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World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term calend

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 19 Mar 2017, 11:23

We need to take into consideration that we may be interpreting things a bit too literally with this plan, just because certain T2 nations are mentioned doesn't mean other nations are going to be overlooked. But I still think World Rugby needs to start redefining the status of the tiers and setting out an actual criteria to define what constitutes a T1 nation from a T2 and T3 nations. It can't just be on field performance otherwise Italy wouldn't qualify. I think for a nation to qualify as T1 it should have the following criteria:

• Professional domestic league or team/s in a provincial based international competition
• Majority of national players to be professionals
• At least 4 appearances at the Rugby World Cup
• At least one victory over 6N or RC nation in the last 3 years
• Average home test match attendance over the last 3 years to be at least 15,000 (exemptions can be made here)

That's a basic criteria that fits every RC and 6N team. Under that criteria Japan would qualify as a T1.

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby Neptune » Sun, 19 Mar 2017, 11:29

thatrugbyguy wrote:We need to take into consideration that we may be interpreting things a bit too literally with this plan, just because certain T2 nations are mentioned doesn't mean other nations are going to be overlooked. But I still think World Rugby needs to start redefining the status of the tiers and setting out an actual criteria to define what constitutes a T1 nation from a T2 and T3 nations. It can't just be on field performance otherwise Italy wouldn't qualify. I think for a nation to qualify as T1 it should have the following criteria:

• Professional domestic league or team/s in a provincial based international competition
• Majority of national players to be professionals
• At least 4 appearances at the Rugby World Cup
• At least one victory over 6N or RC nation in the last 3 years
• Average home test match attendance over the last 3 years to be at least 15,000 (exemptions can be made here)

That's a basic criteria that fits every RC and 6N team. Under that criteria Japan would qualify as a T1.


Finally, someone in this group who speaks sense. The rest of you are just vouching for your individual countries and want to maintain the status quo. Apparently in Africa and Asia there are no tier 2 countries from WR's statements. It's just South Africa and Japan. The rest are at the bottom of the pile.

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Sun, 19 Mar 2017, 12:59

That is a little harsh Neptune. I think people that are in a forum for Tier 2 & 3 rugby are all keen to see the game expand globally. I think it is going to be difficult for Kenya and Namibia with the June/July tours being cut to two games instead of three. This means there is likely less opportunity for a match against them to be combined with a tour of South Africa (it has always annoyed me how that never happens and instead there is always a third game against South Africa). Hopefully I am wrong and Kenya and Nambia are not overlooked.

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby Neptune » Sun, 19 Mar 2017, 13:22

Bruce_ma_goose wrote:That is a little harsh Neptune. I think people that are in a forum for Tier 2 & 3 rugby are all keen to see the game expand globally. I think it is going to be difficult for Kenya and Namibia with the June/July tours being cut to two games instead of three. This means there is likely less opportunity for a match against them to be combined with a tour of South Africa (it has always annoyed me how that never happens and instead there is always a third game against South Africa). Hopefully I am wrong and Kenya and Nambia are not overlooked.


Sorry Bruce, ;) , I agree that was a little harsh, but after been sidelined in cricket by the ICC, and now WR seems to be sidelining Africa in rugby, despite our efforts in 7s rugby, and now trying to break into 15s rugby, it feels abit frustrating. You can actually see where I am coming from.

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby LeesLegends » Sun, 19 Mar 2017, 14:33

Best news about the July window being pushed back. Was always nonsensical to have a break in the Super Rugby season right before the playoffs. Will take a little bit of rescheduling from the NH but once you get used to it you wont mind it.

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby Silver Fox » Sun, 19 Mar 2017, 18:14

thatrugbyguy wrote:We need to take into consideration that we may be interpreting things a bit too literally with this plan, just because certain T2 nations are mentioned doesn't mean other nations are going to be overlooked. But I still think World Rugby needs to start redefining the status of the tiers and setting out an actual criteria to define what constitutes a T1 nation from a T2 and T3 nations. It can't just be on field performance otherwise Italy wouldn't qualify. I think for a nation to qualify as T1 it should have the following criteria:

• Professional domestic league or team/s in a provincial based international competition
• Majority of national players to be professionals
• At least 4 appearances at the Rugby World Cup
• At least one victory over 6N or RC nation in the last 3 years
• Average home test match attendance over the last 3 years to be at least 15,000 (exemptions can be made here)

That's a basic criteria that fits every RC and 6N team. Under that criteria Japan would qualify as a T1.
Now that's good constructive thinking TRG.
These are the kind of conditions the 6Nations committee should reply with when discussing a 6N expansion. That they don't want a devaluation of their product is logical and not something anyone should want. Instead of simply keeping the door shut they could also say:"We are open for discussion to widen the 6Nations footprint across Europe, with involvement under the condition of compliance with the TRG criteria for tier one nations. "

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby Thomas » Sun, 19 Mar 2017, 19:16

I for one I am not convinced with the changes irrespective of T2 – T3 Nations getting more tests or not… I have re-read the statement and what has been released publicly and from a coaching point of view this is skewed in favoured of the SH Nations and doesn’t help player rotation or welfare.

