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RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 15:16

the original intention of REC was to play with the same rules as 6N

NO WAY :!:

Albeit I'm just a humble door-keeper | devoted table-maker,
I DO have access to some INSIDE info

1) RE tries to sell itself as a more advanced, modern, pro-active rugby body than SACRED | F@$%ING 6N

2) H2H rule is an old French tradition, and ENC | REC has already used it for 18 seasons (since 2000)

It never seemed UNFAIR :!: Why then change it :?:

@

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby Kiroshi » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 17:20


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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby amz » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 17:23

It was just a hunch about updating the manual, nothing more. Now that you mention is such an old rule it looks even more confusing.

About this rule, it may be considered as being advantageous for the home playing team in the respective year.

I was watching the match with some friends from UK and they asked about the tie rules. I was fairly sure is H2H so that's what I've told them during the match but to my surprise Georgia was declared the winner. I didn't had the means to check on spot the manual so I assumed they change it to resemble with 6N. While discussing this I remembered that they changed something (probably the bonus point system) to resemble 6N and I thought this may be they changed this rule too. Anyway, turned out later that they repaired it :)

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Tue, 21 Mar 2017, 09:17

So WHY | WHAT FOR

French, Georgians, RE ... keep that H2H rule?

It's more PRAGMATIC and HONEST,
and defends the INTEGRITY of the comp

Contrary, we have seen NUMEROUS times

1) in SEVENS,
2) on 6N Super Saturday and
3) last Round of Super Rugby

when rivals are chasing needed ENORMOUS margins
and regularly GETTING them in laughable fashion,

thanks to some DUBIOUS strategies and
OBVIOUS lack of WILL from opposition

:!: H2H rule ERADICATES those shenanigans

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 21 Mar 2017, 09:23

FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:
:!: H2H rule ERADICATES those shenanigans


Not entirely because of bonus points, but it is indeed a good rule.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby RugbyPUBtbilisi » Tue, 21 Mar 2017, 16:01

amz wrote:You guys seem more upset than Romanians, why? These things may happen, good that they did corrected the mistake immediately.


Because it is amateurism. There was not anyone from REC who could open the public file placed on their own site and decide correctly who was actual winner of the championship.

This kind of crap must not be left without punishment, its simply not caring about the tournament. I hope next president of REC will be better than Morariu and will make a full reorganization.

Anyways U20 Championship is close, also RWC draw. I hope Milton will finally try young back line rather than Kvirikashvili and Khmaladze, there quite a few promising wingers who can replace Kvirikashvili, Todua, Tsiklauri and Aptsiauri.
Hope milton will give them a chance in Summer tour to Americas.

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby amz » Tue, 21 Mar 2017, 16:09

I think you make a too big case of it. Happened at Oscars too and that isn't amateur at all. Mistakes could happen, it was embarassing indeed but we've seen worse. Or you forgot the times when we didn't have streams for half of the game? Now we have for U20s :) I think most of Georgian supporters are so vocal because they don't like having a Romanian in charge.

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby RugbyPUBtbilisi » Tue, 21 Mar 2017, 16:27

amz wrote:I think you make a too big case of it. Happened at Oscars too and that isn't amateur at all. Mistakes could happen, it was embarassing indeed but we've seen worse. Or you forgot the times when we didn't have streams for half of the game? Now we have for U20s :) I think most of Georgian supporters are so vocal because they don't like having a Romanian in charge.


So u think its about ethnic background? Nothing to do about wrong announcement of champion? Is it tolerable?
Oscars and miss universe are shows, planned to attract people, make a scandals and such things.

REC is sport and its management must be clever enough and interested enough to count the points.
I knew all the possible outcome and its results, i knew that if Georgia win or draw vs Romania champion will be Lelos, i knew that if they loose less than 7 points champion will be Oaks. You know why? because i am interested in rugby its my favorite sport, i watch rugby, i read about it and i enjoy a lot with this game and am clever enough to open the god damn public file on REC web site and read the privileged positions during same amount of points in the season.

So keep your ethnic crap that insults me and other fans. Its not about ethnicity but about professionalism!
This kind of shit will not happen in any serious competition.

And if it happens it must have pretty bad replies and punishment for not caring about championship, ability to read about it at least.

