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Fiji Rugby

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 15 Nov 2016, 13:50

Horsehead wrote:
4N wrote:No offense to Ben Ryan, but he should probably stick to Xs and Os.

Ryan believes a new Super Rugby franchise in Fiji, which could lead to a second one in Tonga, would have a much greater impact on the player drain than extending the residency qualifications from three to five years, which is under consideration.


Why? Whether this happens or not (probably unlikely which is a shame) I think he is correct, a super rugby franchise based out if fiji would give players the potential to stay in Fiji and earn a living as a professional rugby player. It would never stop the player drain but i'm sure it would have more impact than the mooted change in the residency rule


Because Tonga has a population of 100k and in the last world cup squad 12 players were born and bred in New Zealand. Two players went to different countries (Paula Kinikinilau for Romania and Malakai Fekitoa/NZ). So Fekitoa is the only case of somebody "stealing" Tongan talent. Overall there is no player drain from Tonga.

Even more so for Samoa. 13 players where born in New Zealand. Only one single player (Jerome Kaino/ NZ) played for another team, but even he immigrated 7 years old and has run through the whole NZ system AND he was born in American Samoa, so actually a loss for the USA.
Source: http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2015/0 ... -rwc-2015/

The player drain from the PIs is a modern myth (maybe a small case for Fiji). The reasons people leave those island are not always rugby specific. They do win way more from the ANZ development systems than they loose.

Still I would love to see a Super Rugby franchise in Fiji as this could be sustainable. At least there I can see the basics like more population to survive. Maybe branded as a second All Black style team worldwide.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby ARHS » Tue, 15 Nov 2016, 20:34

Mystified by a recent post about limited player drain:

Scan the professional clubs and you will make a different conclusion.......

France Top 2 Leagues: 56 in top league + 55 more in second division

Samoa 15 top league plus 12 second div

Tonga 9 top league + 15 second div

Fiji 31 top league + 27 second div

PNG 1 2nd

Cooks 1 top

Romania:

4 Samoans + 2 Tongans

Russia

3 Tongans

Spain

1 Tongan, 2 Samoans

Australia NPC

2 Samoans 2 Tongan 1 Fijian (plus others no doubt..)

Japan Top League

14 Tongans

3 Fijians

3 Samoans

England

27 Samoans

9 Fijians

18 Tongans

Celtic League

4 Fijians

4 Tongans

3 Samoans

Italy

2 Fijians

1 Tongan

1 Samoan

NZ NPC

12 Tongans

12 Samoans

10 Fijians

1 Niue

In total we have in pro rugby outside the islands:

Fiji 87
Tonga 81
Samoa 81
Cooks 2
PNG 1

252 players without looking too hard!

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 16 Nov 2016, 10:17

ARHS wrote:Mystified by a recent post about limited player drain:

Scan the professional clubs and you will make a different conclusion.......
[...]
Fiji 87
Tonga 81
Samoa 81
Cooks 2
PNG 1

252 players without looking too hard!


Good on them. And still Tonga and Samoa rely heavily on NZ-born-players in their World Cup squads. Nobody ever questioned that they would have the depth to field a team by themself.
Also a Super Rugby team would not lead to less players playing abroad. I'm quite positive, that actually more players would play professional abroad in the long run, when they even get a good start in a local Super Rugby team.

Maybe there are different understandings of "player drain". If you mean "player drain" by meaning the best players not playing for PI nations, I strongly disagree based on the overall RWC numbers.
If you mean "player drain" by players playing pro-rugby abroad, I think this is actually a very good thing for a national team from a country simply not big or financially viable enough to support their own pro-league.

Just out of interest to your great overview. Where did you get it from?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby Muzzy » Wed, 16 Nov 2016, 18:47

RugbyLiebe wrote:
ARHS wrote:Mystified by a recent post about limited player drain:

Scan the professional clubs and you will make a different conclusion.......
[...]
Fiji 87
Tonga 81
Samoa 81
Cooks 2
PNG 1

252 players without looking too hard!


Good on them. And still Tonga and Samoa rely heavily on NZ-born-players in their World Cup squads. Nobody ever questioned that they would have the depth to field a team by themself.
Also a Super Rugby team would not lead to less players playing abroad. I'm quite positive, that actually more players would play professional abroad in the long run, when they even get a good start in a local Super Rugby team.