For example lets imaging the changes do happen say next season and using the blue print I see the below problems:

1. First of all the North Hemisphere would run from September to July with August as Off-Season (1 month), The Southern Hemisphere starts from January to November with an offseason in their summer months (2 month break).

2. I see a never ending season, little surprised the SH are so happy about the changes and WR in overdrive trying to pull the wool over our eyes. As a Medical Professional I am not fully convinced about the Player rotation and that it will be better managed, we need less Rugby no more this is going in the wrong direction. McCafferty the Premiership Chief Exec is not impartial if he says otherwise as he was part of the negotiations.

3. 6 Nations has been cut from 6 to 7 Weeks by removing one of the rest weeks, it has also been stated that there is a possibility of running the Anglo-Welsh cup alongside 6N and make it more exciting and expand the cup?? Not sure how this will help in bringing in a T2 nation.

4. Lions Tours are victims from 10 matches to 8 !! With the Tour over and done in a month or so. Whatever happened to Team Bonding? It seems to me is straight to the test series so any Lions Games against emerging sides: I.E. Pacific Island XV or South America XV etc. will be a thing of the past or no more Lions against Argentina.

5. The Biggest anomaly as I see it, if the Tours are in July in SH and the Final is in June when will teams prepare for Touring? How many weeks for the national sides to get ready? There is no preparation time.

The SH side will have uninterrupted International Rugby in that window if you include the Rugby Championship and the Bledisloe Cup before going to Europe and play in November which would start a week earlier. With that in mind the SH will have the upper hand and have more cohesive international sides than their NH counterparts.

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby sk 88 » Sun, 19 Mar 2017, 20:48

LeesLegends wrote:Best news about the July window being pushed back. Was always nonsensical to have a break in the Super Rugby season right before the playoffs. Will take a little bit of rescheduling from the NH but once you get used to it you wont mind it.


Well you only had the gap because you expanded the tournament beyond the old June window. What's to stop Super Rugby expanding into August and causing the same issues again in 10 years?

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby Thomas » Sun, 19 Mar 2017, 20:59

sk 88 wrote:
LeesLegends wrote:Best news about the July window being pushed back. Was always nonsensical to have a break in the Super Rugby season right before the playoffs. Will take a little bit of rescheduling from the NH but once you get used to it you wont mind it.


Well you only had the gap because you expanded the tournament beyond the old June window. What's to stop Super Rugby expanding into August and causing the same issues again in 10 years?


I agree forgot about the old window and SR taking advantage of this. The expansion of adding more teams has created havoc with the schedule and impinging on the international schedule.

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sun, 19 Mar 2017, 23:38

thatrugbyguy wrote:We need to take into consideration that we may be interpreting things a bit too literally with this plan, just because certain T2 nations are mentioned doesn't mean other nations are going to be overlooked. But I still think World Rugby needs to start redefining the status of the tiers and setting out an actual criteria to define what constitutes a T1 nation from a T2 and T3 nations. It can't just be on field performance otherwise Italy wouldn't qualify. I think for a nation to qualify as T1 it should have the following criteria:

• Professional domestic league or team/s in a provincial based international competition
• Majority of national players to be professionals
• At least 4 appearances at the Rugby World Cup
• At least one victory over 6N or RC nation in the last 3 years
• Average home test match attendance over the last 3 years to be at least 15,000 (exemptions can be made here)

That's a basic criteria that fits every RC and 6N team. Under that criteria Japan would qualify as a T1.


Something like this perhaps. http://www.theroar.com.au/2017/03/13/wo ... y-forward/

I took inspiration from a piece on thisisamericanrugby. I did credit it in my submitted article but they edited it out. The premise is basically using exosting structures such as the REC, ARC and PRC etc. to build a professional T2 structure. Part of it would involve expanding the length of these to double round competitions offering 10 in the first phase. With the top 2 from each moving onto a finals series in a tournament format.

I suggest playing national squads under centralized franchise locations ideally centred around where these teams are currently based .i.e. Montevideo for Uruguay etc. and a couple of othrr locales such as cities on the West Coast of NA. But that isn't all that necessary. I just thought that if or when a country has the depth to add a second squad that it would make it a little easier.

