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2017-18 Continental Shield

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Vova12 » Sun, 13 May 2018, 15:48

TheStroBro wrote:
Vova12 wrote:Why do not they play in Russia? Russia has already flow to NAmerica many times.


Uh...We've only ever played you twice here. June 2010 and June 2016.

No, US played in Russia once in Krasnoyarsk in 2002 it seems.
Once played rugby league about the same time.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Bogdan_DC » Mon, 14 May 2018, 08:48

HRK is clearly the revelation of the competition. They progressed a lot in very short time.
Congrats to Enisey, they keep their level.
I still think the decision to send Krasny Yar to play Enisey was a crazy farcical one.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 14 May 2018, 09:05

Bogdan_DC wrote:HRK is clearly the revelation of the competition. They progressed a lot in very short time.
Congrats to Enisey, they keep their level.
I still think the decision to send Krasny Yar to play Enisey was a crazy farcical one.


I think Russia has shown, that they deserve one direct spot. Same goes imho for Romania. De facto each pro league should get one. I doubt especially French teams would be against it, if they lose two places. The rest of the places like this year. The two teams play each other. winner continues in the Challenge Cup, loser back to the Shield the next year. ( yeah it might be tough, but at least we get some "new blood" in every year.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby amz » Mon, 14 May 2018, 09:13

RugbyLiebe wrote:
I think Russia has shown, that they deserve one direct spot. Same goes imho for Romania. De facto each pro league should get one.


I partly agree. I still think Timisoara butchered their chances two years in a row due to their administrative and internal issues which influenced heavily the performance on field. Frankly I can't see them compete until they won't sort their stuff.

And considering how CSM is pushing with investment, they will have soon a serious contender for the spot. CSM's handball teams of the club are both in Euro cups with women team winning Champs League and constantly in final 4. I think similar ambitions are to be expected from the rugby section of the club.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby JamesWales » Mon, 14 May 2018, 09:39

No question about it - The winners of Spain, Portugal, Georgia and Romania (at least) should automatically enter the challenge cup. Over a short period of time, it may revolutionise the competition, and the leagues in question.

The challenge cup needs a modest expansion.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Blurandski » Mon, 14 May 2018, 11:51

Yup, the Challenge Cup should go to 24 teams, with Spanish, Italian, Russian, and Romanian champions auto qualifying and the other two spots filled by the shield. Or alternatively, 28 teams, with the 2 Saffa sides being eligible for Europe. Then set up a league coefficient for the T2 Leagues (including Excellenza) to allocate spaces. 6 spots in the Challenge, and 8 in the Shield. Leagues included: Spain, Portugal, Romania, Georgia, Italy, Russia, Germany, Belgium, Netherlands (9 in total). There will be a H&A playoff round between two teams to get into the shield.

1st: 2 Challenge, 1 Shield
2nd: 2 Challenge
3rd: 1 Challenge, 1 Shield
4th: 1 Challenge
5th: 2 Shield
6th: 1 Shield, 1 Shield PO round
7th: 1 Shield
8th: 1 Shield
9th: 1 Shield PO round

So based on last year's end results and my subjective weightings of the teams involved it would go: Russia, Italy, Georgia, Germany, Romania, Spain, Portugal, Belgium, Netherlands.
So: Enisey-STM, Krasny-Yar, (Russia)
Petrarca, Calvisano, (Italy)
Locomotive Tbilisi, (Georgia)
Heidelberger RK, (Germany) would be in the Challenge Cup.

In the Shield:
RC Kuban, (Russia)
Aia Kutaisi, (Georgia)
Steaua București, CSM București, (Romania)
VRAC Quesos Entrepinares, (Spain)
AEIS Agronomia, (Portugal)
Dendermondse RC, (Belgium)
and the winner of El Salvador vs RC Hilversum.

It'd allow the shifting of positions over time according to ability, and once some sides got used to competing year in, year out there may even be a Champions Cup place, should results be good enough.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 14 May 2018, 11:59

Your system has one logical flaw (but that's a huge one)
Germany would be ranked 1st as the HRK made by far the most points being the only team. 2nd ranked nation would be Romania, followed by probably Russia (2 wins in 3 games), Georgia and maybe then Italy (too many teams too few wins in between them).

Such a system is great but you need at least 3 years or even 5 to get some sense in it (if you can because how do you calculate the Challenge Cup teams in?)
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Canalina » Mon, 14 May 2018, 12:16

Wisely they invited the Enisei (and I hope the HRK's) players on the Bilbao stadium for the Champions final


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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Blurandski » Mon, 14 May 2018, 12:23

RugbyLiebe wrote:Your system has one logical flaw (but that's a huge one)
Germany would be ranked 1st as the HRK made by far the most points being the only team. 2nd ranked nation would be Romania, followed by probably Russia (2 wins in 3 games), Georgia and maybe then Italy (too many teams too few wins in between them).

