to Canada any time soon that would create a very bleak situation for those players.


Unless Top 14, Premiership and PRO12 stop in the 6N window. Again going back to the European club rugby calendar...
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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 09 Mar 2017, 23:22

Canada has a point. But hey, it's the same issue with Rugby Europe competitions and even June window... What should we do, don't hold Tier 2 and 3 official games unless it is in a World Cup?

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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 09 Mar 2017, 23:32

World Rugby is talking about a standard Calendar, well, let's standardize the Calendar. John Mitchell wasn't the one frothing at the mouth with the lack of full availability for his players from Top14, Pro12, and Aviva. He made some snide remarks, but it was the US Rugby Press in Goff that did an awesome analysis of it. Nigel Melville made a deal with the RFU on player availability that has done nothing for us and USAR isn't about to ask it's players to come home for the entire tournament. . .we did that last year after that lovely loss, Clever came home and was then fully released from Newcastle. The Premiership seems to have no issues with screwing players, these clubs would get roasted by the media in US if it were a mainstream sport. But the only ones covering Rugby are the Rugby Media.

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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby victorsra » Fri, 10 Mar 2017, 01:30

The global calendar will never solve the European clubs vs unions issue. Why?

European professional clubs play 24 (22+ playoffs in the British Isles) to 29 (26 + playoffs in France) rounds in domestic leagues + 9-rounds European Cups = 38 rounds. French 2nd division has 32 rounds (30+playoffs)! It will obviously have club rugby and national teams clashing. Rugby is played once a week, it is not like football that can be played twice a week. Who pays the salaries will of course make more pression.

The clubs pay the players' salaries. The Unions can't say f*ck off to clubs unless the Unions start to pay them and compete with clubs (which turns the national team into clubs...).

Just to note, we are talking about a 40-weeks season, from September to May (as June is for national teams, july for vacation and august pre-season... although the French Top 14 starts in August).

For me the first part of the solution is to deal with those club season in a way that clubs have two types of national competitions, the "prime" competitions, the Leagues, with a reduced number of matches (more or less with the number of rounds Super Rugby has) and the "other" competitions (like the Anglo-Wlesh Cup) that clubs won't have national team players. European Cup + National League should have maximum of 30 matches together (Super Rugby has 20... but European doesn't have those distances).

Clubs could still play 40 matches in the year, but 9 in the European Cup, 20/21 in the domestic league and the other 10/11 in a second national competition (a national cup? like the Anglo-Welsh Cup) without national teams players, with World Rugby backing this. But this is only possible if Europeans understand and accept rugby is not soccer and you can't have a round robin home and away league with all players available. However, even with this, T2/3 players can lose jobs because they are only wanted to replace T1 internationals. At least the main leagues woudn't be affected and maybe the clubs woudn't press the players about national cups. It is the Southern Hemisphere Super Rugby/National Leagues system adapted to Europe.
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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby Coloradoan » Fri, 10 Mar 2017, 01:45

TheStroBro wrote:World Rugby is talking about a standard Calendar, well, let's standardize the Calendar. John Mitchell wasn't the one frothing at the mouth with the lack of full availability for his players from Top14, Pro12, and Aviva. He made some snide remarks, but it was the US Rugby Press in Goff that did an awesome analysis of it. Nigel Melville made a deal with the RFU on player availability that has done nothing for us and USAR isn't about to ask it's players to come home for the entire tournament. . .we did that last year after that lovely loss, Clever came home and was then fully released from Newcastle. The Premiership seems to have no issues with screwing players, these clubs would get roasted by the media in US if it were a mainstream sport. But the only ones covering Rugby are the Rugby Media.


You keep posting about a deal Nigel Melville made but you're not right about it applying to this tournament. The player availability deal was done for November, in order to get Premiership players available for the NZ Maori match. That match was outside the test window and Premiership clubs get big fines for allowing players to play outside test window. As such, a deal had to be done with the Prem to trade availability for the Maori match for matches in the November test window. It does not apply to this tournament, which takes place inside a different test window. Criticize the deal all you want, and I tend to agree, but it has nothing to do with this tournament.