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 00:41

I'll add T2 and T3 criteria:

T2 criteria:
• Semi-professional domestic league or team/s in international provincial league or domestic league building towards full professionalism
• At least 50% of national team to be playing in overseas pro leagues
• At least 2 appearances at the Rugby World Cup
• Must play on average at least 5 test matches a year for the past 3 years
• Average home test match attendance over last 3 years to be at least 5,000 (exceptions can be made)

T3 criteria
• Amateur league or league building towards semi-professionalism
• No minimum requirement for professionals in national team
• No required number of Rugby World Cup appearances
• Must play at least 3 tests matches a year
• No minimum requirements for home test match attendance

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby LeesLegends » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 03:36

sk 88 wrote:
LeesLegends wrote:Best news about the July window being pushed back. Was always nonsensical to have a break in the Super Rugby season right before the playoffs. Will take a little bit of rescheduling from the NH but once you get used to it you wont mind it.


Well you only had the gap because you expanded the tournament beyond the old June window. What's to stop Super Rugby expanding into August and causing the same issues again in 10 years?


Even with the Super Rugby expanding it is still considerably shorter than the leagues in Europe.

EDIT: It won't expand again anyway at least in the near future, they are looking at cutting 2 or 3 of the teams.

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby victorsra » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 05:22

• Professional domestic league or team/s in a provincial based international competition
• Majority of national players to be professionals
• At least 4 appearances at the Rugby World Cup
• At least one victory over 6N or RC nation in the last 3 years
• Average home test match attendance over the last 3 years to be at least 15,000 (exemptions can be made here)


TRG's criteria is great and looks much more clear than WR's. However, the only issue I see are the PIs. A country like Tonga and even Samoa are too small/poor to have a professional team or to average 15.000. But they could be able to manage an impressive sequence of victories against T1s with a decent generation if all their professional players are available regularly. A T2 status would be irrealistic if they were able to unite their national teams in the best way and start beating more than one T1 every year.

Also the RWC appearences should be 4 times in the 4 last WCs.

T2 criteria:
• Semi-professional domestic league or team/s in international provincial league or domestic league building towards full professionalism
• At least 50% of national team to be playing in overseas pro leagues
• At least 2 appearances at the Rugby World Cup
• Must play on average at least 5 test matches a year for the past 3 years
• Average home test match attendance over last 3 years to be at least 5,000 (exceptions can be made)

T3 criteria
• Amateur league or league building towards semi-professionalism
• No minimum requirement for professionals in national team
• No required number of Rugby World Cup appearances
• Must play at least 3 tests matches a year
• No minimum requirements for home test match attendance


2 RWC appearences in the 2 last WCs too... otherwise it would be not about the present.

I don't like the overseas pro leagues criteria. It does not mean that much, specially if a country is just using players that were born or raised in those T1 countries. It would be just fake. Besides if you look at Brazil CBRu brought players from abroad to centralize them in our new high performance academies. It is an option, to make unit in the team instead of just just counting with the overseas professionals for a short (and costly) time.
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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby Thomas » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 06:21

I would add to the criteria and have it written in, Make it mandatory Women's and Youth development programs. Not just 7'a Rugby but XV as well particularly in the case for women's Rugby. tie it with the Women's Rugby World Cup.

Sometimes this is overlooked or not given the attention it deserves.
Last edited by Thomas on Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 08:50, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby BertSolomon » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 08:13

Neptune wrote:after been sidelined in cricket by the ICC, and now WR seems to be sidelining Africa in rugby, despite our efforts in 7s rugby, and now trying to break into 15s rugby, it feels abit frustrating.


The ICC's attitude to Kenya, particularly after the 2003 WC, was shameful. I understand there have been issues in Kenyan cricket administration, but had Kenya been made a test nation in 2003, I can't believe cricket there would have gone backwards the way it has. But the ICC and WR have very similar attitudes to 'growing the game'...

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby Neptune » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 08:23

BertSolomon wrote:
Neptune wrote:after been sidelined in cricket by the ICC, and now WR seems to be sidelining Africa in rugby, despite our efforts in 7s rugby, and now trying to break into 15s rugby, it feels abit frustrating.


The ICC's attitude to Kenya, particularly after the 2003 WC, was shameful. I understand there have been issues in Kenyan cricket administration, but had Kenya been made a test nation in 2003, I can't believe cricket there would have gone backwards the way it has. But the ICC and WR have very similar attitudes to 'growing the game'...


Yes BertSolomon, that we can agree upon. My question is, why do they have a negative attitude towards growth, yet growth worldwide can increase the amount in their wallets tenfold. :|

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 10:00

Because growth means the status quo won't be able to maintain control. The problem rugby has is they want to grow the game, but they can't risk doing it at the expense of the nations who currently bring in most of the money. Cricket however just doesn't give a crap, as long as India are the ones bringing in the money that's all they care about.

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby BertSolomon » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 15:30

thatrugbyguy wrote:Because growth means the status quo won't be able to maintain control.


Correct.

thatrugbyguy wrote:The problem rugby has is they want to grow the game, but they can't risk doing it at the expense of the nations who currently bring in most of the money.