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Tue, 21 Mar 2017, 16:43

Georgian supporters are so vocal because
they don't like having a Romanian in charge

NO, sir

We are vocal, because

(1) we LOST on the field and
were RIDUCULED in public by being presented a sham-trophy
which we had NOT won this time round, and
felt SOMETHING went too awry BUT beyond our REPROACH

(2) during TWO FULL HOURS - from fulltime to clearance of that SHIT:

Georgia RU site and media STAFF, plus 1TV commentary CREW,
were subjected to an unprecendented ATTACK in GEO web-space:

PEOPLE who do, and have DONE their JOB soundly that evening,
have copped unwarranted CRITICISM caused by
BLOODY UN-PROFESSIONALISM and lack of CARE from FOREIGN RULERS:

GUYS who were SPOT ON from the outset and
stated that ROMANIA won BOTH TROPHIES on offer,
were ABUSED by unknown MOB: called IGNORANTS, DICKS etc

(+) WILL MORARIU and his underlings EVER comprehend this
and OFFER separate APOLOGIES to those victims?

@

I've NOT joined that ANTIM BRAWL for a reason -
as I had established THAT CUP myself in 2002,
but I'll NEVER tolerate such treatment of RUGBY
whoever it come from: Romanian, Morroccan, Irish or Eskimo

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby amz » Tue, 21 Mar 2017, 18:49

FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:
Georgian supporters are so vocal because
they don't like having a Romanian in charge

NO, sir

We are vocal, because

(1) we LOST on the field and
were RIDUCULED in public by being presented a sham-trophy
which we had NOT won this time round, and
felt SOMETHING went too awry BUT beyond our REPROACH

(2) during TWO FULL HOURS - from fulltime to clearance of that SHIT:

Georgia RU site and media STAFF, plus 1TV commentary CREW,
were subjected to an unprecendented ATTACK in GEO web-space:

PEOPLE who do, and have DONE their JOB soundly that evening,
have copped unwarranted CRITICISM caused by
BLOODY UN-PROFESSIONALISM and lack of CARE from FOREIGN RULERS:

GUYS who were SPOT ON from the outset and
stated that ROMANIA won BOTH TROPHIES on offer,
were ABUSED by unknown MOB: called IGNORANTS, DICKS etc

(+) WILL MORARIU and his underlings EVER comprehend this
and OFFER separate APOLOGIES to those victims?


I highly doubt this was meant to ridicule Lelos, their staff or fans. If an unknown mob attacked people who were spot on, than this happens on internet. I think it was an overreaction really.


FLIDTA RISXVA wrote:I've NOT joined that ANTIM BRAWL for a reason -
as I had established THAT CUP myself in 2002,
but I'll NEVER tolerate such treatment of RUGBY
whoever it come from: Romanian, Morroccan, Irish or Eskimo


Well, I remember you were into some Antim brawls yourself on old FIRA website but obviously people can change their mind. :thumbup: ;)

@RugbyPUB, calm your tits.

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 21 Mar 2017, 19:04

head 2 head is much fairer than points difference.

If two teams have gained the same points in their fixtures it seems to me clear that the winner between them should get preference. They won the match. Its no greater advantage for the home side than having a trophy every season before the H/A series has been completed.

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby Coloradoan » Tue, 21 Mar 2017, 20:15

sk 88 wrote:head 2 head is much fairer than points difference.

If two teams have gained the same points in their fixtures it seems to me clear that the winner between them should get preference. They won the match. Its no greater advantage for the home side than having a trophy every season before the H/A series has been completed.


How is it fairer than points difference? Points difference is more reflective of the team's overall ability across the competition. And by doing it over 5 games, you at least better mitigate the home/away split than by using a single match.

I don't buy the "they won the match" argument either. If they finish level on points, that also means they lost a match elsewhere that the other team did not. Romania lost to Germany. Georgia did not.

The fairest thing would probably be to use head to head as the tiebreaker, but adjust for home field advantage (say around 5 points?). A team who wins at home by 1 really shouldn't get to use head to head as a tie breaker in their favor.

