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Samoa Rugby

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby iul » Sat, 03 Oct 2015, 18:32

They'll give more spots to the Oceania zone instead of having Spain, Portugal and South Korea.

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby julio » Sat, 03 Oct 2015, 18:38

Why?

On the performances at this RWC only Fiji deserve to be competing at the top level from Oceania. Maybe having the Manu miss out on a World Cup for once will be the catalyst for actual, tangible, positive change internally. With the Olympics giving rugby the springboard to an even wider audience next year, Samoa RFU will soon find themselves left behind as a professional organisation as the rest of the world put resources and minds into the game.

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby Rowan » Sat, 03 Oct 2015, 19:57

I think all the drama and disharmony finally caught up with the Samoan team at this World Cup, and heads really ought to roll at admin level - starting with the PM's (if that's even possible) :roll:
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby African Monkey » Sat, 03 Oct 2015, 21:21

Well that was awful. Too old, too slow and poorly coached. The game was lost as soon as we decided that we'd go into the game with no proper no.7 against a much quicker side. A tournament to forget that's for sure.

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 04 Oct 2015, 01:57

With Japan having secured a top 3 finish it's more than likely Asia will still get an automatic qualifying slot for 2019, meaning the regional qualification slots will more than likely remain the same as they were for this World Cup.

Americas - 2
Oceania - 1
Africa - 1
Europe - 2
Repechage - 1
Asia - 1

If Tonga finish fourth that means all three Island teams will be battling it out for 1.5 slots. At least one of Fiji, Samoa and Tonga is going to miss out on qualification for 2019. I think the only way Oceania gets 2 automatic places is if World Rugby believes Georgia's third place qualification is deemed enough representation for the region, but given Europe is a far more valued region it's difficult for me to see that happening. World Rugby would be keen to have one of Spain, Portugal, Russia or Germany ahead of the island nations.

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby Natal » Sun, 04 Oct 2015, 03:47

thatrugbyguy wrote:With Japan having secured a top 3 finish it's more than likely Asia will still get an automatic qualifying slot for 2019, meaning the regional qualification slots will more than likely remain the same as they were for this World Cup.

Americas - 2
Oceania - 1
Africa - 1
Europe - 2
Repechage - 1
Asia - 1

If Tonga finish fourth that means all three Island teams will be battling it out for 1.5 slots. At least one of Fiji, Samoa and Tonga is going to miss out on qualification for 2019. I think the only way Oceania gets 2 automatic places is if World Rugby believes Georgia's third place qualification is deemed enough representation for the region, but given Europe is a far more valued region it's difficult for me to see that happening. World Rugby would be keen to have one of Spain, Portugal, Russia or Germany ahead of the island nations.


Wouldn't they been more keen to have the strongest 20 teams in the world at the tournament? I have a feeling that they might just increase the quota for the Pacific and take Asia's automatic place away.

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 04 Oct 2015, 04:18

2019 organisers are apparently pushing World Rugby hard for Asia to retain it's automatic qualifier. There's two side to this argument, one is obviously competitiveness, is Hong Kong or Korea going to be able to get to a decent enough standard in 4 years time to at least contain the score? Maybe if World Rugby injects money specifically into those two nations over the next 4 years one will emerge being able to do a decent enough job. But, you are right, it will be at the expense of a significantly better team. The other side of the argument it's is the first World Cup in Asia and for it to be truly a World Cup for the entire continent there needs to be more than one representative at the tournament, irrespective of competitiveness. The only way I can foresee Asia retaining auto qualifying and Oceania being given a second automatic slot is if Canada somehow finishes third in their pool, which is still mathematically possible. You could then take one of the Americas slots and give it to Oceania because realistically the USA is going to be the Americas qualifier, baring any Uruguay upset.

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby Rowan » Sun, 04 Oct 2015, 08:06

No Asian team but Japan has any experience against tier 1 opposition whatsoever, and the only experience they have against tier 2 teams is against Japan itself. So, investment, yes, but more crucially they need to get involved in a tier 2 competiton - and fast. I've suggested the Pacific Challenge Cup as entry point (ie for HK & Korea), with possible graduation to the PNC within a few years or so. But there's no way they're going to get them up to speed in time for the 2019 tournament. I actually had 2023 and the possibility of an expanded format in mind. I've also suggested integrating Asia & Oceania (esp. with the Americas 6N looming) and creating a five or six team top division.
If they're good enough to play at World Cups, then why not in between?

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby Petelo » Sun, 04 Oct 2015, 08:48

This about sums it all up.
Image

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby Petelo » Sun, 04 Oct 2015, 09:42

Rumours off the coconut wireless that there was a major rift between Maurie Faasavalu, Alafoti and the Tuilagi brothers which is a reason why Maurie and Alafoti are not playing. Betham took Tuilagi sides.

But those are unconfirmed at the moment.

