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Americas Rugby

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby SallesNeto_BR » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 04:20

Portuguese and Spanish share 85% of vocabulary. It doesn't mean they are always mutually intelligible -- it's sometimes hard, specially for the Hispanohablantes, because Portuguese is richer in terms of phonems. But the famous "Portuñol" use to do the trick between us.

Besides that, lots of South Americans have good skills speaking both languages, specially who lives near the border.
Last edited by SallesNeto_BR on Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 10:30, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 04:57

I've often thought there needs to be a globally agree to set of phrases for referees to use in rugby so communication is made easier. To many times I've seen English speaking referees give penalties to non-English speaking teams for instances that could have come down to not understanding the instructions the referee is saying.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 05:32

Since they're only refereeing 1 game each maybe that was intentional because they may not be qualified enough to take on more matches.


No. The Brazilian referee, Henrique Platais, is qualified and experienced. He has already refereed all main South American matches (Argentina-Uruguai, Chile-Uruguay, Argentina-Chile), WR U20s Trophy... the issue for referees from Brazil now is that we are not doing the political work. CBRu operated several months without a referees director. We are even for more than a year without rugby laws in Portuguese.

It has nothing to do with Platais' curriculum. BTW, he had a Mexican wife and was working in USA for some months recently. Perfect Spanish and English.

Also, Brazilian players never had any communication issues with Spanish-speaking or English-speaking referees. Just look at our squad.
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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 09:14

SallesNeto_BR wrote:Portuguese and Spanish share 85% of vocabulary. It doesn't mean they are always mutually intelligible -- it's sometimes hard, specially for the Espanohablantes, because Portuguese is richer in terms of phonems. But the famous "Portuñol" use to do the trick between us.

Besides that, lots of South Americans have good skills speaking both languages, specially who lives near the border.

Let me add we often have bigger issues to understand Portugal's Portuguese than Brazil's.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby suofficer » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 09:46

Is it because our women have better mustaches than yours and this often gets in the way?

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 09:56

I'm sorry to break such a traditional banter that only could be improved with a reference to towels, but most Portuguese women I've met so far were like goddesses :lol:

Regarding Portuguese/Brazilian, original Portuguese sounds more 'closed' to me. It's shocking to listen to the comparison between them here. But hey, I admit my countrymen are awful at learning languages.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 13:00

This might sound like a dumb question but does South American Spanish/Portuguese sound different to European Spanish/Portuguese? Are there accents in the same way Americans and Australians have with English?

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 13:08

Yes. Not only there is difference between them but inside them. Within Spain you can find a wide range of accents and both vocabulary and accent differ between Mexico, Colombia or Argentina.

There is a relative of mine who migrated from Spain to Brazil as a kid and returned as an adult. Currently he gets weird faces due to his accent whether it's in Spain, in Brazil or in Portugal when he goes on holidays in spite of being fluent in both languages

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 13:17

This might sound like a dumb question but does South American Spanish/Portuguese sound different to European Spanish/Portuguese? Are there accents in the same way Americans and Australians have with English?


Yes, very different, like what happens in English, but perhaps more different.

About Portuguese, it is true that most Brazilians can't understand a fast Portugal's Portuguese speaker. It is because in Portugal they tend to cut or speak really fast the vowels, while Brazilians speak open vowels.

But there are many regional differences inside Portugal - I am a very good Portugal's Portuguese listener, as my father is Portuguese, but I have real trouble understanding people from the Azores, for exemple - and MANY regional differences inside Brazil. A guy from Rio Grande do Sul state sounds REALLY different from a guy from Ceará state for exemple. Inside Brazil there are major regional differences between the sounds of "S" and "R" and the use of the second person ("you" can be"tu" or "você", depending on the region).

There is also Africa's Portuguese, that is different. But I think for exemple Mozambique's and Angola's Portuguese sound more like Portugal's Portuguese.

About Spanish, I'll let the Spanish speaker tell. But Spain's Spanish and Argentina's Spanish are really different and also have differences in the sound of some letters. And obviously there are regional differences inside each country (Buenos Aires' Spanish is different from Tucumán's, for exemple).
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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby Tobar » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 13:44

And the rest of Latin America is very different from Spain’s Spanish. This gap in difference is huge - ask any South American and they can give you a through and detailed explanation of every country’s Spanish. Then the Caribbean Spanish like in Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic is even more different (and no offense to PR/DR members here but also considered worse).