Such a system is great but you need at least 3 years or even 5 to get some sense in it (if you can because how do you calculate the Challenge Cup teams in?)


Yeah, I was thinking about Germany, however you can go back across the last few years of the CS & CC to create a ranking. It would function in an identical way to the UEFA coefficient (but with different weightings), which awards points for wins, and BPs at different stages of each competition (with CC wins & BPs weighted far higher than CS wins and BPs). Then to get the national score you divide the total points all clubs of a country got by the number of clubs involved that year. The score used to award places is based on the total of the past 5 years, with discounting on the further back years. If HRK was strong enough to get 3rd or above by itself (which I don't think it would considering that Russia and Italy are clearly stronger) then eventually a second German side would join the CS, and consequently the German score for that year would probably be reduced, and they would then go back below 3rd. I'll give a mock rankings table a go when I get home.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 14 May 2018, 12:26

The main flaw I see in the system is that many of the league winners tend to reject the invite to take part in Continental Shield. Such a rigid system can only be in place once the tournament generates revenues, which may be never at all.

Canalina wrote:Wisely they invited the Enisei (and I hope the HRK's) players on the Bilbao stadium for the Champions final


It was the same last year at Murrayfield.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Vova12 » Mon, 14 May 2018, 12:37

Canalina wrote:Wisely they invited the Enisei (and I hope the HRK's) players on the Bilbao stadium for the Champions final


This is a children"s song about Africa.
"Do not go to Africa for a walk."



Small children!
No way
Do not go to Africa,
Go to Africa for a walk!
In Africa sharks,
In Africa gorillas,
In Africa large
Evil crocodiles
Will bite you,
To beat and offend, -
Do not go, children,
Go to Africa for a walk.

In Africa, a robber,
In Africa, the villain,
In Africa, the terrible
Bar-ma-lei! :twisted:
Last edited by Vova12 on Mon, 14 May 2018, 12:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby suofficer » Mon, 14 May 2018, 12:38

If Agronomia get in I think you could see the best performing Portuguese side of the last few attempts.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 14 May 2018, 12:40

Blurandski wrote: If HRK was strong enough to get 3rd or above by itself (which I don't think it would considering that Russia and Italy are clearly stronger) then eventually a second German side would join the CS, and consequently the German score for that year would probably be reduced, and they would then go back below 3rd. I'll give a mock rankings table a go when I get home.


It is not an if. The HRK or in this Germany would have gained more points this year than everybody because a system like the proposed one only works if you always divide the points through the participants form the country. I was once really interested in the UEFA-5-year-ranking and hopefully I remember a fair bit how it works. Otherwise Italy would have been first and actually Russia with "only 1,5" wins in average 5th or 6th (just before Portugal who didn't win a single match, if I recall correctly).

Don't get me wrong, I like the proposal. It is in theory great. But only in theory. Too many problems involved.
My idea:
Give all the REC-teams a spot and let one additional spot be battled out by the RET teams with the best gaining one spot for their club teams the next year. Will also have some positive effect on the national team.
Next step. Have two additional spots in the Challenge Cup be battled out by the performance of the respective country in the Challenge Cup in a 3-year-ranking.
Last edited by RugbyLiebe on Mon, 14 May 2018, 13:20, edited 1 time in total.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Bogdan_DC » Mon, 14 May 2018, 12:49

If you ask me they should invite everyone. This competition is not in the situation to be "picky". If Italians want to send 10 teams...let them.The same for Spain, Portugal and whoever wants to send a team. A second German team is competitive enough?
With Yenisei proving they are the best T2 club team is not appealing at all for everybody battling for one place. This is the soft spot. We need more places in CC.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Blurandski » Mon, 14 May 2018, 13:19

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Blurandski wrote: If HRK was strong enough to get 3rd or above by itself (which I don't think it would considering that Russia and Italy are clearly stronger) then eventually a second German side would join the CS, and consequently the German score for that year would probably be reduced, and they would then go back below 3rd. I'll give a mock rankings table a go when I get home.


It is not an if. The HRK or in this Germany would have gained more points this year than everybody because a system like the proposed one only works if you always divides the points through the participants form the country. I was once really interested in the UEFA-5-year-ranking and hopefully I remember a fair bit how it works. Otherwise Italy would have been first and actually Russia with "only 1,5" wins in average 5th or 6th (just before Portugal who didn't win a single match, if I recall correctly).