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby sk 88 » Sun, 04 Oct 2015, 18:49

I went to the match. Was surprised by how poor Samoa were. Not up for it at all. No crunching tackles or smash carries.

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby julio » Sun, 04 Oct 2015, 19:02

Petelo wrote:Rumours off the coconut wireless that there was a major rift between Maurie Faasavalu, Alafoti and the Tuilagi brothers which is a reason why Maurie and Alafoti are not playing. Betham took Tuilagi sides.

But those are unconfirmed at the moment.


Sad if true, but not surprising in the least.

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby julio » Sun, 04 Oct 2015, 20:19

thatrugbyguy wrote:2019 organisers are apparently pushing World Rugby hard for Asia to retain it's automatic qualifier. There's two side to this argument, one is obviously competitiveness, is Hong Kong or Korea going to be able to get to a decent enough standard in 4 years time to at least contain the score? Maybe if World Rugby injects money specifically into those two nations over the next 4 years one will emerge being able to do a decent enough job. But, you are right, it will be at the expense of a significantly better team. The other side of the argument it's is the first World Cup in Asia and for it to be truly a World Cup for the entire continent there needs to be more than one representative at the tournament, irrespective of competitiveness. The only way I can foresee Asia retaining auto qualifying and Oceania being given a second automatic slot is if Canada somehow finishes third in their pool, which is still mathematically possible. You could then take one of the Americas slots and give it to Oceania because realistically the USA is going to be the Americas qualifier, baring any Uruguay upset.


Japan are automatically guaranteed RWC2019 entry being the hosts, but are you saying Asia are trying to keep another qualification spot open for one of these other Asian 5 Nations sides?

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby olivier » Sun, 04 Oct 2015, 20:30

iul wrote:They'll give more spots to the Oceania zone instead of having Spain, Portugal and South Korea.

Sure, Oceania will have three spots.

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby julio » Sun, 04 Oct 2015, 21:16

olivier wrote:
iul wrote:They'll give more spots to the Oceania zone instead of having Spain, Portugal and South Korea.

Sure, Oceania will have three spots.


Samoa, Tonga and Fiji will certainly be hoping for this.

Likely 2019 qualifier positions:

Americas
1x Automatic qualification: Argentina
2x Regional qualifications: most likely USA + Canada

Asia
2x Automatic qualification: Japan (as hosts) + the second qualification is under discussion.
1x Regional qualification: most likely Hong Kong or Korea

Africa
1x Automatic qualification: South Africa
1x Regional qualification: most likely Namibia

Europe
6x Automatic qualification: England, France, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Georgia (3rd place in 2015 pool)
2x Regional qualifications: most likely Italy + Romania

Oceania
2x Automatic qualification: Australia, New Zealand
1x Regional qualifications: one of Fiji, Tonga or Samoa

Repechage
1x Repechage qualification: contested between 1x Africa (most likely Zimbabwe), 1x America (most likely Uruguay again), 1x Asia (this could change to an Oceania team), 1x Europe (most likely Russia).

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby Petelo » Sun, 04 Oct 2015, 21:41

It is fair to say the nation is in mourning
Image

I hope there is a mass clean-out after this world cup is over. Get a proper overseas coach in there and especially a forwards coach. Fiji and Japan's forwards have benefited enormously from excellent coaching. Get rid of those old players who have served the team well in the past but are clearly no longer up to it at international level. Tuilagi was over the hill years ago. They need to start from scratch and DEVELOP proper frontrow forwards, if that is ever possible in a tier2 country.

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby julio » Sun, 04 Oct 2015, 22:12

If only Samoa had played it smart when Sir Michael Fay offered financial support all those years ago. Instead of treating him like a cash cow and milking him dry, they could have developed into a special professional organisation that developed a rich and fertile talent pool more than enough to rival any on the pitch, as well as having some commercial muscle off the field, all without the need for IRB handouts and pathetic twitter-rants.

Looking at all the wasted opportunities to build something truly special and all years aimlessly passing by, Samoa just follow the same worn path hoping for some magic fairy to make it all better.

Argentina are my absolute heroes in this regard - Samoa have beaten them on 3 out of 4 occasions since the 1991 RWC where they first met and for long periods were considered a lesser rugby nation — but look how they have rolled up their sleeves and developed themselves almost entirely from within, creating a real position of strength internationally, and enough to force the hands of World Rugby and SANZAR to include them at the top table in the Rugby Championship and Super Rugby.

If only Samoa had the courage to do the same.

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 04 Oct 2015, 23:37

julio wrote:Japan are automatically guaranteed RWC2019 entry being the hosts, but are you saying Asia are trying to keep another qualification spot open for one of these other Asian 5 Nations sides?


Yep, they want 2 Asian sides for 2019.

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby Petelo » Mon, 05 Oct 2015, 03:41

If they are wanting a 2nd Asian qualifier, surely they should've done something about it back when Japan were awarded hosting rights. 4 years is a really short time to get Korea or HK up to even Namibia's standards.

