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SUPER RUGBY 2017

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 09:05

Word coming through from the SANZAAR meeting. Looking likely Super Rugby will be reduced to 15 teams again. SA to cut two teams, Australia to cut one. The Brumbies look likely to be on the chopping block, may end up merging with the Rebels.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Raven » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 09:29

thatrugbyguy wrote:Word coming through from the SANZAAR meeting. Looking likely Super Rugby will be reduced to 15 teams again. SA to cut two teams, Australia to cut one. The Brumbies look likely to be on the chopping block, may end up merging with the Rebels.


Wow... big news... any source?

In a personal note, I have been talking with an Aussie friend who claims SR hasn´t been the same since the expansion, rivalry teams don´t play that much, the weird table of positions, the +50 points wins in some games... it is understandable. I guess this might a general feeling in Australia.

I am not a fan of merged teams in top flight though.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Thomas » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 10:44

News reports are coming out of London, Nothing official but there was a meeting yesterday will all Unions involved. The gist is that 2 SA and 1 Aussie will be cut as well. My money is on the Rebels they have never made any headway in Melbourne unlike the AFL in Sydney and in Brisbane. Apparently 18 is just too big and unyielding. Maybe a Pacific side will make way and make it 16 a side???

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 10:56

Thomas wrote:News reports are coming out of London, Nothing official but there was a meeting yesterday will all Unions involved. The gist is that 2 SA and 1 Aussie will be cut as well. My money is on the Rebels they have never made any headway in Melbourne unlike the AFL in Sydney and in Brisbane. Apparently 18 is just too big and unyielding. Maybe a Pacific side will make way and make it 16 a side???


I don't think they can or will cut the Rebels. That's like waving a white flag, when you don't have a team anymore in the second biggest city of the country.
Brumbies or Western Force.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Thomas » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 11:02

Brumbies will never happen.. Force is doable but they came before the rebels.

Rebels to go and Brumbies to move to Melbourne

this is all about money investment and sustainability, its about a commercial television criteria that holds little regard for virtue or notions of meritocracy.
Both Melbourne and Perth are commercially more alluring and while both are unlikely to realise any real growth in our life times, the bankers are punters at heart and therein lies the

The problem with plastic entities and brands are a disposable object for the commercial paymasters; The Brumbies will be reinvented in Melbourne - at best.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Thomas » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 11:05

PS: The conference system is a farce. Last year the top four positions should have been taken up by NZ teams based on results, in addition some teams may not play each based on the current structure how does that make it a championship? END OF RANT

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 11:11

Thomas wrote:Brumbies will never happen.. Force is doable but they came before the rebels.

Rebels to go and Brumbies to move to Melbourne

this is all about money investment and sustainability, its about a commercial television criteria that holds little regard for virtue or notions of meritocracy.
Both Melbourne and Perth are commercially more alluring and while both are unlikely to realise any real growth in our life times, the bankers are punters at heart and therein lies the

The problem with plastic entities and brands are a disposable object for the commercial paymasters; The Brumbies will be reinvented in Melbourne - at best.


There is already suggestion of a merger and rumblings that the one to go will be the Brumbies. Smallest market and have struggled financially for the last 14 years.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby JRugbyPodcast » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 11:13

Team News for Friday night's match between the Bulls v Sunwolves: http://www.jrugbypodcast.com/sunwolves/ ... -sunwolves
Interesting to see MOTM Liaki Moli on the bench!

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 12:02

Thomas wrote:Brumbies will never happen.. Force is doable but they came before the rebels.

Rebels to go and Brumbies to move to Melbourne

this is all about money investment and sustainability, its about a commercial television criteria that holds little regard for virtue or notions of meritocracy.
Both Melbourne and Perth are commercially more alluring and while both are unlikely to realise any real growth in our life times, the bankers are punters at heart and therein lies the

The problem with plastic entities and brands are a disposable object for the commercial paymasters; The Brumbies will be reinvented in Melbourne - at best.


Force isn't going anywhere for TV and timezone reasons. Brumbies name may remain but them merging with the Rebels is a pretty distinct possibility right now. One thing is for certain, the ARU can't afford to lose the Melbourne audience. Canberra is a sacrifice they'd be willing to take. Going to be sad if this happens, Brumbies are well liked by many in the community.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 12:08

On a side note, it's not going to surprise me if teams start reverting to their original state or provincial names. Too many people have no idea where half the Super Rugby teams are from, so some rebranding may be needed across the board for the competition.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 12:11

Thomas wrote:PS: The conference system is a farce. Last year the top four positions should have been taken up by NZ teams based on results, in addition some teams may not play each based on the current structure how does that make it a championship? END OF RANT


How do you decide which teams are the top 4 if you have a conference system? Actually you can't 100% (yes, we both know that the Kiwi teams actually are the best). That is the whole point of having playoffs after a conference system. They should have had the groups more divided. And the biggest mistake was that you don't play everyone in your own conference twice. And the did it just to make sure that everybody has the same number of games. Which actually wasn't necessary. One game more or one game less would still work.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 12:15

thatrugbyguy wrote:On a side note, it's not going to surprise me if teams start reverting to their original state or provincial names. Too many people have no idea where half the Super Rugby teams are from, so some rebranding may be needed across the board for the competition.