Don't get me wrong, I like the proposal. It is in theory great. But only in theory. Too many problems involved.
My idea:
Give all the REC-teams a spot and let one additional spot be battled out by the RET teams with the best gaining one spot for their club teams the next year. Will also have some positive effect on the national team.
Next step. Have two additional spots in the Challenge Cup be battled out by the performance of the respective country in the Challenge Cup in a 3-year-ranking.


I’ve had a little go at something that I’ll share in a few hours when I get home, I’ve upweighted Challege results by 4* (20 point teams in the CS go on to get 5-8 in the CC). Germany would narrowly be 3rd behind Russia and Romania and just ahead of Georgia. I’ll share a version where you can input your own weightings and see the results.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Canalina » Mon, 14 May 2018, 14:21

Armchair Fan wrote:The main flaw I see in the system is that many of the league winners tend to reject the invite to take part in Continental Shield. Such a rigid system can only be in place once the tournament generates revenues, which may be never at all.

Canalina wrote:Wisely they invited the Enisei (and I hope the HRK's) players on the Bilbao stadium for the Champions final


It was the same last year at Murrayfield.

I reckon to the organizers at least three good moves: to have moved the final in Getxo (probably Bilbao would have had not enough enthusiasm for a third final, while for Getxo that was 'their' final), to have created a nice trophy (I like that shield), to have invited the winners on the middle of the field that evening in Bilbao. These maybe seem obvious moves but considering with how much disinterestedness they managed the Continental Shield during the season that was not so obvious

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 14 May 2018, 14:29

Blurandski wrote:
I’ve had a little go at something that I’ll share in a few hours when I get home, I’ve upweighted Challege results by 4* (20 point teams in the CS go on to get 5-8 in the CC). Germany would narrowly be 3rd behind Russia and Romania and just ahead of Georgia. I’ll share a version where you can input your own weightings and see the results.


Fair enough sounds interesting. Looking forward to see it. The UEFA-ranking btw. has some different factors involved, like qualifying for the next playoff-round giving you one point. And 4 points if you survive the group stage. That's extremely interesting for both the CC-playoff and the Challenge Cup itself.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby STMKY » Mon, 14 May 2018, 14:29

Guys, remember my post of January 23, 2018. I already offered a point system similar to UEFA. Repeat.

A very simple rating system for the Continental Shield. In the group tournament, we take into account all points scored with bonuses. And in the playoff games, there is no point in considering bonuses, there is a difference in points for two games, so the team gets 5 points for a victory, 2.5 for a draw, and 0. The total is divided by the total number of club matches.
For example, the Enisei in the group games and the playoffs of the Continental Shield scored 44 points in 9 games. 44/9 = 4.888.
Enisei-STM (rus) 4.888
Timisoara (rom) 4.14
Petrarca (ita) 3.75
Krasny Yar (rus) 3.57
Heidelberger (ger) 3.071
Fiamme Oro (ita) 3
Calvisano (ita) 2.75
Bucuresti Wolves (rom) 2.5
Rovigo (ita) 2.472
VRAC (spa) 2.25
Batumi (geo) 2
Viadana (ita) 1.833
Mogliano (ita) 1.666
Direito (por) 1.5
El Salvador (spa) 1
CDUL (por) 0.666
Tbilisi Caucasians (geo) 0
Baia Mare (rom) 0
Royal Kituro (bel) 0
Dendermondse (bel) 0
Thus, we have a rating of 20 teams, of which only 4 did not score points. We have 4 championships Italy, Romania, Russia and Georgia, which can delegate several clubs to the tournament. Therefore, we need a rating for these championships so that we can roughly evaluate new clubs from these countries. For example, from next year new clubs Kuban, Steaua and Aia will participate. Obviously, they are stronger than Belgian clubs, so in the first season they must have a rating of their championship, not zero. To avoid a draw at the favorites of the tournament.
Russian RPL 4.312
Romanian SuperLiga 3.5
Italian Excellence 2.53
Georgian Didi10 1.5

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 14 May 2018, 14:32

STMKY wrote:Guys, remember my post of January 23, 2018. I already offered a point system similar to UEFA. Repeat.

