Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

SUPER RUGBY 2017

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby carbonero » Sun, 14 May 2017, 17:33

What's the option? It is faux national team or no professional rugby at all

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Sun, 14 May 2017, 17:39

Plus crowds have been quite good in Tokyo and Buenos Aires, even though the sides haven't had lots to cheer about yet.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Thomas » Sun, 14 May 2017, 19:17

carbonero wrote:What's the option? It is faux national team or no professional rugby at all


UAR needs to sort the issue of not having professional teams in their local clubs. it's going to persist until the domestic competition is sorted.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby carbonero » Sun, 14 May 2017, 19:38

How? No club wants to be professional

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 14 May 2017, 23:20

sk 88 wrote:Jaguares seem to have dropped right off, judging from results only. I'm really not convinced by these faux-national teams.

Well the argies sure are. Their attendance is probably the highest in Super Rugby. South African attendance is the worst across the whole competition.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 15 May 2017, 07:33

The Jaguares have already gained two points more than in the last season. Hence they are improving based on hard facts (yeah you can always discuss who they played, but that would just be the usual whining). They have great attendances. What the bloody hell should they do? Win it?
Do you really love rugby, to bring something like this even up? This is how expansions work. Bloody insular mentality. :x
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Thomas » Mon, 15 May 2017, 09:05

carbonero wrote:How? No club wants to be professional


I don't know what the answer is, the provinces are autonomous and the clubs are very strong. the carrot is to build the pool of professional players and stop relying too much on domestic and include the European pool. Based on performances Jaguares so far have done very well even better than last year. things are going to get harder from now on not easier.

Something has to give.
Last edited by Thomas on Mon, 15 May 2017, 15:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 15 May 2017, 10:10

RugbyLiebe wrote:The Jaguares have already gained two points more than in the last season. Hence they are improving based on hard facts (yeah you can always discuss who they played, but that would just be the usual whining). They have great attendances. What the bloody hell should they do? Win it?
Do you really love rugby, to bring something like this even up? This is how expansions work. Bloody insular mentality. :x



Results dropping off from earlier this season is what I meant, I accept that wasn't totally clear from the first post.

Is it helping Rugby in argentina? The national side is no better, finished 4th in RWC playing brilliant rugby before Jaguares remember, and it puts all the eggs in one basket. We've seen them chose to lose all their European based players so now only Jaguares players are playing regular professional rugby and available for selection. I also think it makes the national team less special, as let's face it it now plays 20 times a year and regularly losses to provincial teams. It undermines international rugby's claim to be the best.

I'm a big fan of Argentinean teams in Super Rugby but not only having one team AND refusing to select players who chose to make their careers elsewhere. Japan for instance doesn't limit its self to solely Sunwolves players.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 15 May 2017, 11:54

Fair enough, got that wrong then.

Let's face it: it doesn't matter middle or long time how they are in one single season. The seasons over season trend is already facing upwards.

They don't get smashed, their players gain experience on the highest possible level.
So Argentina gets a bigger player base. If only Jaguares players should be selected in the long run - that's another question. But in short term? Off course. How would you have even started your franchise without that kind of pressure?

Also the good attendance might lead to them not losing money on it, which is another great thing. Also it leads to more kids seeing their stars play, which for sure leads to them wanting to be like their stars.

Also the national team, even with the debatable decision to exclude all foreign based players, will have better results - simply because they train together all year. Something which is just nearly accompished by the Kiwis. And no it won't be less special because the Argentinian national team is not England who play their majority of games at home. Within the last year, they played twice at Twickenham (even one home game) and just once in Buenos Aires i.e.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 15 May 2017, 13:43

Two points there though are up for debate.

1) The player pool. I don't agree that it makes it bigger. Arguably it makes it smaller as fewer players are featuring regularly at the top level. Argentina seem to be struggling to find a reserve hooker at the moment for instance.

2) That training together all year automatically improves your results. Only if you are being well coached with good selection and tactics.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Thomas » Mon, 15 May 2017, 15:13

if you include the European pool there is not enough players goes back to the domestic situation. I agree the crowds are great and it has the making of a self sufficient franchise but you need players to make it successful and win more games.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 15 May 2017, 15:35

sk 88 wrote:Two points there though are up for debate.

1) The player pool. I don't agree that it makes it bigger. Arguably it makes it smaller as fewer players are featuring regularly at the top level. Argentina seem to be struggling to find a reserve hooker at the moment for instance.

