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2017-18 Continental Shield

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 24 Jan 2018, 19:45

I wonder why the hell do you accuse Timisoara if they are not in charge of the competition. It's the EPCR saying they want to spread the game, not the Romanians... It's unfair as hell, we all know that, but you're attacking some that don't deserve that.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Vova12 » Wed, 24 Jan 2018, 19:51

amz wrote:Timisoara won a match vs one Russian team when had the opportunity so there isn't any gap.

"Krasniy Yar" on the neutral field in Georgia?
But lost by the sum of two matches.

If yours won i would congratulate you on your victory!

But EPCR is winning for yours in the office ...
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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Vova12 » Wed, 24 Jan 2018, 19:54

Armchair Fan wrote:I wonder why the hell do you accuse Timisoara if they are not in charge of the competition. It's the EPCR saying they want to spread the game, not the Romanians... It's unfair as hell, we all know that, but you're attacking some that don't deserve that.

Is this an attack? No ...
I"m just explaining the curent situation ...
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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Vova12 » Wed, 24 Jan 2018, 19:59

I should have already got used to yours tricks but still it still upset me.

Forgive me for my weaknes ...
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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby amz » Wed, 24 Jan 2018, 20:03

It's a typical Russian scam.

Timisoara won on what was considered Krasny Yar home turf. Why didn't you played in Sibir and picked Georgia? Btw, I seen some sort of reportage made by a Russian fan and he was making fun of the Georgian hosts in the tradition of good Russian characher (or lack of it).

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Vova12 » Wed, 24 Jan 2018, 20:09

amz wrote:It's a typical Russian scam.

Timisoara won on what was considered Krasny Yar home turf. Why didn't you played in Sibir and picked Georgia? Btw, I seen some sort of reportage made by a Russian fan and he was making fun of the Georgian hosts in the tradition of good Russian characher (or lack of it).

EPСR prohibited playing in Krasnoyarsk so they played in Georgia.
But it did not help yours.
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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Canalina » Thu, 25 Jan 2018, 08:11

Now as now the qualified clubs for the new edition would be

ITA: Calvisano, Rovigo, Petrarca Padova, Fiamme Oro Roma
http://federugby.it/index.php?option=co ... Itemid=939

ROM: Steaua Bucharest (independently from a Timisoara qualification or not qualification to the Challenge Cup)
https://www.super-liga.ro/superliga/clasament/

GEO: Aia Kuitasi
http://site.rugby.ge/ka-GE/2017-18-Didi10/

RUS: Enisei, eventually Krasny Yar
http://rrpl.ru

GER: Heidelberger RK (best points rating), eventually Hannover 78
http://www.totalrugby.de/component/opti ... temid,502/

SPA: VRAC Quesos Valladolid
http://www.ferugby.es/comp_nacional.php ... sificacion

POR: Belenenses Lisbon
http://www.fpr.pt

BEL: Dendermonde
https://www.sportkipik.be/-division-1-

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby STMKY » Thu, 25 Jan 2018, 15:47

I think that from Russia should play Krasny Yar, Kuban and VVA.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby NedRugby » Fri, 26 Jan 2018, 16:23

How does that work with qualification for next year? Will there be some kind of qualification matches between all those teams Canalina listed, or will it be expanded to 12 clubs?

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Armchair Fan » Fri, 26 Jan 2018, 16:26

Qualification? There's no qualification. If I'm not mistaken Rugby Europe and FIR make a recommendation to EPCR, then national unions confirm or decline the invitation.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Canalina » Fri, 26 Jan 2018, 17:49

I've simply listed the current leaders of the championships of the nations involved in the Continental Shield: 4 for Italy, 1 for the others. It's just a speculation, no clues at all about the participants to the next edition

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Vova12 » Fri, 26 Jan 2018, 18:06

amz wrote:It's a typical Russian scam.


Russian scam))
Russian scam in the game where we do not have a single trump !

The Russians can win the war against all of yours but in these office games we always lose.

Unfortunately.
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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby STMKY » Fri, 26 Jan 2018, 18:30

NedRugby wrote:How does that work with qualification for next year? Will there be some kind of qualification matches between all those teams Canalina listed, or will it be expanded to 12 clubs?

