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REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

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REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 06 Mar 2017, 21:56

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How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 06 Mar 2017, 21:59

Bad news for Germany. Damien Tussac and Chris Hilsenbeck won't apparently be released again by their French clubs for the game.

Shame on Castres (Top14) and Colomiers (ProD2)
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 06 Mar 2017, 22:22

Don't worry, we've had the same problem with Charly Malié and Pau during all the tournament :cry:

Other missing players for Spain in this game should be Jonathan García (got injured against Romania and may not be still OK), Sébastien Ascarat (huge for us, but he didn't play for his club this weekend either) and Kalo Kalo Gavidi (maybe got concussed against Georgia). Plus Asier Usárraga and Ignacio Contardi, carrying long time injuries. On the other hand, Marco Pinto and Juan Anaya should be back from injuries for this game.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby Coloradoan » Mon, 06 Mar 2017, 22:57

RugbyLiebe wrote:Bad news for Germany. Damien Tussac and Chris Hilsenbeck won't apparently be released again by their French clubs for the game.

Shame on Castres (Top14) and Colomiers (ProD2)


Brutal. Germany couldn't "trade" availability now for availability in, say, November? This match is as big as any in this RWC cycle for Germany IMO. Pretty big for Spain too.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby fullbackace » Tue, 07 Mar 2017, 03:34

Agreed home game vs Spain is probably the single most important game for Germany until the 2023 qualifiers.
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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby Neptune » Tue, 07 Mar 2017, 08:34

fullbackace wrote:Agreed home game vs Spain is probably the single most important game for Germany until the 2023 qualifiers.


But why can't the French clubs release the players? The most probable teams to qualify are either Germany or Spain, since Georgia has a direct ticket. Anyway,
life isn't fair. All the best to all the teams competing.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby germanbullsfan » Tue, 07 Mar 2017, 08:57

I would offer them a compensation, imagine the Qualification would fail because of the absence of those crucial important players.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 07 Mar 2017, 09:01

Neptune wrote:
fullbackace wrote:Agreed home game vs Spain is probably the single most important game for Germany until the 2023 qualifiers.


But why can't the French clubs release the players? The most probable teams to qualify are either Germany or Spain, since Georgia has a direct ticket. Anyway,
life isn't fair. All the best to all the teams competing.


The French clubs are in the final stages of their season. Castres is ranked 3rd nine points ahead position 8. Off course they don't want to play without their best prop(s) (they didn't release Romania's Lazar last week as well and then beat Clermont). Funwise Tussac will probably play against Malie as Castres faces Pau.

The situation with Hilsenbeck is nearly the same. Colomiers is ranked 5th in the ProD2 (five points behind the 1st and just two point ahead the 6th who misses the playoffs). Hilsenbeck is apparently their replacement 10 and gets a lot of game time. Also his contract seems to run out after this season.

I can understand the clubs. World Rugby needs to step in to create a time-frame where national teams have their best players availabe and the only chance to make sure this is the case is to forbid any top-level club rugby on that dates.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby frakturfreak » Tue, 07 Mar 2017, 19:50

My solution for Word Rugby to this topic: Tell the clubs to go fuck themselves and requiring them to release a national team player at any time of the year, no windows needed. National team duty is more important than anything else.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 07 Mar 2017, 19:57

World Rugby already has a clause like this. But it is impossible to apply... The player will always try to earn his life and T2/T3 unions can't offer that.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby Buffalo » Tue, 07 Mar 2017, 20:47

frakturfreak wrote:My solution for Word Rugby to this topic: Tell the clubs to go fuck themselves and requiring them to release a national team player at any time of the year, no windows needed. National team duty is more important than anything else.


Getting a paycheck and being able to support your family is far more important than International rugby. At least to the players who's lives are affected by these decisions. If the Unions, World Rugby and players themselves press the issue then there's always someone else in the pipeline who will be willing to forgo international duty in favor of a paycheck. So if a player and union press the issue said player may get released for International duty but the next year they could wind up back in, let's say Germany, playing club rugby and the pro club will have a shiny new Fijian or Kiwi in their ranks.