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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 10 Mar 2017, 02:22

I agree that in reality rugby is not the type of sport which lends itself to a 24-26 week regular season league. For as much crap as the Super Rugby and SANZAAR schedule gets it's got the right balance IMO between club and international games. 17-18 league games + 12-13 international matches = 30 games. The only way I thing I think you can do in Europe is either set up a Super Rugby style franchise system in the French and English leagues, or reduce the number of teams in each competition to 10. That leaves you with 18 regular season games, 2 playoff matches, + 11-12 internationals.

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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby victorsra » Fri, 10 Mar 2017, 03:33

Premiership could work with:

- 1st phase of 12 rounds (everybody against everybody once + 1 extra derby);
- 2nd phase: 5 rounds - Group A with 6 best teams / Group B with 6 worst teams (3 best team in each group with 3 home matches);
- Playoffs: Semifinals (4 best of Group A) + Final / Champions Cup Qualy - Semifinals (2 worst of Group A + 2 best of Group B) / relegation for Group B worst
Total: 19 rounds, instead of 24. National teams earned 5 weeks with less pression over players.

This is completed with the expansion of the Anglo-Welsh Cup (worthing something... a Champions Cup spot?), with 2 groups of 8 = 8 matches (everybody against everybody once + 1 extra derby) + Quarter finals + Semifinals + Final
Total: 11 rounds

Premiership + AW Cup Total: 19 + 11 = 30

This also means a minimum of 12 home matches. Today the minimum of home matches for Premiership+Anglo-Welsh Cup is 13. But there are more chances of playoffs.


Top 14 could do almost the same :

- 1st phase of 13 rounds (everybody against everybody once);
- 2nd phase: Group A with 6 best teams, 5 rounds / Group B with 8 worst teams, 7 rounds (no playoffs, just relegation and a Champions Cup spot for the best);
- Playoffs: Semifinals (4 best of Group A) + Final
Total: 20 rounds, instead of 29.

+ new Mediterranean Cup with 2 Italians = 16 teams. The same as the Anglo-Welsh = 11 rounds

Its a way to break the ortodox round robin home and away system without cutting clubs and restricting the premium competition to 20 weeks. After all, there is no meritocracy anyway in a round robin competition in which clubs play some opponents full strenght and other opponents without international players and it is happening now. The fixtures already affect the final results.
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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby NaBUru38 » Fri, 10 Mar 2017, 15:15

victorsra wrote:Ok but at least on TV it looked like a bad attendance.


It wasn't terrible, but it wasn't great either.

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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 10 Mar 2017, 21:34

victorsra wrote:But if Canada and USA wanted their full strenght sides European clubs would have to release them, right? It is 6N window.


Its not about the clubs "blocking" or the unions "not wanting their full strength side". Its the realpolitik of the situation. The players are in competition for contracts. If they fuck off for 5 weeks they will, at best, receive 5 weeks less pay and at worst be told fuck off themselves as the contract will go to someone who does turn up every week. The best ones can force their hand but does Samu Manoa want to use up some goodwill on going to this comp? Compare where Mamuka Gorgadze ALWAYS turns up for a few Georgia REC tests because it is that much more meaningful.

The Euro season isn't going to stop for 8 weeks in the middle of its season, there is no point speculating on it. It will never happen.

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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby victorsra » Fri, 10 Mar 2017, 22:59

8 no, but they are discussing to make the competition in 5 weeks, no byes. And that can make it possible. Of course it is realpolitik, that why the most important think to discuss is the club season and how to harmonize it with the national teams. That is what I am defending. All the rest is what we call in Portuguese "rain in the wet" :lol:
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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 11 Mar 2017, 02:48

thatrugbyguy wrote:I agree that in reality rugby is not the type of sport which lends itself to a 24-26 week regular season league. For as much crap as the Super Rugby and SANZAAR schedule gets it's got the right balance IMO between club and international games. 17-18 league games + 12-13 international matches = 30 games. The only way I thing I think you can do in Europe is either set up a Super Rugby style franchise system in the French and English leagues, or reduce the number of teams in each competition to 10. That leaves you with 18 regular season games, 2 playoff matches, + 11-12 internationals.


