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Attendance in sports leagues

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Attendance in sports leagues

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 10 Apr 2017, 13:13

Following the announcement that three Super Rugby franchises will be axed, there was the argument, that sports around the globe are experiencing lower attendance and tv figures.

Lets look at the facts. How are your local PRO (just pro, please) leagues are doing?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby Figaro » Mon, 10 Apr 2017, 13:23

RugbyLiebe wrote:Following the announcement that three Super Rugby franchises will be axed, there was the argument, that sports around the globe are experiencing lower attendance and tv figures.

Lets look at the facts. How are your local PRO (just pro, please) leagues are doing?


I think Pro12 is slightly up this year, or at least it's very likely to be after the PlayOffs and things like Judgement Day derbies are taken into account. The Irish and Welsh have gone up overall (though not across the board - Blues and Ospreys up, Dragons and Scarlets down), Scots and Italians slightly down.

A few different factors affecting attendance - Edinburgh have moved to a smaller stadium, Italians doing as poorly as ever, Blues and Ospreys having good winning streaks at various points, Munster and Ulster doing well, change to the qualification system for the champions cup.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 10 Apr 2017, 13:56

England are up, even controlling for "big games" at larger stadia. This is because well supported Bristol were promoted and poorly supported London Irish relegated. With Bristol going back down and one of Irish, Leeds or Doncaster coming up the average will fall next year.

I can find the median attendance in the Prem as I keep stats on this but not at the tip of fingers at the moment.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 10 Apr 2017, 14:21

To early to tell for us as many of our winter sports are just starting. Twenty 20 cricket league in summer just seems to get bigger though. Soccer is falling off again.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 10 Apr 2017, 14:30

Germany:
soccer:
1. Bundesliga 2015/16 average attendance 43.254 (up from 41022) and it is more a game of capacity (all clubs are very close to outselling nearly every game apart from Berlin)
2. Bundesliga 2015/16 attendance 19.164 (up from 17.674) will be even bigger this season as two big teams got relegated from 1. Bundesliga
ice-hockey DEL: 2015/16 regular season 6.647 (up from 6.419)
Handball: 1. Bundesliga 4.935 (up from 4.585)
Basketball: BBL 4.408 (down from 4431) here is a "downward trend" but those 23 visitors came back this season to make it to 4451 for 16/17 ;-)

So no downward movement in german sports attendance.
Broadcasting rights are
soccer = paytv = SKY
ice-hockey= Telekom live stream + one game per week free-to-air (so a little less than every other gameday)
handball = paytv = SKY + 12 games free-to-air ARD+ZDF (channels like BBC) + FTA sport1
basketball = Telekom live stream + fta Sport1
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby NaBUru38 » Mon, 10 Apr 2017, 14:58

RugbyLiebe wrote:Germany soccer:

1. Bundesliga 2015/16 average attendance 43.254 (up from 41022) and it is more a game of capacity (all clubs are very close to outselling nearly every game apart from Berlin)

2. Bundesliga 2015/16 attendance 19.164 (up from 17.674) will be even bigger this season as two big teams got relegated from 1. Bundesliga

Darmstadt and Ingolstadt (1 BL) are impressive attendances given their small population. Stuttgart and Hannover (2 BL) have much bigger crowds of course.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby CraigChalmers » Mon, 10 Apr 2017, 17:04

Figaro wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:Following the announcement that three Super Rugby franchises will be axed, there was the argument, that sports around the globe are experiencing lower attendance and tv figures.

Lets look at the facts. How are your local PRO (just pro, please) leagues are doing?


I think Pro12 is slightly up this year, or at least it's very likely to be after the PlayOffs and things like Judgement Day derbies are taken into account. The Irish and Welsh have gone up overall (though not across the board - Blues and Ospreys up, Dragons and Scarlets down), Scots and Italians slightly down.

A few different factors affecting attendance - Edinburgh have moved to a smaller stadium, Italians doing as poorly as ever, Blues and Ospreys having good winning streaks at various points, Munster and Ulster doing well, change to the qualification system for the champions cup.


I think Glasgow are perhaps down slightly this season if you look at plain numbers; however that's a slightly false picture as we played 3 games away from Scotstoun last season, all of which pulled in more than our actual capacity was last term.

There were an extra 500 seats added this season, and I think every game to date has been pretty much sold out (with 2 to go, including our derby).


As for other sports here, Scottish Premiership football will be up drastically (mainly because Dundee Utd, who have a capacity of 14,000, were replaced by Rangers with an average in the high 40,000's and have a far bigger away support). Consequently, the 1st division is also down massively, whilst divisions 3 and 4 barely draw a crowd anyway.