That sounds like a good idea. But: would it really work in Melbourne, where over 70% of all Victorians are already living in the Melbourne area? Same for Aukland and even Sydney. Not sure about that.

But I definitely do agree that Super Rugby made a mistake of calling the teams too often just by there nicknames. I really struggled when I got interested in rugby to find out which team comes from where.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 12:33

I personally think contraction is stupid, expansion is never easy and the punters expected too much from new teams the first few years. What they should have done is up the number of imports available to play on each team to make weaker teams stronger during the first few years. They also should have held an expansion draft whereby the expansion teams get to draft a couple of players from every other team to even out their sides.

Also should have reworked the conference system to three conferences, 1 African, 1 Australian, 1 NZ/Arg.

African:

Lions
Cheetahs
Stormers
Bulls
Sharks
Kings

Australian:

Brumbies
Waratahs
Reds
Force
Rebels
Sunwolves

NZ:

Crusaders
Hurricanes
Highlanders
Blues
Chiefs
Jaguares

Teams play a home and away against their own conference which guarantees everyone gets a local derby match. They then would play 3 random games against each other conference, 3 home and 3 away. Total of sixteen matches in the regular season, 8 home, 8 away. Top two from each conference make the playoffs with two wildcard teams with the best records also making the playoffs. Playoff seeding determined by overall league record.

The inter-conference match ups could be treated as a tour, e.g. SA Conference plays three home games against NZ conference, 3 away against Australia, etc... NZ plays away to SA home to Australia, Australia plays home to SA away NZ. It's a very simple system which would reduce travel to specific bricks during the schedule and would give teams a decent amount of time at home.

You've also got a good system to base further expansion off of, want a team in Hong Kong? They go to the Australia Conference, want a second Argentinian side? They play in NZ, etc.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 13:26

Canadian Rugger is spot on. This would be the logical system to go.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby 4N » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 14:09

thatrugbyguy wrote:
Thomas wrote:Brumbies will never happen.. Force is doable but they came before the rebels.

Rebels to go and Brumbies to move to Melbourne

this is all about money investment and sustainability, its about a commercial television criteria that holds little regard for virtue or notions of meritocracy.
Both Melbourne and Perth are commercially more alluring and while both are unlikely to realise any real growth in our life times, the bankers are punters at heart and therein lies the

The problem with plastic entities and brands are a disposable object for the commercial paymasters; The Brumbies will be reinvented in Melbourne - at best.


Force isn't going anywhere for TV and timezone reasons. Brumbies name may remain but them merging with the Rebels is a pretty distinct possibility right now. One thing is for certain, the ARU can't afford to lose the Melbourne audience. Canberra is a sacrifice they'd be willing to take. Going to be sad if this happens, Brumbies are well liked by many in the community.


Brumbies absorbing the Rebels and Melbourne market seems logical. I think before the Rebels came into being the ARU wanted to do something like that but there was resistance. They could still play occasional matches in Canberra.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby NaBUru38 » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 17:53

I doubt that South Africa will accept losing two teams. The least they need is to reduce the number of professional contracts.

Jaguares playing at the New Zealand conference would be madness. We would'nt watch half of the matches, as they are played well beyond midnight. They should play with South Africans.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 18:14

RugbyLiebe wrote:Canadian Rugger is spot on. This would be the logical system to go.

THIS was the system TOO MANY people had supported back in 2014,
and even before, when the STUPID and UNFAIR, 5+5+4+4 deal was announced

Unfortunatley, SANZAAR will have needed TWO failed seasons to recognize
that the LOGIC is paramount for integrity of ANY competition

@

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 18:26

thatrugbyguy wrote:On a side note, it's not going to surprise me if teams start reverting to their original state or provincial names. Too many people have no idea where half the Super Rugby teams are from, so some rebranding may be needed across the board for the competition.


I never understood why the Australian teams in particular got rid of their names, its not like the Waratahs are ever going to get any fans from outside New South Wales or "the Reds" outside Queensland. They were already state wide names! I understand there was a bit of friction in NZ from places that weren't in the name and I get that a bit.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby carbonero » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 20:23

Canadian_Rugger wrote:I personally think contraction is stupid, expansion is never easy and the punters expected too much from new teams the first few years. What they should have done is up the number of imports available to play on each team to make weaker teams stronger during the first few years. They also should have held an expansion draft whereby the expansion teams get to draft a couple of players from every other team to even out their sides.

Also should have reworked the conference system to three conferences, 1 African, 1 Australian, 1 NZ/Arg.

African:

Lions
Cheetahs
Stormers
Bulls
Sharks
Kings

Australian:

Brumbies
Waratahs
Reds
Force
Rebels
Sunwolves

NZ:

Crusaders
Hurricanes
Highlanders
Blues
Chiefs
Jaguares

Teams play a home and away against their own conference which guarantees everyone gets a local derby match. They then would play 3 random games against each other conference, 3 home and 3 away. Total of sixteen matches in the regular season, 8 home, 8 away. Top two from each conference make the playoffs with two wildcard teams with the best records also making the playoffs. Playoff seeding determined by overall league record.