I think with the hoghly physical nature of the game and the ever increasing levels of athleticism we are seeing from those playing the game at a professional level we need to take into account player welfare above all else. I was once of the opinion that more Rugby the better but have since come around to the idea that professional leagues shouldn't runvany longer than 18 rounds.

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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 11 Mar 2017, 02:56

A full home and away league season only works if there's isn't a big international schedule to contend with. Even tier 3 nations are now racking up close to 10 test matches a season.

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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 11 Mar 2017, 03:05

thatrugbyguy wrote:A full home and away league season only works if there's isn't a big international schedule to contend with. Even tier 3 nations are now racking up close to 10 test matches a season.


Looking at Europe they also have the Champions Cup/Trophy etc. structures. Which add games. So I actually think they could afford to reduce there overall league games to 16 and still play a full season for all clubs.

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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 11 Mar 2017, 06:29

The idea of teams in Aviva playing their premiership schedule and the Anglo Welsh Cup amazes me...the RFU must think this is soccer and their bodies don't get torn to smitherines. There's a reason the NFL schedule is 30 bloody weeks long.

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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 11 Mar 2017, 06:49

TheStroBro wrote:The idea of teams in Aviva playing their premiership schedule and the Anglo Welsh Cup amazes me...the RFU must think this is soccer and their bodies don't get torn to smitherines. There's a reason the NFL schedule is 30 bloody weeks long.


Becoming an even more avid American Football fan has helped with my change in perspective. In terms of physicality AF is probably the closest game in that respect to Rugby. Even more so than League believe it or not. The human body can take amazing punishment at times but we're talking about one off not consecutive impacts equivalent to a car crash in a single game. Something has to give. A reduction in games needs to be seriously looked into. With the Euro structures teams would still play 20 games a season minimum. You really wouldn't lose that much but would lessen the load on the players. Which is something we need to understand that without them we don't have a product at all.

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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 11 Mar 2017, 06:57

I took have changed my perspective over the years. I use to be frustrated that the Super Rugby local derbies were never a full home and away scheduling, but I've since come around to understanding how gruelling the season is when you factor in travel. Right now I'm not opposed to Super Rugby reverting to a single round of matches against each team for 17 games, plus a top 8 knockout stage for 20 matches.

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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 11 Mar 2017, 07:22

thatrugbyguy wrote:I took have changed my perspective over the years. I use to be frustrated that the Super Rugby local derbies were never a full home and away scheduling, but I've since come around to understanding how gruelling the season is when you factor in travel. Right now I'm not opposed to Super Rugby reverting to a single round of matches against each team for 17 games, plus a top 8 knockout stage for 20 matches.


I'm against the single round model because of the level of travel it would demand. More pointedly, the effect of crossing multiple timezones and its effect on the players rest and recovery. The conference system is the best model. It's just the current four conference model is rubbish. It should be 3 x 6 with a first phase of 10 rounds involving derbies and the a second phase where teams are split into three further pools based on their rankings from the first. This would cut travel down a lot.

The Jaguares are in a difficult position but being aligned with the NZ would lessen that with direct flights between BA and Auckland.

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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 11 Mar 2017, 08:33

I believe Air New Zealand started doing direct flights to Buenos Aries once the Pumas joined the RC, and it's a shorter flight than it is to Jo'burg. I do like your idea however, 10 derby games, top three in each group split into 3 pools for four additional home and away games, pool winners plus best runner up into semi finals. Maximum 16 game season.

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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 11 Mar 2017, 15:52

My Recap for the ARC is live: https://youtu.be/RC362lVHvRk

Since Rugby Canada had an interesting reaction I think they've earned a guest episode on US Rugby Issues.

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Re: 2017 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby carbonero » Sat, 11 Mar 2017, 16:13

That format could mean at least three trips to Oceania in just four months (plus one more in the RC). If that happens, Jaguares will have to pull out eventually. The 16 hour time diference takes a much bigger toll than a slightly longer flight to Johanesbourg.

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