Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

SUPER RUGBY 2017

Posts: 424
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 04 Jun 2017, 15:53

So I saw the ticket prices for Samoa and shit a brick. The Fiji match was more "affordable" but still not as affordable as a regular match at Eden Park. Bloody Robbery.

Posts: 1408
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 08 Jun 2017, 06:33

With all the talks about reduction and SA teams heading for the Pro12. How was actually the driving force behind the Super Rugby expansion and even more important who really is the force behind the reduction. Is it really the NZ Union with their wishes to have "better" opposition and who forget how necessary foreign money is especially for their game?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

User avatar
Posts: 572
Joined: Thu, 28 Apr 2016, 14:02
Location: Las Canteras, Uruguay
National Flag:
UruguayUruguay

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby NaBUru38 » Fri, 09 Jun 2017, 20:58

The New Zealand teams are just too good. Perhaps the Lions can beat them at the playoffs.

Posts: 1528
Joined: Wed, 30 Apr 2014, 16:57

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby 4N » Sat, 10 Jun 2017, 15:13

Very poor crowd in Pretoria for Boks-France. It's not just SR, South African rugby has bigger problems.

Posts: 544
Joined: Thu, 28 Jul 2016, 19:33
National Flag:
ScotlandScotland

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Sat, 10 Jun 2017, 15:39

4N wrote:Very poor crowd in Pretoria for Boks-France. It's not just SR, South African rugby has bigger problems.


True, but they are playing a more expansive game after their tactical nightmares of last year where they forced flamboyant players like Faf De Clerk and Jantjies to play a territorial kicking game, which they were rubbish at. Entertaining so far and if they actually win some games the crowds will start to come back.

Posts: 603
Joined: Tue, 27 May 2014, 20:40
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Thomas » Sat, 10 Jun 2017, 18:40

Is this a symptom of SR problems? the crowd for the Aus v Fiji was only 13,583.

Posts: 424
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 10 Jun 2017, 20:23

Thomas wrote:Is this a symptom of SR problems? the crowd for the Aus v Fiji was only 13,583.


I would say that the health issues of the game in South Africa and Australia are different in that SA is the only Union imposing racial quotas as far as I can tell. But both Unions are not growing their game at all.

SR doesn't have have attendance problems in Japan or Argentina.

Posts: 544
Joined: Thu, 28 Jul 2016, 19:33
National Flag:
ScotlandScotland

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Sat, 10 Jun 2017, 22:09

TheStroBro wrote:
Thomas wrote:Is this a symptom of SR problems? the crowd for the Aus v Fiji was only 13,583.


I would say that the health issues of the game in South Africa and Australia are different in that SA is the only Union imposing racial quotas as far as I can tell. But both Unions are not growing their game at all.

SR doesn't have have attendance problems in Japan or Argentina.


There are no racial quotas in South Africa, but it is easy to assume that from the level of mis-reporting. There are racial targets about player composition, but a quick look at a team like the Lions, or the SA Under 20s will show that the targets (6 out of 23 players must be black, or 90% must be black by 2019) are simply not being met - indicating selection based on merit. If there were quotas, then there would be 6 out of 23 non-white players or 90% black in every game).

Efforts to give non-white kids access to training facilities in the past are bearing fruit and we are seeing a lot of non-white talent finally breaking through. Many of whom starred today in an outstanding thrashing of a French side that had been improving. South Africa are back up to 5th in the world already after today and the crowds will return for their national sport.

South Africa will grow the game massively if the 90%+ of the population that isn't white buys into it.

The Australian union are however stinking out the joint!

Posts: 210
Joined: Wed, 11 Jun 2014, 07:45
National Flag:
ArgentinaArgentina

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby carbonero » Sat, 10 Jun 2017, 22:09

TheStroBro wrote: SR doesn't have have attendance problems in Japan or Argentina.

Really? Jaguares averages less than 10.000 fans. Sunwolves in Tokyo have been pretty solid.

