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New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby amz » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 13:49

victorsra wrote:The problem is to keep reproducing the closed international competitions concept.


There isn't any open professional international concept in rugby. The Rugby Championship, 6N, Super Rugby are all closed, don't work with relegation; Top 14 and Premiership are exceptions because of the economical bases of their countries and the amount they put into rugby. But the closed shop model is the business model of WR and I don't see how you can change that when money in rugby are so hard earned. You must think economics first when you ask for such revamp. I agree with you that open system looks to be the correct one but this warm up competition doesn't replace the meritocratic one made of age grades International competitions. Only way to open this closed shop is money or beat them hard as Argentina did and Japan (partly) did. So this is Georgians only chance to have a credible bid for 6N, beating some T1 nations (and not Italy :) ) , this is the way, there isn't other.

When they opened the system we've seen a lot of issues with Portugal refusing to send a side like Wolves in Challenge Cup, with Spanish champion refusing to attend or Georgians not being able to field a strong enough club team or even a franchise. So why this obsession with this opened shop principle when there aren't economical (and not sport ones imo) means to compete? Why a private venture would bother with age grades teams when the respective senior sides are in T3 or the Union have issues with bankruptcy laws, just to give only two examples which were lately discussed here as alternatives to Georgia and Romania.

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby GeoRugby » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 14:05

First, for Romania it was the first chance of touring outside after we organized for 10 years the Nations Cup.


Wasn`t Nations Cup and Tbilisi Cup World Rugby organized tournaments that were given to the respective countries? Reading some posts from Romanian posters in regard to Nations Cup, one might get an idea that Romania did everyone a favour by participating in it. I think other participating countries did as much favor to Romanian rugby by being there. It is a mutual thing.

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby amz » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 14:08

GeoRugby wrote:
First, for Romania it was the first chance of touring outside after we organized for 10 years the Nations Cup.


Wasn`t Nations Cup and Tbilisi Cup World Rugby organized tournaments that were given to the respective countries? Reading some posts from Romanian posters in regard to Nations Cup, one might get an idea that Romania did everyone a favour by participating in it. I think other participating countries did as much favor to Romanian rugby by being there. It is a mutual thing.


You probably missed the fact that Romania paid a share of the costs. A small one, but still paid. This saved many headaches of sides that don't have the money to tour. So Romania was actively took part in development programs of WR. Anyway, your point is? Every match have mutual benefits, I am sure you learned a lot from last match from REC.

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby victorsra » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 14:18

Club/Franchise competitions like Super Rugby and PRO12 are a different problem because loads of money are needed as they are too long competitions. They must be market-oriented, otherwise they are doomed.

The open concept does exist in national teams' competitions inside the regional unions and in WR competitions. That is the battlefield, as national teams' in any sport must deal with both things: market, to be sustainable, and merit (but a merit open for everybody to achieve in a clear path, just like in the Olympics, Soccer, Basketball, Volleyball, Tennis, etc). The only differences between rugby and soccer for exemple is that rugby needs shorter tournaments because there isn't enough money and the need for divisions because you can't put major powers against too amateur sides.
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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby GeoRugby » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 14:23

You probably missed the fact that Romania paid a share of the costs.

Without IRB/World rugby there wouldn't be any Nations cup. Your small share wouldn't have mattered in actively developing programs of World Rugby. That's my point.

Every match have mutual benefits, I am sure you learned a lot from last match from REC.


What I learned from last REC game doesn't matter. It matters more what the players learned and I don't think is is a good thing for Romania next year in Tbilisi.

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby amz » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 14:26

@victorsa
And loads of money aren't needed as well for The Championship or 6N? Again I underline that I agree with you about merit, if you see what Bogdan said about Romanian rugby history we had our fair share of situations when merit was ignored but the unpleasant reality is that rugby union's business model is closed shop and there aren't credible indications that open shop one will be economically viable. Prove that it is economically viable and will bring profits, this is what will open the shop.

GeoRugby wrote:Without IRB/World rugby there wouldn't be any Nations cup. Your small share wouldn't have mattered in actively developing programs of World Rugby. That's my point.


Rugby Union probably would be in an awful state without an Governing body. Wales wouldn't probably play with you in November without WR.

Again, what is your point, do you even have one or just pull out phrases out of context to feed your well known hate toward Romania?

GeoRugby wrote:What I learned from last REC game doesn't matter. It matters more what the players learned and I don't think is is a good thing for Romania next year in Tbilisi.