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby Petelo » Mon, 05 Oct 2015, 07:58

One thing I detest about samoan fans is that there are always a bunch of them censoring those who criticise players. It is like it is a cardinal sin if you dare criticise the players. The samoan forums are a laugh in the aftermath of the loss. There are huge arguments between those who dare not hear a negative word said about the players and those (like me) who are criticising the dumb brain dead players who earned themselves yellow cards and the wrong selections of the coach. People are now challenging each other to fights over these arguments. Really dumb.

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby julio » Mon, 05 Oct 2015, 08:23

Petelo wrote:One thing I detest about samoan fans is that there are always a bunch of them censoring those who criticise players. It is like it is a cardinal sin if you dare criticise the players. The samoan forums are a laugh in the aftermath of the loss. There are huge arguments between those who dare not hear a negative word said about the players and those (like me) who are criticising the dumb brain dead players who earned themselves yellow cards and the wrong selections of the coach. People are now challenging each other to fights over these arguments. Really dumb.


I totally agree. Unfortunately it shows the lack of maturity that is all too common in Samoan fans. Many cannot see the difference between constructive criticism and outright abuse (which to be fair a lot of the comments are, but again this is down to a lack of understanding of the game—another topic altogether!), this further clouds their judgment which is why they just resort to childish mud-slinging and 'hey, that's my cousin's-aunty's-son don't you dare speak badly of them or I'll give you a hiding!!' responses.

PS. On another note, I know I have been equally hopeful as well as critical of this Samoan team's performances, but big ups to Japan for their efforts in dismantling this team, brick-by-brick. What a show of rugby intelligence and complete dedication to the cause. Nothing but admiration for them in this World Cup and the way they have approached the game. If anything I hope the Manu can get one over Scotland and send Japan into their first ever quarter-final.

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby Petelo » Mon, 05 Oct 2015, 10:28

Japan deserved it. From a purely neutral perspective, Japan were a joy to watch. Samoa, on the other hand, besides from Paul Perez, were an embarrassment. I've been trying to explain to some utter asshats over the past 24 hours that I've been "debating/arguing" with on some of the samoan forums that it isn't so much that they lost, but what really gets me is the WAY they lost. We lost to South Africa in 2011, but I was really proud of the way the team played. They gave it everything and they were technically not too bad in the set pieces. Against Japan, our scrum was demolished, the ill discipline was criminal for such an important match, it is almost like they left their brains in the changing room, and the technical skills of our players (most of whom are professional players) was embarrassing.

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby julio » Mon, 05 Oct 2015, 10:55

Tell me about it. Being an apologist for that performance does nothing to help foster improvement in the team - it just encourages more of the same blinkered, predictable thinking which has delivered them to this point in the first place.

FWIW the discipline issues that have plagued this side highlight a clear unrest behind the scenes and a lack of trust in the systems and leadership put in place to cope with pressure situations during games. As an example: NZ have for years, employed mental skills techniques to help deal with such issues (Just Google "Gilbert Enoka rugby" for plenty of background info) and I know for a fact that NZ players themselves do a lot of internal research on the subject and present their findings back to the group to understand and learn together. That sort of thinking and development does not take a million trillion zillion dollars of World Rugby's money to put in place — it requires dedicated people (or just 1 in the case of NZ) to take ownership of an important cog in the machine in order to help drive the standards and culture upwards.

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Mon, 05 Oct 2015, 12:10

It was just last week that some prominent Samoan rugby pundits were bemoaning having to play in the PNC because Canada, Japan and USA were "beneath them". I for one am very happy with these results, maybe the PI teams will sort themselves out now.

The sad part is the PNC is a good competition but it's been clear to me that we can't rely on the PIs to ever commit to the competition. Canada and the US will begin to throw their lot in with the American 6N as a result and Japan doesn't need to play in the PNC. The only losers in this situation are going to be the PIs.

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Re: Samoa Rugby

Postby julio » Mon, 05 Oct 2015, 13:18

Canadian_Rugger wrote:It was just last week that some prominent Samoan rugby pundits were bemoaning having to play in the PNC because Canada, Japan and USA were "beneath them". I for one am very happy with these results, maybe the PI teams will sort themselves out now.

The sad part is the PNC is a good competition but it's been clear to me that we can't rely on the PIs to ever commit to the competition. Canada and the US will begin to throw their lot in with the American 6N as a result and Japan doesn't need to play in the PNC. The only losers in this situation are going to be the PIs.


Hi CR, I have to agree with you - I think there was a sense of entitlement and expectation of always being at RWC which has meant Samoa have dropped the ball here. I can see how the constant complaining about not being included in Super Rugby or the Rugby Championship has potentially frayed relationships with other PNC sides who are actually trying to develop structures from within, along with strategic partnerships (e.g. USA Rugby and the England RFU) to make themselves more attractive, stable organisations down the line.

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