The clearest example I can think of is that in Spain (or at least some parts) they use vosotros for “you plural” whereas most of South America uses Ustedes. The difference is that a word could end in -ais for vosotros and -an for ustedes. Then you have to take into account vos in which some places like Argentina and interestingly Medellin, Colombia use vos for “you singular” instead of tu.

Victor you may know what word I’m referring to but I have a paolista friend who went to Portugal and the people there kept referring to her by a word that (in Brazil) means slut. So she was confused and starting to get pissed that these pretentious Portuguese people were calling her this but apparently in Portugal it just means girl and a common thing to refer to people.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby SallesNeto_BR » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 14:51

Hahaha, yes, it's kinda difficult for Brazilians understanding Portuguese accent. In fact, to many Brazilians it'd be easier touching base with a Mexican than with a Portuguese -- which is bizarre. I remember that on my first day in Lisbon I even talked in English to an hotel worker :lol: :lol:

As Victor said, it's basically because of the way they (don't) pronunciate vowels. Furthermore, we Brazilians don't use to consume songs, soap operas, etc from Portugal (I'd say almost never), so ours ears aren't accustomed to their accent. Besides that, Portuguese get our accent easily, as they do consume Brazilian products (and because the % of Brazilians living there is obviously larger than Portuguese in Brazil, as we have a 20-times larger population). So we often have a funny situation where only one interlocutor understands whole conversation.

Of course, somedays of immersion in Portugal are sufficient to make the things more clear for Brazilians.

There are an interesting video about how similar is the European Portuguese accent to Slavic languages, even with almost no common words: https://youtu.be/Pik2R46xobA

So I can say "Portuguese from Portugal" really sounds like Russian to us :D

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 16:36

Tobar wrote:And the rest of Latin America is very different from Spain’s Spanish. This gap in difference is huge - ask any South American and they can give you a through and detailed explanation of every country’s Spanish. Then the Caribbean Spanish like in Puerto Rico and Dominican Republic is even more different (and no offense to PR/DR members here but also considered worse).

The clearest example I can think of is that in Spain (or at least some parts) they use vosotros for “you plural” whereas most of South America uses Ustedes. The difference is that a word could end in -ais for vosotros and -an for ustedes. Then you have to take into account vos in which some places like Argentina and interestingly Medellin, Colombia use vos for “you singular” instead of tu.

Victor you may know what word I’m referring to but I have a paolista friend who went to Portugal and the people there kept referring to her by a word that (in Brazil) means slut. So she was confused and starting to get pissed that these pretentious Portuguese people were calling her this but apparently in Portugal it just means girl and a common thing to refer to people.


Yes, "rapariga" :lol: There are other words with a inocent meaning in one country and a rude/offensive/dirty meaning in the other. There is a kind of bread with a name in Portugal that means penis in Brazil.

I really like Portuguese accent. I can easily get the accent when I am in Portugal. But Brazilians misunderstand Portuguese people. I sometimes hear Brazilians complaining that the Portuguese are rude but most times are just cultural differences.

Small coreection: it is paulista with u, from São Paulo. Paolo is Paulo (Paul) in Italian.
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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby Tobar » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 17:57

victorsra wrote:Yes, "rapariga" :lol: There are other words with a inocent meaning in one country and a rude/offensive/dirty meaning in the other. There is a kind of bread with a name in Portugal that means penis in Brazil.


I get the impression that Brazilians just have dirty things to say to each other

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby victorsra » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 19:05

I won't say no :lol:
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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 19:51

Armchair Fan wrote:Yes. Not only there is difference between them but inside them. Within Spain you can find a wide range of accents and both vocabulary and accent differ between Mexico, Colombia or Argentina.

