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Attendance in sports leagues

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 12 Apr 2017, 02:35

Just doing some research on the local pro leagues.

AFL Average attendance
2010 - 36,900
2016 - 31,900
2017 - 37,000 (big increase but that will more than likely drop as the season progresses)

NRL Average attendance
2010 - 16,400
2016 - 15,200
2017 - 14,200 (this is alarming already a few rounds in)

A-Leauge attendance
2010/11 - 8,700
2016/17 - 12,200

Super Rugby
2010 - 19,700
2016 - Can't find data.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 12 Apr 2017, 02:41

thatrugbyguy wrote:Just doing some research on the local pro leagues.

AFL Average attendance
2010 - 36,900
2016 - 31,900
2017 - 37,000 (big increase but that will more than likely drop as the season progresses)

NRL Average attendance
2010 - 16,400
2016 - 15,200
2017 - 14,200 (this is alarming already a few rounds in)

A-Leauge attendance
2010/11 - 8,700
2016/17 - 12,200

Super Rugby
2010 - 19,700
2016 - Can't find data.


SR crowds are down about 20%.

Regarding the NRL what's more alarming for them is TV ratings are down more than 15% even taking into account games being simulcast on both Nine and Fox League. In fact, if not for Fox League those figures would be worse.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 12 Apr 2017, 02:50

I was unaware of that.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 12 Apr 2017, 08:48

Working Class Rugger wrote:
SR crowds are down about 20%.

Regarding the NRL what's more alarming for them is TV ratings are down more than 15% even taking into account games being simulcast on both Nine and Fox League. In fact, if not for Fox League those figures would be worse.


Out of curiosity: are stream numbers counted in? 15% down by changing to legal streams is not totally unrealistic.
Last edited by RugbyLiebe on Wed, 12 Apr 2017, 09:03, edited 1 time in total.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 12 Apr 2017, 08:53

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:´.


SR crowds are down about 20%.

Regarding the NRL what's more alarming for them is TV ratings are down more than 15% even taking into account games being simulcast on both Nine and Fox League. In fact, if not for Fox League those figures would be worse.


Out of curiosity: are stream numbers counted in? 15% down by changing to legal streams is not totally unrealistic.[/quote]

There's really no need for streaming. Channel 9 is a FTA network so its reach is extensive. That said there is a digital option but it's not something widely utilised here as yet in terms of sport.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby Figaro » Wed, 12 Apr 2017, 08:58

Working Class Rugger wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:The TV problem is a problem of perceived (real?) lack of quality in the matches. Why watch that when you can watch a bunch of EPL or La Liga matches in a given weekend here on TV? They do well with attendances because they have good atmospheres in the stadium, which means the quality on the pitch doesn't matter as much.


It's an argument I have quite regularly with a number of people regarding our local league. In the 12 or so years its been in place it has more or less remained stagnant in regards to crowds and viewing. All this despite Soccer being the most played sport in the country.


You can read too much into "most played" stats. Some sports, by their nature, are just easier to play than others - it's very easy to get a few people and play a version of (association) football at a local park. It's almost impossible to do the same with Rugby. Also many sports are participated in by people who aren't necessarily remotely interested in the activity as a "game" or as a spectator, e.g., I cycle to work every day. If cycling is a sport, then I spend an hour 20m at it every day - that's quite a lot. But I've no interest in cycling as a spectator sport, and wouldn't say at all that I "participate in the sport of cycling", even though I do occasionally go out for a ride for pleasure. Yet some statistics would include me as a regular participant.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 12 Apr 2017, 09:13

Working Class Rugger wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:´.


SR crowds are down about 20%.

Regarding the NRL what's more alarming for them is TV ratings are down more than 15% even taking into account games being simulcast on both Nine and Fox League. In fact, if not for Fox League those figures would be worse.


Out of curiosity: are stream numbers counted in? 15% down by changing to legal streams is not totally unrealistic.