Maybe there are different understandings of "player drain". If you mean "player drain" by meaning the best players not playing for PI nations, I strongly disagree based on the overall RWC numbers.
If you mean "player drain" by players playing pro-rugby abroad, I think this is actually a very good thing for a national team from a country simply not big or financially viable enough to support their own pro-league.

Just out of interest to your great overview. Where did you get it from?


Usually what happens is PI teams get most of their best players in the RWC, but they can't get them during the non RWC years. So they can field their best team for only one tournament every four years. A PI Super Rugby team would help solve this problem.

As for players playing abroad, I don't mind guys trying to make it with bigger teams. But don't want to see the big teams taking all of the smaller nations best talent. That wouldn't be good for the international game. According to Ben Ryan they now have the money to support a Fijian team in Super Rugby, so again this helps solve that problem.

Look at what Austraia have done recently. In 2015, Naiyaravoro was named in the Fijian World Cup team. Australia then made him an offer afterwards and named him in their team. But what ended up happening, they gave Naiyaravoro no game time at all then gave him one game that year against the USA and didn't even select him for the World Cup. So they didn't even really want him, they just didn't want Fiji to have him. This year they also named Eto Nabuli and Marika Koroibete in their team, knowing full well they are never going to give these guys any game time. It was just a way of preventing Fiji from getting them.

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby Warpath » Wed, 16 Nov 2016, 23:51

Yeah but we don't really care about taking our wingers, we create them back on the island in spades..What Fiji needs is front row player especially a hooker and possibly a number 8, a number 10 and a fullback....these are our weak position so if we lose a capable player in one of these positions to a tier 1 team, then we get pissed. Nathan Hughes was good possibility at 8 so losing him does hurt, but then we have an international standard 15, possibly the best Fullback in the northern hemisphere in Isa Nacewa who refuses to ever play for us so yeah we don't really care about losing players when our own deserts us in the time of need..

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby ARHS » Thu, 17 Nov 2016, 01:01

Those numbers came from a quick scan of pro club rosters. (I do regular research in this area...) They ignore players who have already transferred allegiance to a new country - such as Hughes, Tuilagi, Nakaitaci, Vakatawa etc.

By player drain I am referring to players leaving the islands to play rugby. Looking at the RWC squads is very misleading. Instead have a good look at the quality of the teams fielded between world cups. Very few RWC players play domestically. That is what a super franchise will change. It will allow a player pathway domestically.

Currently the patterns might run like this:

-Huge numbers of youngster play in the villages and junior schools
-The best ones get offered scholarships in NZ or Australia, or maybe Japan. They arrive there young and will be eligible for their new country by the time they are ready for international rugby - if they are good enough. If not good enough, they might play for their homeland
- The best hit the world stage at under-20 level, or on sevens circuit. It is there that they are noticed by recruitment agents and offers come in from the pro clubs. Many will hope to play for the country they move to, and have a better life as a result.
- Older players who don't get the big offers shift to NZ or Australia to play and make their name. The best ones get offered Super Rugby contracts, and set their goals on All Blacks or Wallabies. Once they lose that aspirational goal they join Pacific Nations squads. After a cap or three they head off to France or England, knowing that they are not really wanted for Super rugby any more.
-From then on they have to weigh up their commitments to their employer and their financial future against the ability to play for their country.
-There is no continuity of selections for national teams, lack of combinations and vast differences in the style of rugby players are used to - a coach's nightmare!

End result is that you have lost offshore 80 to 90 of the best possible 100 players for a domestic league in each country. A super franchise, with an allied development squad (mostly under 20s) will keep 60 or more of those players in the Islands.