I don't think it's that they can't, more that they don't want to. Some Tier 1s are small countries in global terms (the Celts and NZ have a combined population of 20m or less) and they like being big fish in a small pond. If say, the USA or Germany - with their huge markets - ever reached the top table, then these smaller tier 1s would find their power diluted dramatically. And they know that, which is why the Celts support each other on key votes.

thatrugbyguy wrote:Cricket however just doesn't give a crap, as long as India are the ones bringing in the money that's all they care about.


Yep. Or you could say they just have to agree with India on everything.

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby victorsra » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 16:58

I would make a few changes in the T1s criterea:

• Professional domestic league or team/s in a provincial based international competition or in another T1's top domestic league*;
75% of national team players born in the country or living there since at least 16 years;
95% of national team players must be full-time professionals;
• At least 3 appearances at the Rugby World Cup in the last 4 WCs
• At least two victories over 6N or RC nation in the last 3 years**
• Average home test match attendance over the last 3 years to be at least 15,000 (not applied for countries that don't have football stadiums of any code with at least 20.000 places)
Professional administrative staffs with full time marketing/communication and development managers


*If countries like Namibia and the PIs have a regular team in South Africa, Australia or NZ national leagues and start to have all those impressive numbers of victories they should be awarded a T1 status... their national economies wouldn't sustain a Super Rugby franchise... it would be just an adaptation to reward small/poor nations where rugby is highly popular and organized the best way possible.

**1 victory can be an "accident"
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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby iul » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 20:00

victorsra wrote:• At least two victories over 6N or RC nation in the last 3 years**
• Average home test match attendance over the last 3 years to be at least 15,000 (not applied for countries that don't have football stadiums of any code with at least 20.000 places)

T2s don't get enough playing opportunities against T1s to get the two wins in 3 years.
Tonga has a very small population, it'd be impossible for them to average 15k.

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby victorsra » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 21:44

I agree, but with new WR promises they will have more opportunities. Winning just once can have many explanations rather there being a "new T1".

Tonga has a very small population, it'd be impossible for them to average 15k.


Of course, that is exactly why I wrote that! Countries that don't have stadiums with more than 20k can't be judged by the attendances!

But a country with big soccer stadiums that can't rent them and can't fill them is not a new T1.
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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 20 Mar 2017, 21:57

That's why I wrote there could be exemptions for the crowd average. It's more reasonable to say to Romania "you have to average 15,000 home test crowds to be granted T1 status', than it is to say it to Tonga or Samoa.

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby Datiko » Tue, 21 Mar 2017, 02:42

Wendigo7 wrote:Are you mad?

Tours are what make rugby great. I really, really do not want an ascension to football which is include for the sake of include and rant about this and that when it's still the same teams winning things.

I'd love to see Georgia, USA and co do tours of the UK. I love the lions and the baabaas. These are concepts which must be kept.


Tours make Rugby great for people from the home islands. The whole Lions concept is fine but the fact that entire sport needs to be governed around a British and Irish need to send an all-star team to their former colonies is ridiculous. It does nothing for the growth of the game. Playing high quality games around the world does. Rugby is apparently so fragile that the sport will die if any of its dozens of "historic" matches can't be played once.

You malign football but football has eclipsed rugby by every measurable standard. More people watch it, more people play it, more people attend it live, players make more money, and its video game is one of the most played in the world. Kids in all markets are being bombarded by football while rugby is happy to sit in its private little corner playing the same game over and over again. My biggest dream is that the US professionalizes against all odds and gets the funding of MLS. Even as a second tier sport in America the league would be bigger than the premiership and top 14 combined. Then world rugby would be forced to make changes and take the game to its full potential.

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 21 Mar 2017, 04:09

Professional leagues have to come from more than the US. We need more of them have to sprout up in other places. Canada, Spain, Brazil, Germany, China, etc. Combine that with Japan and Romania that's when the tide might start turning in there being a genuine power shift in world rugby. This is why there needs to be outside investment to help foster these type of nations. China's already got help in that regard, we need it for other nations too.

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Re: World Rugby announces historic agreement on long-term ca

Postby antlat » Tue, 21 Mar 2017, 04:35

What people seem to have forgotten, is that in the previous Test matches agreement, it only included Tier 1 nations. This is why the Tier 2 nations have had to fight tooth and nail to get fixtures against Tier 1 nations. There was no obligation for Tier 1 to play against anyone other than amongst themselves.

This current announcement of the Global Calendar for the first time ever in Rugby includes Tier 2 nations from the beginning. A step in the right direction.

I really wished that World Rugby's next big push is to establish all encompassing regional championships (Tier 1, 2 and 3 nations all involved) with qualifiers and a final tournament and eliminate the current divisional structures.

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