2) That training together all year automatically improves your results. Only if you are being well coached with good selection and tactics.


1) how was it more players before? Argentina definitely has more pro players since joining Super Rugby.

2) lets face it: this is the biggest difference between t1&t2 and the rest. Why are the gaps closing? Not because of some wonder coaches going on. Simply because t3 teams spent way more time together than they used to. Why did Germany beat Uruguay and Romania? Because they practiced weeks if not months together - a thing they never ever did before like 2 years ago. That's also what RWC-tier3-nations do. That's why the point difference get smaller. It won't make them beat the top nations, but a more pro-environment does indeed help to get results closer.

Off course on Argentina's level that's probably not enough. But they came really far before they practiced all year around together. Lets see what they can do at the RWC 2019. If I was in charge that would be my peaking time. For this season my peaking time would be the Rugby Championship nothing else to aim for than take one or two scalps and finish 3rd. Last year it was about creating the additional stamina over so many games on such a high playing level in Super Rugby and than take a scalp in RC, which they did by beating South Africa.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 15 May 2017, 15:37

Thomas wrote:if you include the European pool there is not enough players goes back to the domestic situation. I agree the crowds are great and it has the making of a self sufficient franchise but you need players to make it successful and win more games.


So what would be the goal for you if you were in charge of the whole Argentinian Jaguares/ national team setup? I mean even the Kiwi Super Rugby franchise have one single goal. Create the players that the All Blacks stays the number 1 nation in the world... And they just made it clear again, that nothing else counts, when they insisted that the play SA-teams every year instead of having regional conferences.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby carbonero » Tue, 16 May 2017, 03:47

The exclusion of European players made sense at first. It was the only way to make Jaguares competitive from the get go. There was also at the time the prospect of adding another franchise to broaden the player pool.

Now the conditions have changed. The Pumas tanked in 2016 showing worrying signs of exhaustion. The breakout star of the season left. The third choice hooker left. And the renewal of contracts for 2018 seems slow.

To make matters worse, Agustin Pichot has already accepted that the second franchise will never come to fruition. The other day he was talking about proposing an Argentine quota of 1 or 2 players on other SR sides (doesn’t seem likely after the change of format). He also opened the door for the return of Isa, Imhoff, etc., although that was later denied by the UAR president.

Pichot is basically admitting defeat which is healthy. It is pretty clear that the exclusion of overseas players will eventually fall. The priority now is getting better coaches for 2018. Perez has been dreadful so he is already out. Hourcade’s contract is up at the end of the year.

If you ask me, open the floodgates. Let the players leave to Europe. Forget about any sort of exclusions. And invest the money on elite coaching. Our younger players showed that they belonged in Super Rugby and the Pumitas talent pipeline looks solid. I think that with the right direction Jaguares could be what the Cheetahs have been recently: young, attacking, reckless and fun to watch. That way we would really increase the player pool.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Thomas » Tue, 16 May 2017, 09:57

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Thomas wrote:if you include the European pool there is not enough players goes back to the domestic situation. I agree the crowds are great and it has the making of a self sufficient franchise but you need players to make it successful and win more games.


So what would be the goal for you if you were in charge of the whole Argentinian Jaguares/ national team setup? I mean even the Kiwi Super Rugby franchise have one single goal. Create the players that the All Blacks stays the number 1 nation in the world... And they just made it clear again, that nothing else counts, when they insisted that the play SA-teams every year instead of having regional conferences.


Taking a leaf of NZ Rugby I would use a pyramid approach with the Pumas sitting on top make the top clubs play in a similar way to Jaguares and the Pumas. So if they develop into the national setup they are on the same page understanding the same game approached (systems) and plays.
Use that as a template for all new players, regardless if they play in Europe or not as it is different to the NZ Policy of non – overseas players allowed they will return to Argentina understanding how the basic Play concepts of the Pumas setup.

Jaguares must play the same way as the National Team feed that down to the clubs at the regional and domestic level.
Further elite coaching programs should be in place and not just for Rugby Coaching but for all aspects of the game such as Strength and Conditioning and Nutrition.

If I was the National Director of Rugby for the UAR in addition to the above I would also invest the money on elite coaching ( Level 3) and infrastructure. The results look promising the worst result was against the Bulls losing by 13 points.