12 is small. It is necessary to expand to 16. If the EPCR is afraid of too many games in groups and large financial costs for poor teams, then I offered a good version of the scheme with knockout games after each round.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby NedRugby » Fri, 26 Jan 2018, 20:07

Canalina wrote:I've simply listed the current leaders of the championships of the nations involved in the Continental Shield: 4 for Italy, 1 for the others. It's just a speculation, no clues at all about the participants to the next edition


Ah, OK. I just noticed that Belgian club Dendermonde participated previously but not this year (ended up on zero points so maybe they decided it was a bad experiment). There are a couple of Dutch guys playing for Dendermonde.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby tellchar » Thu, 01 Feb 2018, 16:40

This is a proposition of @JamesWales from topic http://t2rugby.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=277&start=1325 (now locked up)

It’s really encouraging to hear about the finals being taken around Europe more – As much as I’ve loved Cardiff getting the finals every 3-4 years, this should have happened years ago.

It is a bit pointless however, without a legacy, and that legacy needs to be greater representation in the European Challenge Cup.

At the very least, two additional sides need to qualify from the Challenge Shield, so that typically we would end up with (for example) a Russian, Spanish, Georgian and German team – that then starts to have the hallmarks of a genuinely pan-european tournament.

Personally, I’d favour the below; increasing access to the tournament, widening to new markets, reducing group games, while increasing knock out games. Top two from a group of three would go through, meaning almost no dead-end games. Strikes me as a win-win situation.

Champions Cup
24 teams
8 groups of 3 > 16 >8>4>2

Challenge Cup
24 Teams
8 groups of 3>16>8>4>2


I've got better idea:
Champions Cup:
25 teams (8 ENG, 8 FRA, 9 PRO14)
5 groups of 5, every team plays 2 games at home and 2 games away and got 1 bye in group. Best 3 of each group advance to 1 play-off round = 15 teams = 7 matches (the best team gets directly to QF), then QF, SF, and the final).

Challenge Cup
25 teams, 5 groups of 5 as in Champions Cup
4 ENG, 6 FRA, 3 PRO14 and 12 teams from ITA, SPA, POR, GEO, ROM, RUS, GER, BEL which today are supposed to play in Continental Shield

Continental Shield for clubs representing RET and Conference countries
Last edited by tellchar on Thu, 01 Feb 2018, 17:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby STMKY » Thu, 01 Feb 2018, 17:38

Too fast transition from 2 to 12 teams from the Continental Shield in the Challenge Cup. This will dramatically lower the level of the Challenge Cup. 24 is the optimal number, of which Russia, Romania, Italy and Georgia can receive 1 automatic place. Another 2 teams can fall as now from the Continental Shield.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 02 Feb 2018, 09:29

tellchar wrote:5 groups of 5


Sorry to be quite frank here: groups of 5 are the worst group format known (apart from playing against the team from another group like in the CS).
I will never understand why on earth anybody would promote this senseless and injust format, if groups of 4 do always solve all of your problems.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Horsehead » Fri, 02 Feb 2018, 10:37

RugbyLiebe wrote:
tellchar wrote:5 groups of 5


Sorry to be quite frank here: groups of 5 are the worst group format known (apart from playing against the team from another group like in the CS).
I will never understand why on earth anybody would promote this senseless and injust format, if groups of 4 do always solve all of your problems.


Groups of 5 are awful for something like the World Cup but for the pool stage of the continental shield where it seems the teams would rather play four games rather than six I think pools of 5 make perfect sense. Much better than the current format of playing teams from a different group

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby beber » Fri, 02 Feb 2018, 19:06

I'm for a 16-team Champions Cup with :
- 5 best ranked teams from Top14
- 5 best ranked teams from Premiership
- 5 best ranked teams from Pro14 (but South Africans)
- 1 extra spot for the country of the winner of the last Champions Cup

2 best teams from each pool can advance in final 8


And a 32-team Challenge Cup
- all others teams from Top14, Premiership & Pro14 (but South Africans)
- 10 teams from Continental Shield

EXAMPLE


CHAMPIONS CUP
Pool 1 : Saracens - La Rochelle - Munster - Newcastle Falcons
Pool 2 : Glasgow Warriors - Gloucester - Leinster - Toulon
Pool 3 : Exeter Chiefs - Scarlets - Bath - Toulouse
Pool 4 : Montpellier - Wasps - Racing92 - Ulster