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby ultravioletu » Tue, 21 Mar 2017, 21:45

Coloradoan wrote:How is it fairer than points difference? Points difference is more reflective of the team's overall ability across the competition. And by doing it over 5 games, you at least better mitigate the home/away split than by using a single match.
It isn't less fair either. I personally prefer the PD too, but it may be misleading if the teams in question had different number of home and away games. Or if they meet differently the very team that shows two faces when playing home vs. away, like Italy usually does in Six Nations. Or Germany in REC.

But it's irrrelavant. Quibbling about the "fairness" of H2H vs. PD in the world of modern rugby, like all else is now fair, everyone have equal chances and all other problems are solved... hmm. But most importantly: as FLIDTA said, this is the tradition of FIRA/ENC/REC, period.

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 22 Mar 2017, 07:38

ultravioletu wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:How is it fairer than points difference? Points difference is more reflective of the team's overall ability across the competition. And by doing it over 5 games, you at least better mitigate the home/away split than by using a single match.
It isn't less fair either. I personally prefer the PD too, but it may be misleading if the teams in question had different number of home and away games. Or if they meet differently the very team that shows two faces when playing home vs. away, like Italy usually does in Six Nations. Or Germany in REC.

But it's irrrelavant. Quibbling about the "fairness" of H2H vs. PD in the world of modern rugby, like all else is now fair, everyone have equal chances and all other problems are solved... hmm. But most importantly: as FLIDTA said, this is the tradition of FIRA/ENC/REC, period.


It is siginificantly fairer this year and the next as Georgia hasn't even played a "best possible" side apart from Romania and maybe Russia (to be fair Georgia didn't play with their best sides either). Also we are just talking about the very rare case of two teams having equal table points. Georgia lost the championship basically because Russia scored a try in the 75th minute of their game and therefore denying them the offensive bonus point of 3 tries more than your opponent.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby Bogdan_DC » Wed, 22 Mar 2017, 07:43

RugbyLiebe wrote:
ultravioletu wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:How is it fairer than points difference? Points difference is more reflective of the team's overall ability across the competition. And by doing it over 5 games, you at least better mitigate the home/away split than by using a single match.
It isn't less fair either. I personally prefer the PD too, but it may be misleading if the teams in question had different number of home and away games. Or if they meet differently the very team that shows two faces when playing home vs. away, like Italy usually does in Six Nations. Or Germany in REC.

But it's irrrelavant. Quibbling about the "fairness" of H2H vs. PD in the world of modern rugby, like all else is now fair, everyone have equal chances and all other problems are solved... hmm. But most importantly: as FLIDTA said, this is the tradition of FIRA/ENC/REC, period.


It is siginificantly fairer this year and the next as Georgia hasn't even played a "best possible" side apart from Romania and maybe Russia (to be fair Georgia didn't play with their best sides either). Also we are just talking about the very rare case of two teams having equal table points. Georgia lost the championship basically because Russia scored a try in the 75th minute of their game and therefore denying them the offensive bonus point of 3 tries more than your opponent.
And Romania could win this by far IF they didn't lost to Germany. A lot of "IFs"....

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby amz » Wed, 22 Mar 2017, 08:09

Romania didn't field best team either in none of the matches from this year REC.

Although I don't deny the obvious progress of Adlers, I do think that match was an accident mainly due to a brain fart of some of the players and we won't see something similar soon.

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby fullbackace » Wed, 22 Mar 2017, 08:21

It doesn't matter guys, Romania won, deservedly. We can move on and focus on more important things. Like what teams we want in our groups.
Don't Pray For Easy lives, Pray for enough Beer!

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 22 Mar 2017, 08:41

amz wrote:Romania didn't field best team either in none of the matches from this year REC.

Although I don't deny the obvious progress of Adlers, I do think that match was an accident mainly due to a brain fart of some of the players and we won't see something similar soon.


Come on, this was discussed long enough. Romania fielded their best side in Germany. If you follow your logic you didn't field your best team against Georgia because with Lazar one player was missing who played against Germany. Go back to the thread or simply trust what your national coach said before the game. Germany had simply longer preparation time together this combined with the undeniable "brain fart" and that really everything went together for Germany in the end is the reason Romania lost.