The younger players showed they can play Super Rugby and looking at results the Pumitas pipeline looks solid.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby carbonero » Tue, 16 May 2017, 21:03

The funny thing Thomas is that you just described the UAR development program.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Thomas » Wed, 17 May 2017, 09:48

carbonero wrote:The funny thing Thomas is that you just described the UAR development program.


Hahaah good to know, my personal area of interest would be the Strength and Conditioning and Nutrition aspects.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby ihateblazers » Wed, 17 May 2017, 10:45

I think that the Argentinian club stance against professionalism is a good one overall. They know what they are as entities and who they provide for, they know how it has ruined some famous clubs around the world once you go down that route. I don't know much about Argentinian domestic rugby politics but if it simply a case of being against professionalising themselves then that seems alright, but i have heard that they refuse to let professionals play for them, and the attitude seems to be that they want to stay top of the pyramid and they will try to sabotage any growth within their powers that may affect their own standing in the game. It might be more of a dogmatic and principled one rather than pragmatic.

Could there one day be a move towards growing the provincial game like SA/NZ, or maybe forming franchises with the clubs as partners like the NRC in Australia?

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Thomas » Wed, 17 May 2017, 14:28

VRU, RUPA vote for ARU EGM

http://www.rugby.com.au/news/2017/05/17 ... ll-for-egm

The Australian Super Rugby saga is getting messy, with the Victorian Rugby Union and the Players' Association voting for a special general meeting of the ARU board

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Sun, 21 May 2017, 13:45

DITTO :!:

Image

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 22 May 2017, 02:45

Thomas wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
Thomas wrote:if you include the European pool there is not enough players goes back to the domestic situation. I agree the crowds are great and it has the making of a self sufficient franchise but you need players to make it successful and win more games.


So what would be the goal for you if you were in charge of the whole Argentinian Jaguares/ national team setup? I mean even the Kiwi Super Rugby franchise have one single goal. Create the players that the All Blacks stays the number 1 nation in the world... And they just made it clear again, that nothing else counts, when they insisted that the play SA-teams every year instead of having regional conferences.


Taking a leaf of NZ Rugby I would use a pyramid approach with the Pumas sitting on top make the top clubs play in a similar way to Jaguares and the Pumas. So if they develop into the national setup they are on the same page understanding the same game approached (systems) and plays.
Use that as a template for all new players, regardless if they play in Europe or not as it is different to the NZ Policy of non – overseas players allowed they will return to Argentina understanding how the basic Play concepts of the Pumas setup.

Jaguares must play the same way as the National Team feed that down to the clubs at the regional and domestic level.
Further elite coaching programs should be in place and not just for Rugby Coaching but for all aspects of the game such as Strength and Conditioning and Nutrition.

If I was the National Director of Rugby for the UAR in addition to the above I would also invest the money on elite coaching ( Level 3) and infrastructure. The results look promising the worst result was against the Bulls losing by 13 points.

The younger players showed they can play Super Rugby and looking at results the Pumitas pipeline looks solid.


The way NZ does that with their Super Franchises leads to a lot of boring crap. That literally means you can't really be out-coached, it's all about the athletes. No personality across the spectrum, very annoying.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Sun, 28 May 2017, 18:32

Image

TOP 8 ALL BUT SET (99%)

btw, NZL 20-0 AUS (5 to play)

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Thomas » Mon, 29 May 2017, 19:17

Big anomaly in the top 4... Sorry a team with a loosing record?

I don't care how it spins it just isn't good.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Thomas » Tue, 30 May 2017, 09:52

This is how I see the current table

W L D Pts
1 Crusaders 13 0 0 59
2 Lions 12 1 0 56
3 Hurricanes 10 2 0 48
4 Highlanders 10 3 0 45
5 Chiefs 9 2 1 45
6 Sharks 9 3 1 42
7 Blues 6 6 1 32
8 Stormers 7 5 0 30
9 Brumbies 5 7 0 28
10 Jaguares 5 7 0 24
11 Waratahs 4 8 0 19
12 Kings 4 8 0 19
13 Force 4 8 0 17
14 Reds 3 9 0 16
15 Cheetahs 3 10 0 16
16 Bulls 3 9 0 15
17 Rebels 1 10 1 8
18 Sunwolves 1 11 0 7

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Sun, 04 Jun 2017, 05:31

TOP 8 ALL SET :!:

Seedings could still change -- even CRS slip @ HUR (15/07)

NZL 23-0 AUS (2 to play: HGL-RED | CHF-BRM)

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