Telling the clubs to "go fuck themselves" is also an unfortunate viewpoint. Professional rugby is a business and it should be viewed as one. The players are employed by these clubs and the clubs are the main reason rugby is at the current level of play it as. They allow players to be able to train on a full-time basis and play at a higher standard than local competition allows all while receiving a paycheck for their work. I get that people love International rugby but the utter disdain for professional sides by fans is just insane to me. Like I get the frustration, DTH and Cuddles have backed out of International duty on occasions for Canada to stick around with their clubs. It's just an unfortunate part of business and will remain that way while nations are dependent on clubs.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby ihateblazers » Wed, 08 Mar 2017, 00:43

Agree that world rugby needs to mandate that no pro club games can be played during interational periods. For the November window this shouldn't cause too much issues, but for the 6 nations due to the length of the comp it'd be better to move it after the club season and linking into the June/July window. Even football has been able to pass something like this.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby Neptune » Wed, 08 Mar 2017, 08:12

I heard of a case where some Oceania players (Samoa, Fiji Tonga) were told to sign contracts which had a disclaimer at the bottom, that once they sign with the club, they can no longer play for their national teams. I wonder how true this statement was, and if it really occurred.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 08 Mar 2017, 10:37

Neptune wrote:I heard of a case where some Oceania players (Samoa, Fiji Tonga) were told to sign contracts which had a disclaimer at the bottom, that once they sign with the club, they can no longer play for their national teams. I wonder how true this statement was, and if it really occurred.


I doubt that they can do something like this with EU citizens. They should probably know their rights better and even more important they don't have fear about being deported if they don't have a job. But yeah, it is absolutely possible that something like this exists.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby cheesus » Wed, 08 Mar 2017, 11:47

The last ten minutes of the draw last year:
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x3yu7t3_replay-end-enc1a-germany-spain-2016_sport

Let's see who has the upper hand this year at the same location.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby Neptune » Wed, 08 Mar 2017, 13:56

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Neptune wrote:I heard of a case where some Oceania players (Samoa, Fiji Tonga) were told to sign contracts which had a disclaimer at the bottom, that once they sign with the club, they can no longer play for their national teams. I wonder how true this statement was, and if it really occurred.


I doubt that they can do something like this with EU citizens. They should probably know their rights better and even more important they don't have fear about being deported if they don't have a job. But yeah, it is absolutely possible that something like this exists.


There was an article i read, where a New Zealand native directly confessed that the Southern Pacific Islanders (Samoa, Fiji, Tonga) are the main reason NZ rugby is above the rest. The problem is that they take advantage of them, since most leave their home countries very young, and do not know how to read or write,hence sign the contracts very quickly without looking at the repurcussions later.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 08 Mar 2017, 14:40

Neptune wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
Neptune wrote:I heard of a case where some Oceania players (Samoa, Fiji Tonga) were told to sign contracts which had a disclaimer at the bottom, that once they sign with the club, they can no longer play for their national teams. I wonder how true this statement was, and if it really occurred.


I doubt that they can do something like this with EU citizens. They should probably know their rights better and even more important they don't have fear about being deported if they don't have a job. But yeah, it is absolutely possible that something like this exists.


There was an article i read, where a New Zealand native directly confessed that the Southern Pacific Islanders (Samoa, Fiji, Tonga) are the main reason NZ rugby is above the rest. The problem is that they take advantage of them, since most leave their home countries very young, and do not know how to read or write,hence sign the contracts very quickly without looking at the repurcussions later.


1st this has not a lot to do with this cases but maybe there are some young PI signing somewhere else - but they are the minority.
2nd the article you read is bullshit as nearly all of the All Blacks are born in NZ and the others are ALL raised and "rugby-educated" there. The only reason Samoa and Tonga (apart from protectionism by t1 countries) do still qualify for World Cups are NZ born or rugby-educated players and the NZ system they go through.

