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USA-Canada U20 Series

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USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby Coloradoan » Wed, 14 Jun 2017, 01:09

Two match series to determine who goes to the JWRT. First match is being streamed live right now here: https://www.facebook.com/RugbyCanada/

Second match will be on Saturday.

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 14 Jun 2017, 01:30

We're playing poorly. Canada strong on the scrum, Canada has solid ball skills at the flank for when the ball is coming out.

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby Coloradoan » Wed, 14 Jun 2017, 01:54

Canada 19-12 at the half. Good crowd out there. Canada dominant in the scrums. USA seemed to lift their game in the last 10 minutes of the half.

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby Coloradoan » Wed, 14 Jun 2017, 02:47

Wow. Totally embarrassed in the 2nd half. I realize our U20 program is under-resourced, but with the amount of talent in that age bracket, this type of result should not be happening. Maybe overreacting but Stephenson has never impressed as a coach. And when he doesn't select ultra-talented players like Naima Fualaau because they "don't fit the gameplan", you have to wonder if the problem is him.

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby Suiram » Wed, 14 Jun 2017, 02:49

Didn't he say they focused on the set pieces for this game?

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby 4N » Wed, 14 Jun 2017, 02:50

Some of the players picked raised some eyebrows. The front row was obviously a complete mess. It's like nothing is learned year after year. The US had a #8 then a hooker playing tighthead for most of the match.

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 14 Jun 2017, 05:20

Coloradoan wrote:Wow. Totally embarrassed in the 2nd half. I realize our U20 program is under-resourced, but with the amount of talent in that age bracket, this type of result should not be happening. Maybe overreacting but Stephenson has never impressed as a coach. And when he doesn't select ultra-talented players like Naima Fualaau because they "don't fit the gameplan", you have to wonder if the problem is him.

He's not even getting paid. Also, a private donor had to throw down the 40k to fund this trip.

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby fullbackace » Wed, 14 Jun 2017, 06:34

Coloradoan wrote:Wow. Totally embarrassed in the 2nd half. I realize our U20 program is under-resourced, but with the amount of talent in that age bracket, this type of result should not be happening. Maybe overreacting but Stephenson has never impressed as a coach. And when he doesn't select ultra-talented players like Naima Fualaau because they "don't fit the gameplan", you have to wonder if the problem is him.

Mate with the level of coaching some of those guys get I wouldn't pay much attention to numbers. The coaching over here is a loose term.
Don't Pray For Easy lives, Pray for enough Beer!

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby Coloradoan » Wed, 14 Jun 2017, 17:07

TheStroBro wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:Wow. Totally embarrassed in the 2nd half. I realize our U20 program is under-resourced, but with the amount of talent in that age bracket, this type of result should not be happening. Maybe overreacting but Stephenson has never impressed as a coach. And when he doesn't select ultra-talented players like Naima Fualaau because they "don't fit the gameplan", you have to wonder if the problem is him.

He's not even getting paid. Also, a private donor had to throw down the 40k to fund this trip.


Right. Although I'd think being the HC of the U20s is a pretty good recruiting tool for a college coach. I've said this for awhile but I think we need to a real think about the U20 program, its value and how it can be improved.

Here is what the U20 team should be:

-part of a defined pathway to the Eagles
-the best U20 US-eligible players, or perhaps the most likely to go on to become senior Eagles
-a team that plays the same style and patterns as the senior test side
-a development team focused on producing future senior Eagles

So my questions: is it those things? I'd say no. Stephenson's interview with the Red, White and Black Eye podcast made it clear. Again, I hate to harp on one selection, but it's the obvious one (who knows about the others?). Naima Fualaau isn't one of the 28 best U20 rugby players in this country? Not one of the most likely in his position(s) to become a 15s Eagle? No, he didn't fit Stephenson's game plan. That's nonsense.

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 14 Jun 2017, 18:15

For me it's pretty simple. Mitchell talks a lot about how he's left a sustainable model everywhere he's coached. So he's a systems guy. The most successful coaches adapt their system around talent but this a make or break thing.