Did you see this team posted on the Tongan facebook page?:


1. Ben Tameifuna (Racing, France)
2. Tatafu Polota-Nau (Wallabies)
3. Mako Vunipola (England)
4. Lopeti Timani (Wallabies)
5. Patrick Tu'ipulotu (Allblacks)
6. Toby Faletau (Wales)
7. Amanaki Mafi (Japan)
8. Billy Vunipola (England)
9. Augustine Pulu (Allblacks)
10. Richie Mounga (Crusaders, NZ)
11. Nehe Milner-Skudder (Allblacks)
12. George Moala (Allblacks)
13. Malakai Fekitoa (Allblacks)
14. Charles Piutau (Allblacks)
15. Israel Folau (Wallabies)

Reserves
16. Tolu Latu (Wallabies)
17. 'Ofa Tu'ungafasi (Allblacks)
18. Siosiua Halanukonuka (Tonga)
19. Vaea Fifita (AllBlacks)
20. Leon Fukokuka (Crusaders,NZ)
21. Uilisi Halaholo (Hurricanes,NZ)
22. David Havili (Crusaders, NZ)

Good food for thought. Seeing Bundee Aki relocate to Ireland was bad enough. Now the huge and hugely talented Brian Alainu'uese has gone to play in Scotland - presumably after missing out on a Super rugby contract. I really hope that he is one of the first players signed for the proposed Fijian franchise, even though he is Samoan.

And, in case you hadn't noticed, Ben Tameifuna was not selected for Tonga against either Spain or USA. Guess that might allow him to be eligible for France for next World Cup. (I don't know official reasons for him being in squad but not playing though...)

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 17 Nov 2016, 01:32

ARHS wrote:Those numbers came from a quick scan of pro club rosters. (I do regular research in this area...) They ignore players who have already transferred allegiance to a new country - such as Hughes, Tuilagi, Nakaitaci, Vakatawa etc.

By player drain I am referring to players leaving the islands to play rugby. Looking at the RWC squads is very misleading. Instead have a good look at the quality of the teams fielded between world cups. Very few RWC players play domestically. That is what a super franchise will change. It will allow a player pathway domestically.

Currently the patterns might run like this:

-Huge numbers of youngster play in the villages and junior schools
-The best ones get offered scholarships in NZ or Australia, or maybe Japan. They arrive there young and will be eligible for their new country by the time they are ready for international rugby - if they are good enough. If not good enough, they might play for their homeland
- The best hit the world stage at under-20 level, or on sevens circuit. It is there that they are noticed by recruitment agents and offers come in from the pro clubs. Many will hope to play for the country they move to, and have a better life as a result.
- Older players who don't get the big offers shift to NZ or Australia to play and make their name. The best ones get offered Super Rugby contracts, and set their goals on All Blacks or Wallabies. Once they lose that aspirational goal they join Pacific Nations squads. After a cap or three they head off to France or England, knowing that they are not really wanted for Super rugby any more.
-From then on they have to weigh up their commitments to their employer and their financial future against the ability to play for their country.
-There is no continuity of selections for national teams, lack of combinations and vast differences in the style of rugby players are used to - a coach's nightmare!

End result is that you have lost offshore 80 to 90 of the best possible 100 players for a domestic league in each country. A super franchise, with an allied development squad (mostly under 20s) will keep 60 or more of those players in the Islands.

Did you see this team posted on the Tongan facebook page?:


1. Ben Tameifuna (Racing, France)
2. Tatafu Polota-Nau (Wallabies)
3. Mako Vunipola (England)
4. Lopeti Timani (Wallabies)
5. Patrick Tu'ipulotu (Allblacks)
6. Toby Faletau (Wales)
7. Amanaki Mafi (Japan)
8. Billy Vunipola (England)
9. Augustine Pulu (Allblacks)
10. Richie Mounga (Crusaders, NZ)
11. Nehe Milner-Skudder (Allblacks)
12. George Moala (Allblacks)
13. Malakai Fekitoa (Allblacks)
14. Charles Piutau (Allblacks)
15. Israel Folau (Wallabies)

Reserves
16. Tolu Latu (Wallabies)
17. 'Ofa Tu'ungafasi (Allblacks)
18. Siosiua Halanukonuka (Tonga)
19. Vaea Fifita (AllBlacks)
20. Leon Fukokuka (Crusaders,NZ)
21. Uilisi Halaholo (Hurricanes,NZ)
22. David Havili (Crusaders, NZ)

Good food for thought. Seeing Bundee Aki relocate to Ireland was bad enough. Now the huge and hugely talented Brian Alainu'uese has gone to play in Scotland - presumably after missing out on a Super rugby contract. I really hope that he is one of the first players signed for the proposed Fijian franchise, even though he is Samoan.