NZ is above the rest:
1. it is the only first world country where Rugby is the clear number 1 sport.
2. NZ managed to make the HAKA a brand and get money out of it
3. They invest this money extremely wise

yes, it does help that a large part of the population seems to have good genes for Rugby, but the other 3 reasons come before that.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby Neptune » Wed, 08 Mar 2017, 14:47

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Neptune wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
Neptune wrote:I heard of a case where some Oceania players (Samoa, Fiji Tonga) were told to sign contracts which had a disclaimer at the bottom, that once they sign with the club, they can no longer play for their national teams. I wonder how true this statement was, and if it really occurred.


I doubt that they can do something like this with EU citizens. They should probably know their rights better and even more important they don't have fear about being deported if they don't have a job. But yeah, it is absolutely possible that something like this exists.


There was an article i read, where a New Zealand native directly confessed that the Southern Pacific Islanders (Samoa, Fiji, Tonga) are the main reason NZ rugby is above the rest. The problem is that they take advantage of them, since most leave their home countries very young, and do not know how to read or write,hence sign the contracts very quickly without looking at the repurcussions later.


1st this has not a lot to do with this cases but maybe there are some young PI signing somewhere else - but they are the minority.
2nd the article you read is bullshit as nearly all of the All Blacks are born in NZ and the others are ALL raised and "rugby-educated" there. The only reason Samoa and Tonga (apart from protectionism by t1 countries) do still qualify for World Cups are NZ born or rugby-educated players and the NZ system they go through.

NZ is above the rest:
1. it is the only first world country where Rugby is the clear number 1 sport.
2. NZ managed to make the HAKA a brand and get money out of it
3. They invest this money extremely wise

yes, it does help that a large part of the population seems to have good genes for Rugby, but the other 3 reasons come before that.


RugbyLiebe, im talking about the pacific islanders raising the standards of the domestic leagues, and hence it reflects on the All blacks overall performance.
But, the article i read does speak volumes about NZ rugby.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 08 Mar 2017, 15:07

Neptune wrote:
RugbyLiebe, im talking about the pacific islanders raising the standards of the domestic leagues, and hence it reflects on the All blacks overall performance.
But, the article i read does speak volumes about NZ rugby.


Which domestic leagues? If you mean NZ - they are not. Don't mix up heritage with reality.
If you mean European leagues, Kiwis do, PI are good players, but don't necessarily raise the standard, they are mainly there because they are good players and cheap for the level they play. The Kiwis do, because they come from an extremely organized, analytic and professional training environment and they can bring their knowledge on.

PI are mostly natural talents who often (there are off course exceptions to both Kiwis and PI) can't teach this natural way of playing rugby to others. And off course a lot of Kiwis have PI heritage. So this is really just a question in which system somebody grew up. And to make it into the AB is just possible if you went to the best rugby system in the world - the Kiwi system. Exceptions are extremely rare.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Thu, 09 Mar 2017, 07:43

RugbyLiebe wrote:Bad news for Germany. Damien Tussac and Chris Hilsenbeck won't apparently be released again by their French clubs for the game.

Shame on Castres (Top14) and Colomiers (ProD2)


Did Germany get these players for any of their other games in the tournament? If so, is there any indication of Germany get any choice in which one or two games they get access to such players? Spain at home would have been my first priority for them.

It underlines that for Tier 2 unions, getting at least one professional club at any level should be almost their number one priority.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 09 Mar 2017, 07:55

Bruce_ma_goose wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:Bad news for Germany. Damien Tussac and Chris Hilsenbeck won't apparently be released again by their French clubs for the game.

Shame on Castres (Top14) and Colomiers (ProD2)


Did Germany get these players for any of their other games in the tournament? If so, is there any indication of Germany get any choice in which one or two games they get access to such players? Spain at home would have been my first priority for them.