Posts: 424
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 10 Jun 2017, 23:42

Bruce_ma_goose wrote:
There are no racial quotas in South Africa, but it is easy to assume that from the level of mis-reporting. There are racial targets about player composition, but a quick look at a team like the Lions, or the SA Under 20s will show that the targets (6 out of 23 players must be black, or 90% must be black by 2019) are simply not being met - indicating selection based on merit. If there were quotas, then there would be 6 out of 23 non-white players or 90% black in every game).

Efforts to give non-white kids access to training facilities in the past are bearing fruit and we are seeing a lot of non-white talent finally breaking through. Many of whom starred today in an outstanding thrashing of a French side that had been improving. South Africa are back up to 5th in the world already after today and the crowds will return for their national sport.

South Africa will grow the game massively if the 90%+ of the population that isn't white buys into it.

The Australian union are however stinking out the joint!


There definitely are racial quotas for the Springboks, and if you don't think that is impacting SR then idk. Getting the population to buy into the game is not the responsibility of the populace, it is the responsibility of the Rugby community to grow itself by bringing their friends in. You have to be evangelical about it.

But it's also crazy, because many of the public-boarding schools have multiples amazing rugby pitches.

carbonero wrote:Really? Jaguares averages less than 10.000 fans. Sunwolves in Tokyo have been pretty solid.


Both matches I've seen of the Jaguares at home showed a pretty full stadium. But other than the Stormers home match I saw, every SA franchise couldn't have had more than 3k.

User avatar
Posts: 1229
Joined: Thu, 26 Jun 2014, 05:56
Location: Zemo Vera, Tbilissi, GEORGIA

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Mon, 12 Jun 2017, 06:36

at TEST-RUGBY BREAK

*Global Season* should cure this come 2020

Image

Posts: 544
Joined: Thu, 28 Jul 2016, 19:33
National Flag:
ScotlandScotland

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Mon, 12 Jun 2017, 15:33

The SARU and South African government have been completely unequivocal on the matter. There are no quotas. In the last two years there have been many occasions across all levels where the target has not been met. It is a fiction peddled as clickbait and used as a scapegoat for poor performance.

Posts: 424
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby TheStroBro » Mon, 12 Jun 2017, 19:05

At no point have I been talking about racial quotas for the Franchises. I've been pretty clear about them for the Springboks Player pool and Coaching staff. If you don't think this effects Super, you're out of your skull friend!

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/ ... d-a-crisis

Posts: 544
Joined: Thu, 28 Jul 2016, 19:33
National Flag:
ScotlandScotland

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Thu, 15 Jun 2017, 16:10

You did read that I said "all levels"? This includes the national side. I agree that misinformation around transformation targets has caused a decline in crowds at Super Rugby.

Below is something I wrote elsewhere last year fully referencing the facts around transformation including direct quotes from the relevant parties, so you don't have to rely on unreferenced misinformation in elements of the press (apologies for formatting issues). So maybe I'm not so much out of my skull as simply better informed.


"Quotas in South African Rugby – fact or fiction?

There is massive speculation on the internet about it. Is it 7 players out of the 23 must be non-white? Is it 50% of the team by 2019 must be non-white? How many of the non-white must be black etc? Is it horrible and racist? Is it wonderful and spreading social cohesion? In doing further research on this topic something striking came to mind. Quotas may not actually exist in South African rugby. In fact, at international level at least they don’t.

There is a world of difference between a target and a quota. Quotas must be met whereas targets might not be met (or might be exceeded). You might have a target to reduce the number of casualties in car crashes, or reduce waiting times for operations at hospitals or to have a rugby side that is not so unrepresentative of the ethnic makeup of the country.


When is a quota not a quota? When it's a target

“Allister has been asked to have 50% black players in his squad by 2019, a rule that already applies to national junior teams. It’s a target and you won’t get rapped over the fingers if you don’t meet it; there are going to be exceptions, but the government and SARU want to see a genuine willingness to give non-white players the opportunity to play.”

http://www.rugbyworld.com/countries/sou ... tzee-58418


ANC says quotas are "counter-productive"

What we have in South Africa is targets, an aspiration to move towards greater representation of non-white players in South Africa and to have rugby engage more widely across different communities. But don’t take my word for it. Take the word of the South African Sports Minister, just three months ago in June 2016.