A very simple rating system for the Continental Shield. In the group tournament, we take into account all points scored with bonuses. And in the playoff games, there is no point in considering bonuses, there is a difference in points for two games, so the team gets 5 points for a victory, 2.5 for a draw, and 0. The total is divided by the total number of club matches.
For example, the Enisei in the group games and the playoffs of the Continental Shield scored 44 points in 9 games. 44/9 = 4.888.
Enisei-STM (rus) 4.888
Timisoara (rom) 4.14
Petrarca (ita) 3.75
Krasny Yar (rus) 3.57
Heidelberger (ger) 3.071
Fiamme Oro (ita) 3
Calvisano (ita) 2.75
Bucuresti Wolves (rom) 2.5
Rovigo (ita) 2.472
VRAC (spa) 2.25
Batumi (geo) 2
Viadana (ita) 1.833
Mogliano (ita) 1.666
Direito (por) 1.5
El Salvador (spa) 1
CDUL (por) 0.666
Tbilisi Caucasians (geo) 0
Baia Mare (rom) 0
Royal Kituro (bel) 0
Dendermondse (bel) 0
Thus, we have a rating of 20 teams, of which only 4 did not score points. We have 4 championships Italy, Romania, Russia and Georgia, which can delegate several clubs to the tournament. Therefore, we need a rating for these championships so that we can roughly evaluate new clubs from these countries. For example, from next year new clubs Kuban, Steaua and Aia will participate. Obviously, they are stronger than Belgian clubs, so in the first season they must have a rating of their championship, not zero. To avoid a draw at the favorites of the tournament.
Russian RPL 4.312
Romanian SuperLiga 3.5
Italian Excellence 2.53
Georgian Didi10 1.5


I would include all the nations in the ranking. If they don't want to send a second team - fair enough, they can deny it within a time-frame. Then the next best nation is asked. But they should be implemented.
The ranking numbers were the ones combined from last year and the year before, right?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 14 May 2018, 14:36

suofficer wrote:If Agronomia get in I think you could see the best performing Portuguese side of the last few attempts.

By the way, since we were awaiting you in the Small News thread but you never showed up... Do you have any clue and could explain to us what the hell is happening with the end of Portuguese league?

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby STMKY » Mon, 14 May 2018, 14:43

RugbyLiebe wrote:
I would include all the nations in the ranking. If they don't want to send a second team - fair enough, they can deny it within a time-frame. Then the next best nation is asked. But they should be implemented.
The ranking numbers were the ones combined from last year and the year before, right?

Points were considered with all the years of the tournament. The last date is January 23, 2018. It can be considered for the last 5 years as in UEFA.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 14 May 2018, 14:59

STMKY wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
I would include all the nations in the ranking. If they don't want to send a second team - fair enough, they can deny it within a time-frame. Then the next best nation is asked. But they should be implemented.
The ranking numbers were the ones combined from last year and the year before, right?

Points were considered with all the years of the tournament. The last date is January 23, 2018. It can be considered for the last 5 years as in UEFA.


http://www.5-jahres-wertung.de/APD/Online/5JW.php
I loved this page. Not something to show around at parties, but a simple and great overview of the 5-year-ranking.
The flaw of your cumulated ranking is that, you can't really tell the years. I remember it and still think it is a great overview to begin with.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby suofficer » Mon, 14 May 2018, 15:00

Armchair Fan wrote:
suofficer wrote:If Agronomia get in I think you could see the best performing Portuguese side of the last few attempts.

By the way, since we were awaiting you in the Small News thread but you never showed up... Do you have any clue and could explain to us what the hell is happening with the end of Portuguese league?

yes i will go there now. sorry have been away.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby STMKY » Mon, 14 May 2018, 16:03

RugbyLiebe wrote:
http://www.5-jahres-wertung.de/APD/Online/5JW.php
I loved this page. Not something to show around at parties, but a simple and great overview of the 5-year-ranking.
The flaw of your cumulated ranking is that, you can't really tell the years. I remember it and still think it is a great overview to begin with.

We do not need to make the system too complicated. Just count the points for the last 5 seasons. This will really reflect the level of teams. We need two ratings: the rating of the clubs and the rating of the championships.

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Re: 2017-18 Continental Shield

Postby Blurandski » Mon, 14 May 2018, 16:24

I've had a go at a UEFA style ranking system. All the weightings are on the first page. If you want to edit the weightings of the years, or advancement then make a copy and change the values on the first sheet and it'll auto update.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

According to it Enisei is by far the best team, with Krasny Yar just ahead of Timisoara and Heidelberger RK. The Russian league has clear water, with Germany, Romania, and Italy broadly equal. The Italian league would rise in a system where there were only two teams, as currently their coefficient is split between four teams.
Last edited by Blurandski on Mon, 14 May 2018, 16:30, edited 1 time in total.

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