It underlines that for Tier 2 unions, getting at least one professional club at any level should be almost their number one priority.


Both were available against Romania. While German management has talked about the possibility of taking Romania's scalp I don't think they really targeted it. The weekend of the Romania game there were no regular matches scheduled in the French leagues. That's also the reason why Romania had their French based players on board (But there were two rescheduled matches with Racing-Bayonne and Pau-Lyon). Maybe it was a mistake to schedule no REC matches on february 25th as this would have been another game-less weekend in France.

What I don't understand about French club rugby: why do they have two free weekends in January (14th and 21st) and then play on during the 6 Nations - kind of makes no sense.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Thu, 09 Mar 2017, 09:52

Thanks RL. I guess the REC want to prioritise making sure their games don't clash with the 6N where possible and this takes priority over avoiding a clash with the French league.

Perhaps RWC qualification in Europe should follow the example of South America and not be connected to the ARC / REC, but he seeded based on world ranking and take place during a conventional international test window to make sure all the best players are available.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 09 Mar 2017, 12:23

Bruce_ma_goose wrote:Thanks RL. I guess the REC want to prioritise making sure their games don't clash with the 6N where possible and this takes priority over avoiding a clash with the French league.

Perhaps RWC qualification in Europe should follow the example of South America and not be connected to the ARC / REC, but he seeded based on world ranking and take place during a conventional international test window to make sure all the best players are available.


Not sure if this is comparable. Why play the very same teams again? Your suggestion would make a lot of sense, if automatic qualification would be skipped and the 6N teams would take part, but even then you would need some sort of qualifier for it and it would again be the REC.

Remember the REC is not a closed shop. It is the pinnacle of more than 30 nations. Every single oner of those nations does actually have a chance to qualify for the RWC. Even if they are in the lowest division atm.

The European qualification mode is great. Why change it, just because some tier1 nations again don't play by their own rules.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 09 Mar 2017, 13:18

If we're going to start a new rant about Tier 1 and their links with Rugby Europe, let me say something: why must we suffer in REC subpar refereeing? Am I very mistaken if I say 6N seem to send us development referees that don't improve what we have among Tier 2 & 3 nations?

I know it isn't easy to referee this days without TMO, but some decision so far have been appaling. And please, don't consider I'm whining because my team has both benefitted and lost by this kind of refereeing.

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Re: REC day 4 Germany vs. Spain

Postby victorsra » Thu, 09 Mar 2017, 19:27

Not sure if this is comparable. Why play the very same teams again? Your suggestion would make a lot of sense, if automatic qualification would be skipped and the 6N teams would take part, but even then you would need some sort of qualifier for it and it would again be the REC.


In South America's case I don't see any problem in playing Uruguay and Chile twice a year, it is good in fact. But we don't have many close countries to play with.

Europe's number one problem is calendar. The clubs pay the players' salaries and European clubs play more than double of the matches a Super Rugby franchise play for exemple. European professional clubs play 24 (22+ playoffs in the British Isles) to 29 (26 + playoffs in France) rounds in domestic leagues + 9-rounds European Cups = 38 rounds. French 2nd division has 32 rounds (30+playoffs)! It will obviously have club rugby and national teams clashing. Rugby is played once a week, it is not like football that can be played twice a week. Who pays the salaries will of course make more pression.

The Unions can't say f*ck off to clubs unless the Unions start to pay them and compete with clubs (which turns the national team into clubs...).

Just to note, we are talking about a 40-weeks period, from September to May (as June is for national teams, july for vacation and august pre-season... although the French Top 14 starts in August).

For me the first part of the solution is to deal with those club season in a way that clubs have two types of national competitions, the "prime" competitions, the Leagues, with a reduced number of matches (more or less with the number of rounds Super Rugby has) and the "other" competitions (like the Anglo-Wlesh Cup) that clubs won't have national team players. European Cup + National League should have maximum of 30 matches together (Super Rugby has 20... but European doesn't have those distances). But how this would impact their broadcast deals?
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