CHALLENGE CUP
Pool 1 : Harlequins - Bordeaux-Bègles - Newport Dragons - Calvisano
Pool 2 : Castres - Benetton Treviso - London Irish - Batumi
Pool 3 : Connacht - Worcester Warriors - Brive - CDU Lisboa
Pool 4 : Cardiff Blues - Northampton Saints - Oyonnax - Timisoara Saracens
Pool 5 : Ospreys - Leicester Tigers - Agen - Viadana
Pool 6 : Sale Sharks - Stade Français - Krasny Yar - Petrarca
Pool 7 : Lyon - Edinburgh - Enisei-STM - Rovigo
Pool 8 : Pau - Clermont - Zebre - Heidelberg RK

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 02 Feb 2018, 22:01

Horsehead wrote:
Groups of 5 are awful for something like the World Cup but for the pool stage of the continental shield where it seems the teams would rather play four games rather than six I think pools of 5 make perfect sense. Much better than the current format of playing teams from a different group


The CS format is so stupid nobody will argue about it.
But groups of 5 are still unbelievable injust.

Challenge cup 2017/18
Group 1 5/12 away wins (3 involving Krasnojarsk)
Group 2 2/12 away wins
Group 3 5/12 away wins (2 involving Zebre)
Group 4 5/12 away wins (2 involving Krasny Yar)
Group 5 3/12 away wins
So one can easily make a claim, that home advantage is indeed a significant advantage. A 20/60 aka 66% advantage. Or even more so if you don't count in way weaker teams than the average in a tournament.

So no, playing your biggest rival for the quarters away and only away does not make sense at all if it is about sport.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby tellchar » Fri, 02 Feb 2018, 23:56

RugbyLiebe wrote:
tellchar wrote:5 groups of 5


Sorry to be quite frank here: groups of 5 are the worst group format known (apart from playing against the team from another group like in the CS).
I will never understand why on earth anybody would promote this senseless and injust format, if groups of 4 do always solve all of your problems.

When you have group of five you've got 2 benefits:
1. Only 4 games in pools stage in 5 weeks rather than 6 games in 6 weeks, so 2 games less in a long season.
2. Every team has one week free, so we could make a more friendly calendar of groups matches. In eg. in this season of Challenge Cup we had 6 weeks: 14&21 Oct, 9&16 Dec an 13&20 Jan. Enisey and Krasny Yar played their home matches in October weeks and 20 Jan. If there had been 5 teams-pool format, Russian clubs would have played in October home, in December away and would have got byes in January week. The "winter problem" is solved.

Yes, you're right when you're saying that it's injust to play your biggest rival for the quarters away and only away. But today the quarters and semis are scheduled as only 1 match, and one team has an advantage of playing home.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby STMKY » Sat, 03 Feb 2018, 08:52

More clubs from non-5N nations are good. But you are jumping without the stage of expansion of the Continental Shield. There are have only 8 clubs in Shield now. First you need to expand the Continental Shield to 16. For 2-3 seasons (2018-2020). Then expand the Challenge Cup to 24 teams, of which 4 places will be Italy, Russia, Romania and Georgia. Two places will be played from the Continental Shield. That is, 6 teams from non-5N in the Challenge Cup since 2021. This is optimal for the near future. We do not currently have 10-12 clubs, at least the level of the Enisei, Krasny Yar and Timisoara.

olivier

Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby olivier » Sat, 03 Feb 2018, 09:57

Simplest solution : look at UEFA... All nations send at least a club in European competitions via qualifications.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby tellchar » Sat, 03 Feb 2018, 23:44

olivier wrote:Simplest solution : look at UEFA... All nations send at least a club in European competitions via qualifications.

At UEFA there are qualifications at summer mid-weeks - it is imposible in rugby. Do you have enough weekends to play the qualifications matches, the domestic competitions and internationals? Do you have common calendar of games which is accepted in every single european country? And finally, UEFA pays at least 100k EURO to every club participating in qualification as a prize and to cover the travel costs. Who will pay that amount of money in rugby? Who will pay for travel costs, especially to semi-prof and amateur clubs representing european T3 countries?
It's not that simple

olivier

Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby olivier » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 14:03

This is very simple. It's just about power.

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