Yeah, Gorgodze retired :)
Last edited by amz on Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 14:50, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby Bogdan_DC » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 14:35

Victor Any T2&T3 country needs to do the Romania steps in rugby:

- start playing rugby over 100 years ago (you already done this)
- start being popular sport in the country (you already done this)
- start beating other T2 countries (you already done this)
- beating the shit out of this countries on youth and seniors
- start beating T1 on youth
-start beating T1 on seniors also
- nothing happened a lot of years, but you are still beating T1
- you start being beaten by T1
- T1 destroy you
- some T2 beat you also
- you still have good youth but seniors sucks, T2and some T3 beat you
- your youth is disqualified for no reason, you are not let to promote even if you win your right to do so etc
- you start having shit youth also and your rugby looks doomed
- start having back a decent T2 team
- you are beating again majority of T2 countries but your youth doesn't look good
- nothing happened a lot of years but still you are having a good T2 team ( you win against Georgia but you lost to Germany,who lose to everybody bar Belgium "who is not even a country") but your youth still doesn't look good
Congratulations you received a 6N+2 U20 warm up tournament invitations!!!
You are not excited by this?!
Last edited by Bogdan_DC on Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 15:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby GeoRugby » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 14:49

Again, what is your point, do you even have one or just pull out phrases out of context to feed your well known hate toward Romania?

I'm not going to repeat same staff to you just because it flies over your head. Hate Romania?! I don't hate Romania. I just disagree with you. Your ignorance and spitefulness have no limits. Can anyone on this forum disagree with you without you getting all uptight? Yes your U20 team was chosen because of Georgia U20 performances. Get use to it and be happy and thankful instead of trying to justify to yourself (and no one else) why magically Romania U20 deserves this chance even ahead of Portugal or Spain who are better at this level in every respect.

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby victorsra » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 15:12

Victor Brazil need to do the Romania steps in rugby:


Who is talking about Brazil!? We are many steps behind, we haven't even played a WC. I think we are another discussion topic, mates.

And loads of money aren't needed as well for The Championship or 6N? Again I underline that I agree with you about merit, if you see what Bogdan said about Romanian rugby history we had our fair share of situations when merit was ignored but the unpleasant reality is that rugby union's business model is closed shop and there aren't credible indications that open shop one will be economically viable. Prove that it is economically viable and will bring profits, this is what will open the shop.


RWC, 6N and TRC are half of all discussions here. Everybody has many ideas about it. I have posted loads about it as everybody else. It needs money but it can be found a mid term to make it open and sustainable, as they have 5/6 rounds. That is the meaning of the debates in this forum.
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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby Bogdan_DC » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 15:24

victorsra wrote:
Victor Brazil need to do the Romania steps in rugby:


Who is talking about Brazil!? We are many steps behind, we haven't even played a WC. I think we are another discussion topic, mates.

Changed from Brazil to any t2 or T3 country.

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby Sergiu » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 15:26

GeoRugby wrote:
Yes your U20 team was chosen because of Georgia U20 performances.

Totally agree! More than this, NASA thanked GRU the other day, for making the moon landing possible, back in 1969.

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby GeoRugby » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 15:48

Sergiu wrote:
GeoRugby wrote:
Yes your U20 team was chosen because of Georgia U20 performances.

Totally agree! More than this, NASA thanked GRU the other day, for making the moon landing possible, back in 1969.


Good that you agree, but the second part is so random. You trying too hard.

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby Sergiu » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 15:53

GeoRugby wrote:
Sergiu wrote:
GeoRugby wrote:
Yes your U20 team was chosen because of Georgia U20 performances.

Totally agree! More than this, NASA thanked GRU the other day, for making the moon landing possible, back in 1969.


Good that you agree, but the second part is so random. You trying too hard.

If that is what you got, you are incapable of understanding simple matters.

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 15:57

The invitation is far from ideal, but is better than no invitation. I rate it as a positive nonetheless.

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby GeoRugby » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 16:59

Sergiu wrote:
GeoRugby wrote:
Sergiu wrote:
GeoRugby wrote:
Yes your U20 team was chosen because of Georgia U20 performances.

Totally agree! More than this, NASA thanked GRU the other day, for making the moon landing possible, back in 1969.


Good that you agree, but the second part is so random. You trying too hard.

If that is what you got, you are incapable of understanding simple matters.

Apperentry you don't grasp sarcasm, speaking of simple matters.You are correct in that your few little posts since you registered are very simple indeed.

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby Sergiu » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 17:37

Q.E.D.

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby armchair_expert » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 19:51

olivier wrote:So now Georgia and Romania must have the bravery to say 6N they must play in U20 Rugby Europe Championship instead.