And, in case you hadn't noticed, Ben Tameifuna was not selected for Tonga against either Spain or USA. Guess that might allow him to be eligible for France for next World Cup. (I don't know official reasons for him being in squad but not playing though...)


What your criteria for this select as you would have at least two poaches in that list for sure as both Tatafu Polota-Nau and Israel Folau are in fact bpth Australian born and raised. Could argue for Tolu as well as while he was born in Tonga he moved here as a tyke.

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 17 Nov 2016, 09:14

ARHS wrote:And, in case you hadn't noticed, Ben Tameifuna was not selected for Tonga against either Spain or USA. Guess that might allow him to be eligible for France for next World Cup. (I don't know official reasons for him being in squad but not playing though...)

He was always expected to make his debut against Italy and anyway it seems he had some health issues last week.

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby honestly_united » Thu, 17 Nov 2016, 11:12

I think this is the one single thing that will boost PI's rugby.
If you can give the best kids a contract at 16/17 it stops them having to leave to NZ/Aus/France to get a career in rugby.
Even if you can only keep them until they are 21/22 as long as you can get them capped before they move on for a nig pay day, they wont be turning out for someone else internationally. Hopefully it will cut out the number of instances like Nathan Hughes etc

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 17 Nov 2016, 11:41

@ARHS

Players go for money. That's normal in a professional sport.
There is no money on the islands and not enough population in addition if it comes to Tonga and Samoa

"The best ones get offered scholarships in NZ or Australia, or maybe Japan. They arrive there young and will be eligible for their new country by the time they are ready for international rugby - if they are good enough. If not good enough, they might play for their homeland"
Then why are there not even a handfull of Islanders in those RWC-squads you just named? Not saying, that this doesn't happen at all, but as Samoa and Tonga have more Kiwi ("re")-imports than guys playing for other national teams. PI are also gainin something from a good rugby education.
I don't really see the point overall.

"Older players who don't get the big offers shift to NZ or Australia to play and make their name. The best ones get offered Super Rugby contracts, and set their goals on All Blacks or Wallabies. Once they lose that aspirational goal they join Pacific Nations squads. After a cap or three they head off to France or England, knowing that they are not really wanted for Super rugby any more. "

But there are a lot of SANZAAR players heading for Europe, too. Again it is a professional sport. Players tend to think about their families. Super Rugby is great, but not the holy grail. Good rugby is played somewhere else, too (before this starts a discussion I prefer Super Rugby myself).

I am all for a team in the PIs. I do see the benefits. I think it will help. But it won't lead to less players playing abroad.
Also I see some sense placing one in Fiji and try to promote the "exotic" flavour worldwide. But I don't really see two of them financially viable in the two poorest nations playing rugby at tier2 level.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby Horsehead » Thu, 17 Nov 2016, 13:10

I can't believe on a T2 rugby forum that there are people who don't think this would be good for Fiji and the PIs. I really don't think it will happen as I don't think for one minute NZ and Australia want there to be a Fijian Super Rugby team but if it did (and I would love it to be true) it would be fantastic for Fiji to have players playing regular high level rugby and would improve those positions where they are weakest. It would never stop the player drain but it would lead to more players playing for Fiji with experience of top level rugby. Plus it would be great for the Fijian public to get to see super rugby games. I can't see how anyone would think this is a bad idea if the funding is in place

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 17 Nov 2016, 13:15

Horsehead wrote:I can't believe on a T2 rugby forum that there are people who don't think this would be good for Fiji and the PIs. I really don't think it will happen as I don't think for one minute NZ and Australia want there to be a Fijian Super Rugby team but if it did (and I would love it to be true) it would be fantastic for Fiji to have players playing regular high level rugby and would improve those positions where they are weakest. It would never stop the player drain but it would lead to more players playing for Fiji with experience of top level rugby. Plus it would be great for the Fijian public to get to see super rugby games. I can't see how anyone would think this is a bad idea if the funding is in place


Who here is not for a team?
We are talking why an additional second team based in Tonga or Samoa will not happen.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby ARHS » Thu, 17 Nov 2016, 21:36

Yes, players look to what is economically best for them. But they also weigh up family considerations, and hometown loyalties. Currently, the odds are stacked heavily against them going to an RWC if they stay at home. There are a few domestic players in the squads for Pacific Nations matches, but they generally make way for more experienced professionals for bigger tests. If they have aspirations they have to play at the highest level they are capable of. Setting up a franchise will give them that choice, and less players will be recruited by other countries, or fail to realise their potential in an unfamiliar environment.