Only really have anecdotal evidence, but both Ice Hockey and Basketball also seem to be thriving in Glasgow (former looking to build a new arena, the latter benefiting from one built for the Commonwealth Games), whilst a new Netball team has just been formed who got a pretty impressive crowd 1st time out. Only sport who seem to be struggling here is football, and even that is masked for now by the return of Rangers.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby BertSolomon » Mon, 10 Apr 2017, 20:32

Here is a fairly comprehensive list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... ts_leagues

One thing I find quite interesting is how countries whose best players are based abroad still get very good crowds in their domestic leagues. For example:
Argentine Primera División - average attendance 21,374
Eredivisie Netherlands - average attendance 19,412

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby Coloradoan » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 06:06

From the other thread..

BertSolomon wrote:I checked the NFL and their attendances were up last season, and have fluctuated between 67,000 and 69,000 over the past 10 years. Really bad attendances.


Not sure about NFL attendances last year, but TV audiences were down significantly. IIRC down something like 10%. It has caused major concern for the league.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby iul » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 06:26

Coloradoan wrote:From the other thread..

BertSolomon wrote:I checked the NFL and their attendances were up last season, and have fluctuated between 67,000 and 69,000 over the past 10 years. Really bad attendances.


Not sure about NFL attendances last year, but TV audiences were down significantly. IIRC down something like 10%. It has caused major concern for the league.

Maybe all the anthem boycotting by all sort of degenerates has put some people off

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 06:56

BertSolomon wrote:Here is a fairly comprehensive list:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_a ... ts_leagues


It is a great overview. Problem with this list is that, you can't compare directly if the attendances are down or up. The ARU stated that professional sports leagues all over the world have a shrinking attendance. I doubt this is the case. Hence this thread ;-)
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby Samfin » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 07:17

What attendances to German rugby teams get?
Also, what attendances would you anticipate for a German Pro 12 team?

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 07:27

Samfin wrote:What attendances to German rugby teams get?
Also, what attendances would you anticipate for a German Pro 12 team?


Irrelevant attendances. 400, 500 at best. Sometimes Derbies draw around 1000. It is a fully amateur competition with maybe some players "employed" as coaches or by the army.

Regarding the Pro12, I have no idea. It depends on how it is marketed. And Rugby has never been really got at marketing itself to be honest. The national team draws about 4000 in average so that should be the measure number for a pro12 team.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby Figaro » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 08:44

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Samfin wrote:What attendances to German rugby teams get?
Also, what attendances would you anticipate for a German Pro 12 team?


Irrelevant attendances. 400, 500 at best. Sometimes Derbies draw around 1000. It is a fully amateur competition with maybe some players "employed" as coaches or by the army.

Regarding the Pro12, I have no idea. It depends on how it is marketed. And Rugby has never been really got at marketing itself to be honest. The national team draws about 4000 in average so that should be the measure number for a pro12 team.


That doesn't follow - there isn't a league in Rugby where the average attendance of any of the teams comes close that of the national sides. Following on from that you'd expect not much more than 1,000 or so for a German Pro12 team (which would actually put it not too much behind Zebre).

Though as you rightly point out, it's impossible to say as it depends so much on how it's marketed.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 09:54

Figaro wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
Samfin wrote:What attendances to German rugby teams get?
Also, what attendances would you anticipate for a German Pro 12 team?


Irrelevant attendances. 400, 500 at best. Sometimes Derbies draw around 1000. It is a fully amateur competition with maybe some players "employed" as coaches or by the army.

Regarding the Pro12, I have no idea. It depends on how it is marketed. And Rugby has never been really got at marketing itself to be honest. The national team draws about 4000 in average so that should be the measure number for a pro12 team.


That doesn't follow - there isn't a league in Rugby where the average attendance of any of the teams comes close that of the national sides. Following on from that you'd expect not much more than 1,000 or so for a German Pro12 team (which would actually put it not too much behind Zebre).

Though as you rightly point out, it's impossible to say as it depends so much on how it's marketed.


I don't think you can really compare about it. Rugby is still virtually unknown in Germany. Hell, there was no way to watch any rugby with German commentators in a legal way outside of the World Cup anywhere just until LAST (!) year and maybe one or two streams the year before. Not even the 6N where broadcasted anywhere. That's how much rugby in Germany was a diaspora.

The tier1 community has totally forgotten about the 4th biggest economy in the world and we simply can't say what happens. This shows exactly that the Rugby community has surprisingly next to no business sense. But some Germans are awaking with the possibilities.
4k is not a figure a national team in Germany should be proud of. But we are coming from 2k not that long ago.
But 4k is a number a pro-team in Germany should be measured upon atm. And that would be a tough one, as we are at least one generation behind in everything. It is tough to bring the kids in, if the parents think, that "rugby is the sport with the helmets" (I just heard this again during a game of us).
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby jonny24 » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 12:42

CFL attendance is trending down, 24,691 last year, down from 27,132 in 2010.