There is a relative of mine who migrated from Spain to Brazil as a kid and returned as an adult. Currently he gets weird faces due to his accent whether it's in Spain, in Brazil or in Portugal when he goes on holidays in spite of being fluent in both languages

There are significant differences with French as well. The French language spoken in Quebec for example is more original than the French in France. Same with many of the former colonies of France, the evolution of the French language overtime away from France is much slower per se.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 19:58

I'm not sure. I'd say Québecois disgregated from French far more than the language spoken in colonies. Of course there is accent differences, but the vocabulary is basically the same. I've got no problem to understand French from Maghreb or Central Africa but to listen to a guy from Quebec at first glance is quite a shock. But hey, I'm not a language expert, I just judge from TV5 Monde and sport broadcasts.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby Tobar » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 20:46

TheStroBro wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:Yes. Not only there is difference between them but inside them. Within Spain you can find a wide range of accents and both vocabulary and accent differ between Mexico, Colombia or Argentina.

There is a relative of mine who migrated from Spain to Brazil as a kid and returned as an adult. Currently he gets weird faces due to his accent whether it's in Spain, in Brazil or in Portugal when he goes on holidays in spite of being fluent in both languages

There are significant differences with French as well. The French language spoken in Quebec for example is more original than the French in France. Same with many of the former colonies of France, the evolution of the French language overtime away from France is much slower per se.


Also in places in the US such as Tangiers Island and Appalachian Mountain region, many of the accents are "preserved" and people talk a bit more like 18th century Brits would. They don't speak exactly the same but speak with rhoticity which is how many people spoke back then (and Shakespeare actually sounds more authentic when spoken like this).

Here is an article explaining it and here is an example video of Tangiers accent. For comparison, here is a video of the Globe Theatre using original pronunciation for Shakespeare.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby vino_93 » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 20:52

Armchair Fan wrote:I'm not sure. I'd say Québecois disgregated from French far more than the language spoken in colonies. Of course there is accent differences, but the vocabulary is basically the same. I've got no problem to understand French from Maghreb or Central Africa but to listen to a guy from Quebec at first glance is quite a shock. But hey, I'm not a language expert, I just judge from TV5 Monde and sport broadcasts.

You're right, understand French spoken in Québec is very difficult for us in France. Words have different meanings.

In Africa there is quasi no differences with us. Sometimes the sentences sounds a bit different in their grammar, but outside of accent it's very understable. The split with them is very recent, so the language is basically the same.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 19 Dec 2018, 23:33

SallesNeto_BR wrote:Hahaha, yes, it's kinda difficult for Brazilians understanding Portuguese accent. In fact, to many Brazilians it'd be easier touching base with a Mexican than with a Portuguese -- which is bizarre. I remember that on my first day in Lisbon I even talked in English to an hotel worker :lol: :lol:

As Victor said, it's basically because of the way they (don't) pronunciate vowels. Furthermore, we Brazilians don't use to consume songs, soap operas, etc from Portugal (I'd say almost never), so ours ears aren't accustomed to their accent. Besides that, Portuguese get our accent easily, as they do consume Brazilian products (and because the % of Brazilians living there is obviously larger than Portuguese in Brazil, as we have a 20-times larger population). So we often have a funny situation where only one interlocutor understands whole conversation.

Of course, somedays of immersion in Portugal are sufficient to make the things more clear for Brazilians.

There are an interesting video about how similar is the European Portuguese accent to Slavic languages, even with almost no common words: https://youtu.be/Pik2R46xobA

So I can say "Portuguese from Portugal" really sounds like Russian to us :D


Seems a bit similar to us where people from Scotland and Ireland ( and even some parts of England) speak English that’s difficult to understand sometimes. It’s like you know they are speaking the same language as you, but you have to really concentrate to understand them.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby 4N » Thu, 20 Dec 2018, 02:28

Explanation on why French in Quebec evolved differently from France, for those interested. As others noted, Quebec French is derived from an older version of the language.

Spoiler:
Many texts confirm that towards the end of the 17th century everyone in New France (aka: Canada – aka: Québec) spoke French.

In France, on the other hand, outside of Paris (and even within Paris) the popularly spoken patois were still robust and in extensive use. Two out of every five inhabitants of what is now modern-day France were unable to understand any French at all and only one out of every five inhabitants could understand and speak French fluently.

In 1698, an historian, Claude-Charles Le Roy de la Potherie, the sieur de Bacqueville, while on an official visit to Québec, wrote « the French spoken here is perfect and we can find no trace of any provincial French in it. » He was surprised that ‘everyone’ in Québec, even the ‘peasants’ (ie: tenant farmers), spoke a French that was comparable to the one spoken in the King's court!