That fanciful 'Tongan' lineup posted on their forum simply illustrated what team they might have if they could attract players to commit to their ancestral country. A Fijian franchise might need a few Tongan tight forwards and Samoan playmakers to round out it's squad to be competitive at first, and they are out there!

Good on you Dean Ryan. If there are further noises that Western Force is not financially viable, or that Cheetahs and Kings should merge -----due to the player drain to Europe lol... then they are first cab off the rank.

Super rugby is funded by TV rights and Merchandising more than round-robin attendances. As Olympics Sevens winners there is no doubt their appearance in Super rugby would generate new viewers and increased interest in a competition that is losing momentum. And, they will pack their stadium for home matches - with fantastic publicity from the enthusiasm they show.

I hazard a guess that the decision-makers will already be doing their sums on the Fijian franchise proposal - like the Chiefs and Crusaders did. But, it will be just one franchise, not two.

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 17 Nov 2016, 22:20

I always thought if a Pacific Islands team were to ever arrive in Super Rugby it would have to be based in NZ for it to be viable, but if there's a plan in place that could make it financially feasible for the team to be based in Fiji then I'm all for it. A second team based in Samoa or Tonga however seems fanciful.

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby Paula Bale » Thu, 17 Nov 2016, 22:52

A Pasifika Super Rugby team based in NZ will never work. No one attends Super Rugby games in NZ as it is; especially in Auckland. You're not gonna get a good crowd at Mt Smart Stadium or North Harbour Stadium when Aucklanders barely support a Pasifika-laden Blues team to begin with.

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby Warpath » Thu, 17 Nov 2016, 23:11

Fiji:
15 Metuisela Talebula (bordeaux-begles)
14 Benito Masilevu (Brive)
13 Asaeli Tikoirotuma (London Irish)
12 Albert Vulivuli (Racing-Metro)
11 Nemani Nadolo (Montpellier)
10 Josh Matavesi (Ospreys)
9 Seru Vularika (Fiji Warriors)
8 Akapusi Qera (Montpellier)
7 Peceli Yato (Clermont)
6 Dominiko Waqaniburotu (Brive)
5 Leone Nakarawa (Racing-Metro)
4 Api Ratuniyawara Northampton Saints)
3 Manasa Saulo (Toulon)
2 Sunia Koto (Fiji Warriors)
1 Campese Ma’afu (Northampton Saints)

Replacements:

16 Tuapati Talemaitoga ( Stade de Francis)
17 Peni Ravai (Southland)
18 Leeroy Atalifo (Canterbury)
19 Nemia Soqeta (Oyonnax)
20 Naulia Dawai (Connacht)
21 Eremasi Radrodro (Fiji Warriors)
22 Nikola Matawalu (Exeter Chiefs)
23 Kini Murimurivalu (La-Rochelle)

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby Muzzy » Fri, 18 Nov 2016, 05:18

Warpath wrote:Fiji:
15 Metuisela Talebula (bordeaux-begles)
14 Benito Masilevu (Brive)
13 Asaeli Tikoirotuma (London Irish)
12 Albert Vulivuli (Racing-Metro)
11 Nemani Nadolo (Montpellier)
10 Josh Matavesi (Ospreys)
9 Seru Vularika (Fiji Warriors)
8 Akapusi Qera (Montpellier)
7 Peceli Yato (Clermont)
6 Dominiko Waqaniburotu (Brive)
5 Leone Nakarawa (Racing-Metro)
4 Api Ratuniyawara Northampton Saints)
3 Manasa Saulo (Toulon)
2 Sunia Koto (Fiji Warriors)
1 Campese Ma’afu (Northampton Saints)

Replacements:

16 Tuapati Talemaitoga ( Stade de Francis)
17 Peni Ravai (Southland)
18 Leeroy Atalifo (Canterbury)
19 Nemia Soqeta (Oyonnax)
20 Naulia Dawai (Connacht)
21 Eremasi Radrodro (Fiji Warriors)
22 Nikola Matawalu (Exeter Chiefs)
23 Kini Murimurivalu (La-Rochelle)


Pretty good team tbh, can't be too mad with this. Great to see Matavesi get a start. Still think Nadolo should be at 12 but oh well, they need to get Nadolo in the game as much as possible.