Still it was hardly a surprise that a German victory could happen one day as the last result from Germany at home against Romania was a defensive bonus point loss (12:19). I reckon we all remember the drop goal the German hooker scored in that match.

But don't ever bring up that lame excuse that Romania didn't field their best team against Germany. ROMANIA DID. That's what happens in sport better teams do lose.

Bogdan_DC wrote:And Romania could win this by far IF they didn't lost to Germany. A lot of "IFs"....


Exactly. A lot of IFs which make this decider very rarely happen. Still I think it is more just than simply points.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby amz » Wed, 22 Mar 2017, 08:59

I was refering to REC, not Germany specifically. Macovei, V. Ursache and not counting the injured ones (Burcea, Kinikinilau). Mind you, three of them were captains at RWC or in 2016.

Also, go back to the respective discussion, I think I was among the first saying that the loss didn't have anything to do with missing some players. And I didn't mentioned anything about ref and I won't start now. But for the duration of the REC, Romania didn't fielded best team available.

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 22 Mar 2017, 09:43

amz wrote:I was refering to REC, not Germany specifically. Macovei, V. Ursache and not counting the injured ones (Burcea, Kinikinilau). Mind you, three of them were captains at RWC or in 2016.

Also, go back to the respective discussion, I think I was among the first saying that the loss didn't have anything to do with missing some players. And I didn't mentioned anything about ref and I won't start now. But for the duration of the REC, Romania didn't fielded best team available.


Fair enough. I simply think that no side in the history of team sport has ever fielded the best possible team as ALWAYS someone is injured or out of form etc. Especially rugby where you need 15 guys. Best team is always a retrospective thing.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 22 Mar 2017, 11:49

Coloradoan wrote:
sk 88 wrote:head 2 head is much fairer than points difference.

If two teams have gained the same points in their fixtures it seems to me clear that the winner between them should get preference. They won the match. Its no greater advantage for the home side than having a trophy every season before the H/A series has been completed.


How is it fairer than points difference? Points difference is more reflective of the team's overall ability across the competition. And by doing it over 5 games, you at least better mitigate the home/away split than by using a single match.

I don't buy the "they won the match" argument either. If they finish level on points, that also means they lost a match elsewhere that the other team did not. Romania lost to Germany. Georgia did not.

The fairest thing would probably be to use head to head as the tiebreaker, but adjust for home field advantage (say around 5 points?). A team who wins at home by 1 really shouldn't get to use head to head as a tie breaker in their favor.



Because tournaments are about winning important matches, not being rewarded for piling the score up against shit opposition.

Head 2 head is also fairer because if two teams are tied the point of the table is to tell us who is better. The better team is the one that has won the game between them. Not the one that bullied the weak teams in the group the best.

Points difference rewards flat track bullies over those that win tight matches.

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby Bogdan_DC » Wed, 22 Mar 2017, 12:05

It depends on the competition. If you have more teams of about same level, points criteria should be the decider. H2H is better if you have some big difference between teams.I think REC is in the second category even if this year was more entertaining than usually.

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby RugbyPUBtbilisi » Wed, 22 Mar 2017, 17:04

Romania could win this by far IF they didn't lost to Germany....

Really? So Oaks win by 1 point and last years 29+ loss is forgotten?
Remember that Oaks will arrive in tbilisi next year. How do you think is it possible to extend the record winning margin?
30+ for example.

In 2018 there will be only RWC candidates and 2019 Lelos will visit bucharest with a full strength.

This years lelos pack was 23.4 years average, oaks 27.1

Todays Oaks leaders will be 30-35 years old for 2019. And i cant see any prospects to change them. So last word will be told in 2019.

Interesting fact Milton haig had 35 matches in REC, 32 vicory, 1 draw, 2 defeat.

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby amz » Wed, 22 Mar 2017, 17:33

Salty

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Re: RE DECIDER: 19 MARCH * ROMANIA - GEORGIA

Postby Bogdan_DC » Wed, 22 Mar 2017, 21:31

Dude do even bothered to read what i wrote?do you UNDERSTAND what you read?Breathe.read.breathe.Repeat this 3 times and if you are still mad go out for some medical help.Ps.quick tip: I wasn't wrote about Georgia!i wasn't offend Georgia!i don't care about Georgia!

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