There's really no need for streaming. Channel 9 is a FTA network so its reach is extensive. That said there is a digital option but it's not something widely utilised here as yet in terms of sport.[/quote]

I asked because I do stream some FTA channels. But yeah, if this is not widely used that's bad signs for league.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby victorsra » Thu, 13 Apr 2017, 19:58

You can read too much into "most played" stats. Some sports, by their nature, are just easier to play than others - it's very easy to get a few people and play a version of (association) football at a local park. It's almost impossible to do the same with Rugby. Also many sports are participated in by people who aren't necessarily remotely interested in the activity as a "game" or as a spectator, e.g., I cycle to work every day. If cycling is a sport, then I spend an hour 20m at it every day - that's quite a lot. But I've no interest in cycling as a spectator sport, and wouldn't say at all that I "participate in the sport of cycling", even though I do occasionally go out for a ride for pleasure. Yet some statistics would include me as a regular participant.


I think most of the stats about "most popular" ou "most played" sports are simply uncritical. First, you should never compare "sport" with "physical activity". Sport is a game, physical activity is for health of simply pleasure, but it is a different sort of thing. You may go to the gym, ride a bike, run in the street, swim in the beach. This is different than play an organized sport. In fact sometimes you do those activities because you want to be fit to play another sport! And sport may not be exatly for health (in fact, we like a sport that can hurt more than benefit our health, come on!).

Second, you should split competitive sports from just fun or pedagogic games: playing according to the rules of a sport is different from kicking a ball in the park. Also, sports in schools are also a different thing, because they are part of a educational program and kids play many sport not exactly by choice. Exemple: I played volleyball because it was obligatory in the school. I hate it. I wanted to play soccer or basketball. And happily I discovered rugby at the university :)

Third, I think sensible to differ individual sports from team sports. Because you depend on many other things to be able to play regularly team sports. You might play an individual sport because it is easier for you (it needs less commitment), but your "favorite" sport might be a team sport that you can't commit yourself instead (because of time or money, as a team sport needs commitment to the group).
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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 13 Apr 2017, 20:20

BertSolomon wrote:Here is a fairly comprehensive list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... ts_leagues

One thing I find quite interesting is how countries whose best players are based abroad still get very good crowds in their domestic leagues. For example:
Argentine Primera División - average attendance 21,374
Eredivisie Netherlands - average attendance 19,412



Big problem with just a few of those,

Take the super rugby figure for instance, https://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/HomeAttendance?comp_id=477 and it has many flaws. Immediate ones that come straight to mind are that clearly it doesn't compare average attendances because a huge number of games are ignored. None of the teams have more than about 5 games counted and two only have one game counted!!

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 19 Apr 2017, 08:42

sk 88 wrote:
BertSolomon wrote:Here is a fairly comprehensive list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... ts_leagues

One thing I find quite interesting is how countries whose best players are based abroad still get very good crowds in their domestic leagues. For example:
Argentine Primera División - average attendance 21,374
Eredivisie Netherlands - average attendance 19,412



Big problem with just a few of those,

Take the super rugby figure for instance, https://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/HomeAttendance?comp_id=477 and it has many flaws. Immediate ones that come straight to mind are that clearly it doesn't compare average attendances because a huge number of games are ignored. None of the teams have more than about 5 games counted and two only have one game counted!!


I think that this is a problem quite Super Rugby exclusive. In no other sport, I've realized, that it is so hard to see official attendances as in Super Rugby. Quite unprofessional tbh.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby Thomas » Wed, 19 Apr 2017, 09:13

I have been searching and found the following information for Super Rugby since 2010 up until 2015 :

SANZAR is not exactly very forthcoming in their figures:

Average Total
2010 32,176 643,517 (SUPER 14)
2011 26,130 679,392 (SUPER 15)
2012 26,425 1,162,716(SUPER 15)
2013 19,644 2,003,641(SUPER 15)
2014 20,072 1,324,764 (SUPER 15)
2015 19,163 1,034,826 (SUPER 15)

This is the last 5 years and doesn't include last season the figures make sober reading. Question what was different in 2013??