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby Earl of Currie » Fri, 18 Nov 2016, 07:25

I think World Rugby has a resposibility to get more involved to ensure Fiji / Pacific Island teams are represented in competitions like Super Rugby as soon as possible.
Even if an interim measure like Fiji / PI teams playing their home games in NZ until there is sufficient growth is put in place it would be better than the current situation where rich clubs / countries are bleeding these countries dry for selfish reasons.

Another example of the rich getting richer at the expense of Fiji isdiscussed on the following article on BBC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p04gsjrx

If Fiji was given a financial avenue to hold onto its best players for a longer period , this country would go from strength to strength at 15's not just 7's

If WR cannot get involved in ensuring entry to Super Rugby , then they should insist on a more equitible split of gate receipts for teams (am sure NZ have already raised this as an issue)

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 18 Nov 2016, 07:49

ARHS wrote:Yes, players look to what is economically best for them. But they also weigh up family considerations, and hometown loyalties. Currently, the odds are stacked heavily against them going to an RWC if they stay at home. There are a few domestic players in the squads for Pacific Nations matches, but they generally make way for more experienced professionals for bigger tests. If they have aspirations they have to play at the highest level they are capable of. Setting up a franchise will give them that choice, and less players will be recruited by other countries, or fail to realise their potential in an unfamiliar environment.

What I simply don't understand is this contradiction between: "we have too many players abroad" and a lot of players in our national team (Samoa+Tonga) are Kiwis.
Also I doubt "less players will be recruited by other countries". Probably the most players abroad worldwide are Kiwis and they do have the best competition in the world at home.
So again. If you are lucky there will be more players recruited to play in other countries (recruited by other countries is an assumption with no solid numbers to back it up (based on the small percentage at the RWC 2015 - the very "biggest game" in the rugby world)) and you will benefit from it by creating a even broader base.

I think the PI competitiveness nowadays relies a lot on the very good rugby education a lot of players gain in NZ. Yet we still only hear about the very small numbers of "poached players". I would be very happy, if that much German players would train in that kind of environment. But I would never even think about accusing SA of poaching our players, because they might have a german mother or father or both, when they fully grew up rugby-wise in SA.


ARHS wrote:That fanciful 'Tongan' lineup posted on their forum simply illustrated what team they might have if they could attract players to commit to their ancestral country. A Fijian franchise might need a few Tongan tight forwards and Samoan playmakers to round out it's squad to be competitive at first, and they are out there!


But that lineup is pure fantasy. One could say, actually a poaching fantasy, as most (not all) players did never even live on the islands while old enough to play rugby.
But to finish on something we do agree on. It would be would be great to see a true PI-team Super Rugby team with players from all countries involved.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby honestly_united » Fri, 18 Nov 2016, 09:50

RugbyLiebe wrote:
ARHS wrote:Yes, players look to what is economically best for them. But they also weigh up family considerations, and hometown loyalties. Currently, the odds are stacked heavily against them going to an RWC if they stay at home. There are a few domestic players in the squads for Pacific Nations matches, but they generally make way for more experienced professionals for bigger tests. If they have aspirations they have to play at the highest level they are capable of. Setting up a franchise will give them that choice, and less players will be recruited by other countries, or fail to realise their potential in an unfamiliar environment.

What I simply don't understand is this contradiction between: "we have too many players abroad" and a lot of players in our national team (Samoa+Tonga) are Kiwis.
Also I doubt "less players will be recruited by other countries". Probably the most players abroad worldwide are Kiwis and they do have the best competition in the world at home.
So again. If you are lucky there will be more players recruited to play in other countries (recruited by other countries is an assumption with no solid numbers to back it up (based on the small percentage at the RWC 2015 - the very "biggest game" in the rugby world)) and you will benefit from it by creating a even broader base.