“We must acknowledge that quotas don’t help, they’re counter-productive,’ he added. ‘If you select someone as a quota player, it’s an insult. How can you participate in a national team if you’re not there on merit? But we’ve got to go down to get this talent that we have in abundance, and bring it to the fore. Merit is not dissociated with transformation. I don’t want quotas, I don’t want the targets to be met in that way just to make the minister happy. It’s about an integrated society and going through a process to get the national teams to where they should be.”

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/quotas- ... -minister/


Well, he is ANC, he would say that wouldn’t he? What about the CEO of SARU in February 2015.


SARU say, it is "not a quota system"

“SARU CEO Jurie Roux stressed at a news conference in Cape Town that the "Strategic Transformation Plan" was not a quota system, but said he was confident the targets would be reached.

"It's not just about numbers on the field", he said, pointing to plans for expanding black participation at all levels of the game. "We know that we are only judged on representation in the Springbok team," a reference to government pressure for racial transformation.

"We understand that, and we also understand that it is also unfair to put that pressure on the Springbok coach without offering him any assistance - his teams can only reflect what is going on at the elite end of the domestic game."”

http://en.espn.co.uk/southafrica/rugby/ ... 57457.html


Springbok sides clearly not adhering to any kind of quota

Still not convinced you? How about looking at the last SA rugby test side vs NZ last week.

South Africa: 15 Johan Goosen, 14 Bryan Habana, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Juan de Jongh, 11 Francois Hougaard, 10 Elton Jantjies, 9 Faf de Klerk, 8 Warren Whiteley, 7 Oupa Mohoje, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Pieter-Steph du Toit, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Vincent Koch, 2 Adriaan Strauss (captain), 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16 Malcolm Marx, 17 Steven Kitshoff, 18 Lourens Adriaanse, 19 Franco Mostert, 20 Willem Alberts, 21 Jaco Kriel, 22 Morne Steyn, 23 Damian de Allende

There certainly isn’t 50% non-white there. I count six? Regardless, as soon as the number falls below 7 out of the 23, then we know that quotas are not in place with the South African international side. It couldn't be plainer. There are no sanctions against AC just as there were no sanctions against the Springboks at the RWC when the side was overwhelmingly white. It is targets. It is players selected on ability combined with an effort to expand the take-up of the game within South Africa. It is done with honourable intentions.


Conclusion

So we can all relax, acknowledge that rugby in South Africa faces all manner of issues in terms of the quality of their players and coaching (both white and non-white), tune into the Rugby Championship and resume loving or hating the Springboks on purely sporting grounds. Hallelujah!


++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Update: 27/09/2016

Quotas in Super Rugby?

I focus on the international side because it is the one that is easiest to observe. So I took my search elsewhere to see if I could find solid evidence of specific quotas (rather than targets). I have read comments that the Lions have very limited numbers of "non-white" players too, indicating perhaps that quotas are also not in place in Super Rugby and that player selection there is based on merit. Summed up neatly by this headline:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/opinion...e-messy-period

"That's simply because, under the push for transformation, they do not have enough players of colour; just three in the starting side and one on the bench (13 per cent of the 23 man squad) that rolled the Highlanders last week.""

Posts: 470
Joined: Sun, 07 Dec 2014, 20:31
National Flag:
WalesWales

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Figaro » Fri, 16 Jun 2017, 09:05

I don't know much about SA rugby, but if quotas or targets are the issue, which specific non-white players do people think aren't good enough, and which specific white players should be being picked instead of them? I never hear any names mentioned, yet if this is a factor in the boks' malaise then it should be possible to mention specific players.

Last time I watched the springboks play (getting well beaten by Wales last autumn) most of the players were white.

Posts: 851
Joined: Thu, 15 Dec 2016, 11:18
National Flag:
KenyaKenya

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Neptune » Sat, 17 Jun 2017, 14:30

Figaro wrote:I don't know much about SA rugby, but if quotas or targets are the issue, which specific non-white players do people think aren't good enough, and which specific white players should be being picked instead of them? I never hear any names mentioned, yet if this is a factor in the boks' malaise then it should be possible to mention specific players.