In this way, the "closed" mentality will never end. This is just awful conservatism.

the dinosaurs of the professional rugby would rather die than act outside of the closed elite club concept

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby datodato » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 21:31

amz wrote:
GeoRugby wrote:
Every match have mutual benefits, I am sure you learned a lot from last match from REC.


That I call arrogant. The only thing I learnt is that once in every 100 years SA looses against Japan, Wales against Fiji and Georgia against Romania (with 1 point thanks to Kvirikashvili and the Ref). It is very simple: You don't deserve to be in the U20 tournament. Thanks to GRU, a commited age grade coaching team and talented and willing young men from Georgia you get the undeserved oppurtunity to play with your players who are worse than Netherlands and were fist pumping after a victory against Germany U18. Georgian coaches, supporters and players invested a tramendous amount of money, sweat and time to build a strong youth base and forming youth teams able to beat Ireland, Italy and Argentina while you were losing against Russia 33-5. The only reason your descending Rugby Union will get the opportunity to play against England U20 or Wales U20 is because in Georgia there are heavily working guys, young and old, rich and poor who love the game and love seing young Georgian players who are their sons, neighbors or classmates thriving in the sport they love. It is not just unfair to these people to see that they worked so hard for what you get as a present, it is also unfair to Portugal, Spain and all the other European T2 nations who are beating the hell out of your youth teams every single year. So let's roll on to 2019 and I assume many T2 fans will love to see how the Romanian U20, the equivalent of the senior Italy team, will compete in a tournament they are far too bad to play in and will get beaten by similar margins if not higher than Italy in the 6N.

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby Kiroshi » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 21:44

datodato wrote:
amz wrote:
GeoRugby wrote:
Every match have mutual benefits, I am sure you learned a lot from last match from REC.


That I call arrogant. The only thing I learnt is that once in every 100 years SA looses against Japan, Wales against Fiji and Georgia against Romania (with 1 point thanks to Kvirikashvili and the Ref). It is very simple: You don't deserve to be in the U20 tournament. Thanks to GRU, a commited age grade coaching team and talented and willing young men from Georgia you get the undeserved oppurtunity to play with your players who are worse than Netherlands and were fist pumping after a victory against Germany U18. Georgian coaches, supporters and players invested a tramendous amount of money, sweat and time to build a strong youth base and forming youth teams able to beat Ireland, Italy and Argentina while you were losing against Russia 33-5. The only reason your descending Rugby Union will get the opportunity to play against England U20 or Wales U20 is because in Georgia there are heavily working guys, young and old, rich and poor who love the game and love seing young Georgian players who are their sons, neighbors or classmates thriving in the sport they love. It is not just unfair to these people to see that they worked so hard for what you get as a present, it is also unfair to Portugal, Spain and all the other European T2 nations who are beating the hell out of your youth teams every single year. So let's roll on to 2019 and I assume many T2 fans will love to see how the Romanian U20, the equivalent of the senior Italy team, will compete in a tournament they are far too bad to play in and will get beaten by similar margins if not higher than Italy in the 6N.


Oh no!!! The 6th(or 7th? I've lost count) Romanian Rugby Apocalypse is about to begin!!! :shock:

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby Lobo » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 21:54

amz wrote:It is also silly to see some Portuguese moaning while their team struggle to beat Belgium and their Union have probably the steepest decline, playing in 3rd tier despite good age grades teams. You failed to beat Belgium. Maybe you don't fulfill your potential, why aren't you more concerned with this issue?


Portuguese moaning? I just wrote that, oddly enough, Portugal is second best (at U20 and U18). I wrote nothing against Romania. I never said who should be invited to that tournament.

Portuguese rugby, except at age grades, is going through the worst crisis in its whole history, and the future looks completely dark.

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby amz » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 22:01

apologies than, I though it is another passive aggressive type of post (4N style)

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby GeoRugby » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 22:53

Sergiu wrote:Q.E.D.

You're overcompensating.

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby victorsra » Fri, 14 Jul 2017, 23:00

The invitation is far from ideal, but is better than no invitation. I rate it as a positive nonetheless.


Agree!
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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby Lobo » Sat, 15 Jul 2017, 00:02

amz wrote:apologies than, I though it is another passive aggressive type of post (4N style)


Fair enough.

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Re: New U20 tournament for 6 Nations, Georgia, Romania

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 15 Jul 2017, 02:41

There seems to be a lot of heat in this thread. Can someone fill me in as to what the issues are?

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