Before that the previous low was 21,292, in 1997. Which was a huge drop from its peak in 1978, of 31,870.
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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby victorsra » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 14:42

There are two other things always to consider about attendances: the % of occupation and the number of home matches for each team. It would be interestng to have these numbers in the table.

About pro sports in Brazil, even if our football has sadly poor attendances and does not draw the attendances it used to draw before 90s-2000s players exodus to Europe, the difference to other sports is brutal.

Serie A (Football 1st division): 15.239 (best average was 32.471, from Palmeiras, and the worst average 3.353, from América Mineiro)

Serie B (2nd div): 5.175

Serie C (3rd div): 4.058

Superliga de Vôlei (Volleyball): 1.291

NBB (Basketball): 849 (really ridiculous considering our proud basketball history)

Superliga Nacional (American Football): 656

Liga Handebol (handball) and Liga Futsal (Futsal) I coudn't find.

Super 8 (rugby): we don't even use stands...
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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 16:22

So MLS likes to talk about how their live attendance is higher than the NBA...which is true, their television audience is shit. But also, you won't see any 50,000 purpose built soccer stadiums in the US for easily another 30 years, they'll stay at about 25k. The Sounders do get some huge crowds at the Seahawks facility though.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby jservuk » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 19:00

TheStroBro wrote:So MLS likes to talk about how their live attendance is higher than the NBA...which is true, their television audience is shit. But also, you won't see any 50,000 purpose built soccer stadiums in the US for easily another 30 years, they'll stay at about 25k. The Sounders do get some huge crowds at the Seahawks facility though.


What does say about what Rugby can expect of attendances in US for a club league?

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby BertSolomon » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 19:36

TheStroBro wrote:So MLS likes to talk about how their live attendance is higher than the NBA...which is true, their television audience is shit. But also, you won't see any 50,000 purpose built soccer stadiums in the US for easily another 30 years, they'll stay at about 25k. The Sounders do get some huge crowds at the Seahawks facility though.


They don't do badly though. Now about 6th or 7th best supported football league in the world. But it's taken them over 20 years - a lesson there for SANZAAR that it takes time for a team to build a following...

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby 4N » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 20:03

BertSolomon wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:So MLS likes to talk about how their live attendance is higher than the NBA...which is true, their television audience is shit. But also, you won't see any 50,000 purpose built soccer stadiums in the US for easily another 30 years, they'll stay at about 25k. The Sounders do get some huge crowds at the Seahawks facility though.


They don't do badly though. Now about 6th or 7th best supported football league in the world. But it's taken them over 20 years - a lesson there for SANZAAR that it takes time for a team to build a following...


Maybe. Expansion Atlanta United are averaging a league-leading 50,000 attendance through two home fixtures. And they're at a makeshift stadium for now.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby Working Class Rugger » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 22:45

BertSolomon wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:So MLS likes to talk about how their live attendance is higher than the NBA...which is true, their television audience is shit. But also, you won't see any 50,000 purpose built soccer stadiums in the US for easily another 30 years, they'll stay at about 25k. The Sounders do get some huge crowds at the Seahawks facility though.


They don't do badly though. Now about 6th or 7th best supported football league in the world. But it's taken them over 20 years - a lesson there for SANZAAR that it takes time for a team to build a following...


In terms of support at games. But people watching at home. Not so great. Their Championship games only drew 1.4m last year. While it was never realistic for it to draw Super Bowl numbers considering how many people are either active players or supporters of the game you'd think they'd manage more.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 23:02

I've played Soccer...and I don't find it an easy watch at the house.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby Coloradoan » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 23:20

The TV problem is a problem of perceived (real?) lack of quality in the matches. Why watch that when you can watch a bunch of EPL or La Liga matches in a given weekend here on TV? They do well with attendances because they have good atmospheres in the stadium, which means the quality on the pitch doesn't matter as much.

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Re: Attendance in sports leagues

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 12 Apr 2017, 01:31

Coloradoan wrote:The TV problem is a problem of perceived (real?) lack of quality in the matches. Why watch that when you can watch a bunch of EPL or La Liga matches in a given weekend here on TV? They do well with attendances because they have good atmospheres in the stadium, which means the quality on the pitch doesn't matter as much.


It's an argument I have quite regularly with a number of people regarding our local league. In the 12 or so years its been in place it has more or less remained stagnant in regards to crowds and viewing. All this despite Soccer being the most played sport in the country.

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