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby Figaro » Wed, 19 Apr 2017, 09:20

Thomas wrote:I have been searching and found the following information for Super Rugby since 2010 up until 2015 :

SANZAR is not exactly very forthcoming in their figures:

Average Total
2010 32,176 643,517 (SUPER 14)
2011 26,130 679,392 (SUPER 15)
2012 26,425 1,162,716(SUPER 15)
2013 19,644 2,003,641(SUPER 15)
2014 20,072 1,324,764 (SUPER 15)
2015 19,163 1,034,826 (SUPER 15)

This is the last 5 years and doesn't include last season the figures make sober reading. Question what was different in 2013??


Those figures don't make any sense unless the number of games were different from season to season (which they presumably were in the change from 14 to 15, but I don't think the total number of games played changed during the 15-team period). How can the average have been much higher but the total much lower in 2011 compared to 2013, if the number of games played was the same?

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby Thomas » Wed, 19 Apr 2017, 09:36

I just realised 2 teams didn't provide official figures only 13 teams appear in 2011 hence the discrepancy. I have asked OPTA and Statbunker if they have any information available. even they struggle!

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 19 Apr 2017, 09:48

Figaro wrote:
Thomas wrote:I have been searching and found the following information for Super Rugby since 2010 up until 2015 :

SANZAR is not exactly very forthcoming in their figures:

Average Total
2010 32,176 643,517 (SUPER 14)
2011 26,130 679,392 (SUPER 15)
2012 26,425 1,162,716(SUPER 15)
2013 19,644 2,003,641(SUPER 15)
2014 20,072 1,324,764 (SUPER 15)
2015 19,163 1,034,826 (SUPER 15)

This is the last 5 years and doesn't include last season the figures make sober reading. Question what was different in 2013??


Those figures don't make any sense unless the number of games were different from season to season (which they presumably were in the change from 14 to 15, but I don't think the total number of games played changed during the 15-team period). How can the average have been much higher but the total much lower in 2011 compared to 2013, if the number of games played was the same?


There must be a mistake with the total numbers in 2013. What happened to the average number was maybe the Kings replacing the Lions.
Wikipedia has those numbers:
2010: 1,836,398 (19,536 per match)
2011: 2,430,624 (19,445 per match)
2012: 2,725,929 (21,807 per match)
2013: 2,547,978 (20,384 per match)
no numbers after that
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby Neptune » Wed, 19 Apr 2017, 11:52

Numbers in stadiums have always been key revenue generating organs for most sports.
In the 90's the number of people who attended volleyball matches were an average of 500 people per match.
On realising this, the world volleyball association, had an urgent meeting, to start increasing the numbers of people who came to watch the game.
One of the key decisions they made, was to reduce the size of the shorts for girls volleyball, and make them as body hugging as possible, while the tops were open ended to look as basketball beeps.
The kits for beach volleyball for ladies also changed from the previous baggy shorts to allow the ladies play in bikini's.
Although this law was detrimental for many conservative countries, the end result was a massive flow of spectators to these games.
Most of them who were men, never really knew the rules of volleyball, or paid particular interest to which teams were playing, but came for other reasons.
I don't need to spell it out in black and white why the men paid their hard earned money for a ticket to watch beach volleyball, but the end result was a massive flock of spectators.
Sometimes, the decisions made could be drastic, but could be for the greater good.
This was the exact approach taken by Kenya Rugby during the advent of the Safari 7s.
The Safari 7's was known to be Africa's premier 7s tournament with crowds of 60,000 for two days, never before witnessed in Kenya.
One of the main successes of this tournament, is that it would attract socialites,binge drinkers and young single people whom had no regard for the game whatsoever. The average age for people who attended was 21 years old.
As much as it generated more than enough revenue for the union, the end result was that it chased away the rugby purists who then decided to watch the game on t.v to avoid all the party hype.
As the saying goes, the end justifies the means.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby jservuk » Thu, 11 May 2017, 16:30

An article about how Cardiff is struggling to cope with this year's Champions League Final, when it has successfully hosted numerous big Rugby club and international events.

Seems UEFA could learn a thing or two from the rugby folk for staging big events, or Champions League Final is on another level.

http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/foot ... 30826.html

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 11 May 2017, 19:37

Remember most Cardiff Euro finals have featured an English team whose fans would in the main go home rather than stay over. I recall in 2002 a lot of Munster people were doing it in a day with the ferry. Most neutrals from Wales and west England will also drive or train on the day.