Last time I watched the springboks play (getting well beaten by Wales last autumn) most of the players were white.


The quotas debate is not healthy for modern - day South African sport. If im not wrong, it is one of the reasons KP left the Proteas and joined England. I think everybody should just make the squad on merit, instead of being given a green and gold jersey due to the colour of their skin.

Posts: 2776
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby victorsra » Sat, 17 Jun 2017, 15:52

If there is quotas in the Currie Cup, to allow more black players to enter the professional game (as I assume it is more difficult to break the first barrier), and if any racist acts inside professional rugby are carefuly investigated and severely punished, you don't need quotas for the Boks, as it is a matter of time to have more equality. The work is to make a solid bridge, not an artificial/controversial reality. Moreover, Currie Cup is an all-South African competition (everybody is affected the same), different from Super Rugby. This means less negative and more positive impact.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 369
Joined: Tue, 14 Apr 2015, 19:19
National Flag:
GeorgiaGeorgia

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby tryman » Wed, 28 Jun 2017, 08:00

According to Paul Tait (is he Argentinean by the way?) Raul Perez has stood down.

'Raul Perez is reportedly to be stood down as Jaguares Head Coach, replaced by Mario Ledesma.'

Ledesma must have been bought out of his Australia contract. Will provide the scrum with badly needed coaching as they've got poor since the world cup.

Posts: 210
Joined: Wed, 11 Jun 2014, 07:45
National Flag:
ArgentinaArgentina

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby carbonero » Wed, 28 Jun 2017, 21:45

Please don’t listen to Paul Tait. He translates any shit lying around his twitter feed. The original report is from Periodismo Rugby. It says that the UAR will “try” to sign Ledesma: http://www.periodismo-rugby.com.ar/2017/06/27/ultimo/

Australia already denied the report: http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2017/0 ... -jaguares/

tryman wrote:According to Paul Tait (is he Argentinean by the way?) Raul Perez has stood down.

No. He is a kiwi living in Brazil

tryman wrote:Will provide the scrum with badly needed coaching as they've got poor since the world cup

I’m skeptical. He is more of the same in that regard. Have you seen Australia’s scrum since the World Cup?

User avatar
Posts: 467
Joined: Fri, 19 Feb 2016, 22:49
Location: Córdoba
National Flag:
ArgentinaArgentina

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby argie » Wed, 28 Jun 2017, 22:52

"Ledesma not leaving Australia to coach Jaguares".
http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2017/0 ... -jaguares/

User avatar
Posts: 572
Joined: Thu, 28 Apr 2016, 14:02
Location: Las Canteras, Uruguay
National Flag:
UruguayUruguay

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby NaBUru38 » Fri, 30 Jun 2017, 16:00

Raúl Pérez is believed to be fired soon. No official word about replacements.

Posts: 369
Joined: Tue, 14 Apr 2015, 19:19
National Flag:
GeorgiaGeorgia

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby tryman » Sat, 01 Jul 2017, 07:22

Losing to the much improved Kings at home isn't going to do Perez any favours. They can't seem to win these close games.

User avatar
Posts: 1229
Joined: Thu, 26 Jun 2014, 05:56
Location: Zemo Vera, Tbilissi, GEORGIA

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Sat, 01 Jul 2017, 17:47

AFTER (split) Round 15 -- PART 2

Image

Posts: 2776
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby victorsra » Sun, 02 Jul 2017, 14:19

Also really embarasing for the Japanese the 94-07 against the Lions...
Last edited by victorsra on Sun, 02 Jul 2017, 15:32, edited 1 time in total.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 1528
Joined: Wed, 30 Apr 2014, 16:57

Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby 4N » Sun, 02 Jul 2017, 14:29

victorsra wrote:Also really embarasing for the Japs the 94-07 against the Lions...


Jap is something of a slur in English, just FYI.

PreviousNext

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Bogdan_DC, toulousain and 13 guests