At the time, as a percentage of the population, more French was spoken in Québec than was spoken in France and the use of French became universal in Québec well before it became universal in France.

This phenomenon is due to two main factors.

The colonists who populated New France came from a variety of regions of France and each spoke his maternal patois but once here often found themselves with neighbours who spoke a different patois, so the need for a common language was born. The most prestigious language at the time was, ‘the King’s French’.

In the early years, before the Catholic Church’s wholesale involvement in education, women were Québec’s primary educators. Research has determined that the vast majority had at least a partial knowledge of French AND that ‘the King’s French’ was the only French for which rules of grammar and syntax had been formalised.

This is how New France came to speak ‘the King’s French’ and explains many of modern Québec French’s peculiarities, such as the use of « y » instead of « lui » (J'y ai donné l'argent que j'y dois.) (I gave HIM the money I owe HIM) or the legendary « assisez-vous » instead of « asseyez-vous » (sit down). It is also from ‘the King’s French’ that come the very common « moé » and « toé » (you and me) pronunciation which is so ridiculed by speakers of French from France.

And since a majority of the colonists came from Normandie and Picardy, one also finds a lot of northern particularities in Québéc French, such as the « -eux » used at the end of words, like in the words « siffleux, robineux, seineux, têteux, niaiseux, ostineux ou senteux ». (Everyone of them more flattering than the previous!)

Of course, there is also an interesting contribution made by First Nation languages, especially when it came to the names of animals or objects that did not exist in Europe (calumet, achigan, ouananiche, masquinongé, carcajou, etc).

Québec French also favours maritime expressions (embarquer, virer, baliser, mouiller) because fishing and the Saint-Laurent River figure so prominently in early settlers’ lives.

After the British conquest of 1759, Québec found herself isolated from Mother France.

Québec French thus became the language of the conquered while English was the language of the new powerful elite.

Québec French was the language of the fishermen and farmers and the Roman Catholic Church while English was the language of government, commerce and technology (since virtually all new technologies were acquired from either England or the United States).

Québec French was the language of the uneducated while English was the language of the educated and absolutely positively had to be mastered if one wished to be upwardly mobile.

And even those who never learned English outright adopted many English terms and expressions, ‘les anglicismes’. « C’est un CHALLENGE. Je dois double-CHECKay. » (Its a challenge. I will have to double-check.)

After the French Revolution of 1789, the French language in France changed dramatically. Bourgeois French replaced ‘the King's French’ as the language in vogue. This did not occur in Québec and ‘the King’s French’, rather than being supplanted, continued to evolve.


There’s another major French dialect in Canada too, Acadien, spoken in the Maritimes and a few towns in northern Maine. It’s also what Cajun (slang for Acadien/Cadien) French from Louisiana is based on.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 20 Dec 2018, 02:45

France also has an institution to preserve their language, which is why Quebec French is probably different. English on the other hand just steals from all languages, about 30% of English words have French origins from the time France ruled Britain, the rest is a mixture of old Saxon, Germanic, Spanish, Portugese, Dutch, and a bunch of other languages. English is a very fluid language.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby Tobar » Thu, 20 Dec 2018, 03:21

It’s very interesting to learn about the origins of language in Europe. Most areas with Romance languages were very integrated into Roman society which explains the language. Brittania was also connected and by the end of the western Roman Empire it was arguably more Roman than other areas in the empire. But due in large part to its distance from Rome and the fact that it was an island that had many unconquered parts, it was always distant an part of its own completely separate society. Then the Saxons and Germanic tribes came over followed by the Vikings and really screwed things up.

There’s a British History Poscast I recommend listening to but there are about 500 episodes.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 20 Dec 2018, 03:27

There's a really good book called the Adventures of English which follows the evolution of the language. Worth a read.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby SallesNeto_BR » Thu, 20 Dec 2018, 03:58

Try LangFocus Channel on YouTube. I'm addicted on it. Terrific.

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Re: Americas Rugby

Postby Sables4EVA » Thu, 20 Dec 2018, 06:19

Just a quick note so the thread can get back to being about rugby:

Italian people have the same regional accents as the English and my mother who is born and bred Italian but lived in an English country since she was a teenager (50+years) says Italian people struggle to understand her as she now has a very strong foreign accent to her Italian.

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