I think the PI competitiveness nowadays relies a lot on the very good rugby education a lot of players gain in NZ. Yet we still only hear about the very small numbers of "poached players". I would be very happy, if that much German players would train in that kind of environment. But I would never even think about accusing SA of poaching our players, because they might have a german mother or father or both, when they fully grew up rugby-wise in SA.


ARHS wrote:That fanciful 'Tongan' lineup posted on their forum simply illustrated what team they might have if they could attract players to commit to their ancestral country. A Fijian franchise might need a few Tongan tight forwards and Samoan playmakers to round out it's squad to be competitive at first, and they are out there!


But that lineup is pure fantasy. One could say, actually a poaching fantasy, as most (not all) players did never even live on the islands while old enough to play rugby.
But to finish on something we do agree on. It would be would be great to see a true PI-team Super Rugby team with players from all countries involved.


The issue is not that players are moving overseas to take up contracts, the problem is they are moving at a young age before they have played international for Fiji or Samoa or Tonga and as such are being capped after 3 years residency.

If there is professional rugby in the Islands they can keep young players longer, and have they opportunity to cap them before they go off in search of a big pay day. If they are already capped it also makes them less desireable to other unions / clubs

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 18 Nov 2016, 10:21

honestly_united wrote:
The issue is not that players are moving overseas to take up contracts, the problem is they are moving at a young age before they have played international for Fiji or Samoa or Tonga and as such are being capped after 3 years residency.

If there is professional rugby in the Islands they can keep young players longer, and have they opportunity to cap them before they go off in search of a big pay day. If they are already capped it also makes them less desireable to other unions / clubs


This makes sense and I don't deny it. I just have my problems with how often it really happens, that players are capped by different nations today. The latest evidence of the RWC 2015 says, it doesn't happen as often and if it happens (first case), Tonga and Samoa are actually the biggest users of capping "foreign" players.
Second case being, that the PI benefits for the PI of so many homebread players playing on a higher level abroad are greater than they do harm.

So next up: has this really increased so much since the 2015 RWC or was it always some solely cases stirred up by fans and media?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 18 Nov 2016, 17:45

Armchair Fan wrote:
ARHS wrote:And, in case you hadn't noticed, Ben Tameifuna was not selected for Tonga against either Spain or USA. Guess that might allow him to be eligible for France for next World Cup. (I don't know official reasons for him being in squad but not playing though...)

He was always expected to make his debut against Italy and anyway it seems he had some health issues last week.



Presumably the fact he is morbidly obese and shit ...

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby Muzzy » Sat, 19 Nov 2016, 21:00

Well it was 3:30 am on a Sunday morning so I was hungover but what I learned from that game:

Matavesi > Volavola. Its no longer debatable imo
Matawalu > any other Fjiian halfback by miles
Ravai > Ma'afu

I think Vularika was alright considering he was a local player though.

As Ben Ryan pointed out around half time, a lot of Englands scores were due to Fiji's basic mistakes and coming up out of defensive alignment. A lot of the time it was Tikoirotuma rushing up at centre. Maybe they should keep him as winger and have Goneva or Nayacalevu as centre. I thought Nayacalevu was one of the better players against the Barbarians. Murimurivalu has been in top form as fullback for La Rochelle and made a strong impact when he came on as well. Could always have Talebula on the wing and Murimurivalu as fullback.

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby Warpath » Sun, 20 Nov 2016, 13:13

The Fiji 7's team to Dubai confirmed

Forwards
* Nemani Nagusa
* Sevuloni Mocenacagi
* Jasa Veremalua (co- vice captain)
* Emosi Mulevoro
* Masivesi Dakuwaqa
* Setareki Bituniyata

Backs
* Waisea Nacuqu
* Seremaia Tuwai
* Kitione Taliga
* Osea Kolinisau (c)
* Kalione Nasoko (utility)
* Joeli Lutumailagi
* Samisoni Viriviri (co- vice captain)
* Josua Vici

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Re: Fiji Rugby

Postby Bolaroid » Mon, 21 Nov 2016, 05:45

While I doubt it happens, a Fijian rugby franchise would be excellent. They'd be made for Super rugby.

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