The inter-conference match ups could be treated as a tour, e.g. SA Conference plays three home games against NZ conference, 3 away against Australia, etc... NZ plays away to SA home to Australia, Australia plays home to SA away NZ. It's a very simple system which would reduce travel to specific bricks during the schedule and would give teams a decent amount of time at home.

You've also got a good system to base further expansion off of, want a team in Hong Kong? They go to the Australia Conference, want a second Argentinian side? They play in NZ, etc.

If that format materializes, Jaguares will have to pull out eventually. Yes, the trip from Buenos Aires to Auckland is just 13 hours long. However, the bigger issue is the 16 hour time difference. You are talking about at least three trips to Australasia in just four months, plus one more during the Rugby Championship. That isn’t sustainable on a player welfare standpoint and has also implications on Argentina’s ability of retaining their best players.

And expansion drafts can only happen in single entity structures like the NBA, NFL, MLS, etc., where contracts are centrally owned by the league. Players can be traded without having any say in the matter. If someone signs with Highlanders/NZRU, you can’t force him to move to Port Elizabeth during the remainder of his contract.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 21:10

carbonero wrote: If someone signs with Highlanders/NZRU, you can’t force him to move to Port Elizabeth during the remainder of his contract.


Lets think this through: why not? Its not that Super Rugby goes on forever. It goes just half the year, which is not that long for a pro-sport. They are professionals. That's their job.

Lets take ice-hockey. How many of all the pro-players worldwide are Canadians? I guess the number is quite close to the Kiwis in rugby. Does it really matter if you play abroad in another league or in the same?

This could actually be the patch to teams in more countries and global growth.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby carbonero » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 22:46

RugbyLiebe wrote: Lets think this through: why not? Its not that Super Rugby goes on forever. It goes just half the year, which is not that long for a pro-sport. They are professionals. That's their job.

If the player is out of contract, he can go wherever he wants. Expansion drafts are exclusively for players under contract. And if you ship one of your players to Tokyo/Buenos Aires/Port Elizabeth without his approval, you are breaching the conditions of his contract.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby victorsra » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 22:56

What I understand is that one of the main reasons to reduce the teams is to go back to the round robin format of Super 12/14 era, NO conferences, when Super Rugby had 20-25k average attendances (and not the shame of today), but preserving at least 14 matches (7 home matches) to each team. They are betting that this will have a positive effect for the fans of the "original" 3 countries.

Probably the Jaguares and the Sunwolves will have schedules of 3-4 matches away in a row in the same country to counter-effect distances. Probably one trip to South Africa (and Argentina, in Sunwolves case) and one trip to the Pacific. But the round robin will go on.
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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 23:34

Jaguares would have to do their games in blocks. 3-4 games at home, then 3-4 games away, followed by a bye, then repeat the cycle. Unless they increase each teams number of bye weekends to 3.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 15 Mar 2017, 23:44

Canadian_Rugger wrote:I personally think contraction is stupid, expansion is never easy and the punters expected too much from new teams the first few years. What they should have done is up the number of imports available to play on each team to make weaker teams stronger during the first few years. They also should have held an expansion draft whereby the expansion teams get to draft a couple of players from every other team to even out their sides.

Also should have reworked the conference system to three conferences, 1 African, 1 Australian, 1 NZ/Arg.

African:

Lions
Cheetahs
Stormers
Bulls
Sharks
Kings

Australian:

Brumbies
Waratahs
Reds
Force
Rebels
Sunwolves

NZ:

Crusaders
Hurricanes
Highlanders
Blues
Chiefs
Jaguares

Teams play a home and away against their own conference which guarantees everyone gets a local derby match. They then would play 3 random games against each other conference, 3 home and 3 away. Total of sixteen matches in the regular season, 8 home, 8 away. Top two from each conference make the playoffs with two wildcard teams with the best records also making the playoffs. Playoff seeding determined by overall league record.

The inter-conference match ups could be treated as a tour, e.g. SA Conference plays three home games against NZ conference, 3 away against Australia, etc... NZ plays away to SA home to Australia, Australia plays home to SA away NZ. It's a very simple system which would reduce travel to specific bricks during the schedule and would give teams a decent amount of time at home.

You've also got a good system to base further expansion off of, want a team in Hong Kong? They go to the Australia Conference, want a second Argentinian side? They play in NZ, etc.


Mate, the biggest problem with that model is you've approached it thinking logically. Something SANZAAR could never be accused of. Anyone with a lick of commonsense would agree with that model and I know many who have suggested jist that but SANZAAR is an absolute clusterfuck in the best of circumstances.

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Re: SUPER RUGBY 2017

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 16 Mar 2017, 00:22

I just don't understand how that model wasn't considered in the first place. 10 inter group games, 3 games each from the other 2 conferences. Simple.

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