The reason why NZ is so successful is because it has a system's based approach for Rugby all the way down to Minis. I'm not saying we need to be like that down to community Rugby. We shouldn't. But our Age Grade representative sides need to be running the same system derived from the Head Coach and then we need an established system so that we can just push players through it so if they're HSAA, they know the style at the MJAA, AAs and then the Eagles etc.

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby Coloradoan » Wed, 14 Jun 2017, 19:35

TheStroBro wrote:For me it's pretty simple. Mitchell talks a lot about how he's left a sustainable model everywhere he's coached. So he's a systems guy. The most successful coaches adapt their system around talent but this a make or break thing.

The reason why NZ is so successful is because it has a system's based approach for Rugby all the way down to Minis. I'm not saying we need to be like that down to community Rugby. We shouldn't. But our Age Grade representative sides need to be running the same system derived from the Head Coach and then we need an established system so that we can just push players through it so if they're HSAA, they know the style at the MJAA, AAs and then the Eagles etc.


Agreed completely. Yet another reason to ensure our next Eagle HC is based in the US.

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby Suiram » Wed, 14 Jun 2017, 22:31

I think the U20s need to be more of a thing with more of a budget or some way to play together more.

In my dream world, college rugby would flatten out more in that 15-20 schools would be at Cal's depth, if not totally competitive with them. If these programs had that depth, their freshman / sophmore recruits would likely not be getting game time and could participate in some ongoing team activities for U20s. I realize this goes a bit against Coloradoan's idea about making sure the absolute best are on the team (Despite quite a few issues, some great players are on this current team).

So ideal world a collection of top college freshman/sophmores and high schoolers are training and playing say 3 to 4 exhibitions against maybe good college teams or similar. lets say you are aiming for the players ranked 10-40 in the country at that age group. Assuming the top 10 are unavailable as they are starting for their teams already. Then those that become available for a summer tour / JWRT / whatever fit into a team that has systems in place and some structure for playing together.

Otherwise the only possibility seems to require more professional players and more guys under 20 going into academies. You could note that although the US team had a decent number of guys with men's caps or at least experience with the U-23 tour. The Canadians had more guys actually in pro environments at academies.

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby cardiffrcm » Thu, 15 Jun 2017, 07:55

The dilemma for US is College Rugby.

Ideally the USAR should be offering financial incentives (if it had money) to the best High School players and transfer students to attend a selected number of Colleges. These could even combine to produce regional teams at U20 or U23 level.

However, College Rugby is also one of the leading components in the growth of Rugby in the US. Therefore, the above action would not only marginalise some good programs but also remove the incentive for others to initiate new programmes.

It may well be that at this moment both, geography and established self interest will prevent the US being competitive at U20 level.

However, irrational selections and stupid tactics aren't helping.

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby grande » Thu, 15 Jun 2017, 19:09

Highlights from Rugby Canada: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmwBOFi1cec

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby rusty_lock » Thu, 15 Jun 2017, 20:03

Canada staying with the same line up that worked so well in Game 1

Canada’s Men’s U20 Roster vs. USA (Name, club, hometown):

1. Liam Murray (Langley) Langley, BC

2. Dewald Kotze (UBCOB Ravens) Edmonton, AB

3. Cole Keith (James Bay AA) Sussex, NB

4. Liam Doll (UBC Thunderbirds) North Vancouver, BC

5. Matt Beukeboom (Section Paloise) Lindsay, ON

6. Lachlan Currie (Bond University) Gold Coast, Australia

7. James O’Neill (UVic Vikes) Cochrane, AB

8. Jake Thiel (Abbotsford RFC) Abbotsford, BC

9. Fraser Hurst (UBC Thunderbirds) Vancouver, BC

10. Will Kelly (Brantford Harlequins) Ancaster, ON

11. Elias Ergas (UBC Thunderbirds) Vancouver, BC

12. Josh Thiel (Bishop Burton College) Abbotsford, BC

13. George Barton, captain (Clermont) Duncan, BC

14. Anton Ngongo (Castaway Wanderers) Victoria, BC

15. Aidan McMullan (Sainte-Anne-de-Bellevue RFC), Montreal, QC

16. Steven Ng (Capilano RFC) Ottawa, ON

17. Connor Sampson (UBC Thunderbirds) Vancouver, BC

18. Nicholas Frost (UBC Thunderbirds) Vancouver, BC

19. Jamie McNaughton Carleton Place, ON

20. Jack McRogers (Aurora Barbarians) Newmarket, ON

21. William McDougall-Percillier (Cowichan Piggies) Mill Bay, Victoria

22. Brennig Prevost (UVic Vikes) Victoria, BC

23. Cole Davis (Canberra Royals) Calgary, AB

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 17 Jun 2017, 19:23

US Playing a lot better today, but we're just not there.