Rugby also has the same problems. I had to camp in Edinburgh in 2009 because the city had totally sold out of rooms. Since then, in their infinite wisdom, the Euro blazers have started putting the challenge cup in the same city in the same weekend which only makes the situation worse.

Partly though it is just a function of the competition. A lot more people want to go than any city can comfortably hold so the prices rise accordingly. Knowing the habits of southern European football fans I'd guess most will do it in a day one way or another.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 12 May 2017, 09:00

sk 88 wrote:Remember most Cardiff Euro finals have featured an English team whose fans would in the main go home rather than stay over. I recall in 2002 a lot of Munster people were doing it in a day with the ferry. Most neutrals from Wales and west England will also drive or train on the day.

Rugby also has the same problems. I had to camp in Edinburgh in 2009 because the city had totally sold out of rooms. Since then, in their infinite wisdom, the Euro blazers have started putting the challenge cup in the same city in the same weekend which only makes the situation worse.

Partly though it is just a function of the competition. A lot more people want to go than any city can comfortably hold so the prices rise accordingly. Knowing the habits of southern European football fans I'd guess most will do it in a day one way or another.


There is a voice in my head whispering Ireland 2023 would be the same or worse, when I read this. I was in Cardiff for the Wales-Fiji world cup game and it was 200 Euro for an AirBnB room.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby amz » Fri, 12 May 2017, 09:12

RugbyLiebe wrote: There is a voice in my head whispering Ireland 2023 would be the same or worse, when I read this. I was in Cardiff for the Wales-Fiji world cup game and it was 200 Euro for an AirBnB room.


What? :shock: I was based in London for 1/3 of your amount, 2 persons with breakfats, per day, during RWC 2015. Quite nice hotel albeit not exactly central but with good access. How did you managed to find that ??

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 12 May 2017, 09:31

amz wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote: There is a voice in my head whispering Ireland 2023 would be the same or worse, when I read this. I was in Cardiff for the Wales-Fiji world cup game and it was 200 Euro for an AirBnB room.


What? :shock: I was based in London for 1/3 of your amount, 2 persons with breakfats, per day, during RWC 2015. Quite nice hotel albeit not exactly central but with good access. How did you managed to find that ??


Well I was in Cardiff and not in London ;-)
I reckon prices for the Wales-Fiji game was lower as for other games, as there might have been a big number of local fans to watch their national team. And as stated AirBnB, so I found it over AirBnB. It was the cheapest offer at that time.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby dropkick » Sat, 13 May 2017, 10:27

RugbyLiebe wrote:
sk 88 wrote:Remember most Cardiff Euro finals have featured an English team whose fans would in the main go home rather than stay over. I recall in 2002 a lot of Munster people were doing it in a day with the ferry. Most neutrals from Wales and west England will also drive or train on the day.

Rugby also has the same problems. I had to camp in Edinburgh in 2009 because the city had totally sold out of rooms. Since then, in their infinite wisdom, the Euro blazers have started putting the challenge cup in the same city in the same weekend which only makes the situation worse.

Partly though it is just a function of the competition. A lot more people want to go than any city can comfortably hold so the prices rise accordingly. Knowing the habits of southern European football fans I'd guess most will do it in a day one way or another.


There is a voice in my head whispering Ireland 2023 would be the same or worse, when I read this. I was in Cardiff for the Wales-Fiji world cup game and it was 200 Euro for an AirBnB room.



Dublin hotel prices were the second highest in Europe last year. It's likely that they're still rising. Maybe more hotels are being built, I don't know but if a rugby world cup comes, the hotels will fleece people.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby stuartdm » Sat, 13 May 2017, 12:33

From what I can tell in England (with a bit of help from Wikipedia):

Football:

Premier League 36 000
Championship 20 125 (up from 17 000 last year - presumably due to Newcastle and Aston Villa being relegated)
League 1: 7 000
League 2: 4 600

Rugby Union:

Premiership 14 500 (the games at Twickenham skew things - there were 77 500 for Harlequins v Gloucester) Wasps are getting close on 30 000 for their games.
Championship 1 700

Cricket:

T20: 5 300

Rugby League:

Super League: 8 800

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