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby Coloradoan » Sat, 17 Jun 2017, 19:54

Nice comeback win by the USA youngsters. Not enough to overcome the big loss in game 1 though. Good luck to Canada in the JWRT. Hope you guys win as we really both should be playing in either the JWRT or JWC every year.

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby Suiram » Sat, 17 Jun 2017, 20:05

Very happy to see the US win today even if it was still not the most inspired play. Never really expected to make up a 30+ point deficit, but playing for the win gives them valuable experience and proves their capability.

Cynically, feel like something closer to this line up may have been better on Tuesday.

Also the backs still dont look comfortable implementing what looks like the more dynamic attacking structure the Eagles use. Really need more time with it and probably some additional coaches that can train them more directly.

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby Coloradoan » Sat, 17 Jun 2017, 20:13

Suiram wrote:Very happy to see the US win today even if it was still not the most inspired play. Never really expected to make up a 30+ point deficit, but playing for the win gives them valuable experience and proves their capability.

Cynically, feel like something closer to this line up may have been better on Tuesday.

Also the backs still dont look comfortable implementing what looks like the more dynamic attacking structure the Eagles use. Really need more time with it and probably some additional coaches that can train them more directly.


Everyone on that team needs more time in that system. It's not just the backs who need to be able to play in that structure, and forwards get used to link a lot in it. Would be great if they could still tour somewhere but I doubt the money is there for that. To me, the biggest problem was still the scrum. It was on rollerskates. What can we do to get better scrummagers? I have some hope for Telea, still, as he only switched to prop from 8 less than a year ago.

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 17 Jun 2017, 20:26

At the U20 level I have no idea. At the National team level is recruit some Offensive Guards and put them into an academy system.

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby Suiram » Sat, 17 Jun 2017, 20:38

Its a fair question whether that very specific body type gets drawn away to other sports (but I think that conversation happens every 6 mo -1 year). But on their own we seem to have plenty of good quality props. It just never seems to all fit together for any of our national sides.

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby Neptune » Sun, 18 Jun 2017, 09:29

Why do Canada and the U.S play a separate u-20? I mean, isn't the whole world playing u -20 in Georgia? Are they isolating themselves from the rest? Can I please get an explanation from a Canadian or an American on this issue, or anyone who knows what is going on for that matter. Thankyou

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby sammo » Sun, 18 Jun 2017, 09:54

Neptune wrote:Why do Canada and the U.S play a separate u-20? I mean, isn't the whole world playing u -20 in Georgia? Are they isolating themselves from the rest? Can I please get an explanation from a Canadian or an American on this issue, or anyone who knows what is going on for that matter. Thankyou


They were playing to qualify for this; https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Wo ... _20_Trophy

Which is the 2nd tier world competition

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby Neptune » Sun, 18 Jun 2017, 10:03

sammo wrote:
Neptune wrote:Why do Canada and the U.S play a separate u-20? I mean, isn't the whole world playing u -20 in Georgia? Are they isolating themselves from the rest? Can I please get an explanation from a Canadian or an American on this issue, or anyone who knows what is going on for that matter. Thankyou


They were playing to qualify for this; https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Wo ... _20_Trophy

Which is the 2nd tier world competition


oooh, thanks a bunch Sammo, now I understand. :) All the best to the kiddoz playing in Uruguay and all the teams. :)

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Re: USA-Canada U20 Series

Postby Neptune » Sun, 18 Jun 2017, 10:35

So basically it was a home and away game with the aggregate winner going for the JWRT? Lovely method. I wonder why in Africa we are only given one- off games both in the U-20 plus the Gold Cup. WR should really look into this.

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