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Frustrated with Rugby cartel

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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby Bruce_ma_goose » Sun, 23 Jul 2017, 07:23

Canada have had way more Tier1 tests than Georgia over the years. The situation has only recently been addressed due to the likes of Pichot and the move for Tier1 tests to be allocated against the highest ranking Tier2s.

I think Canada have had very favourable treatment over the years, but whether that is more to do with "Empire" or simply geographic proximity to the USA I couldn't say.

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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby Thomas » Tue, 25 Jul 2017, 08:34

Frustrated at the treatment of Women's Rugby, they all talk about developing the sport etc... but this morning's news leaves a bitter taste. There must be a root, branch reform of the Unions and World Rugby starting with the RFU and it's so call Council.

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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby dropkick » Tue, 25 Jul 2017, 09:26

olivier wrote:
dropkick wrote:
The old cartel as you call it is battling ever increasing costs. Why shouldn't they look after themselves first?

Because globalization IS the best way to increase revenus...



Indeed it is, for the short to medium term.

Long term it starts to drain the less populated areas of their wealth.

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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby dropkick » Tue, 25 Jul 2017, 09:29

Thomas wrote:Frustrated at the treatment of Women's Rugby, they all talk about developing the sport etc... but this morning's news leaves a bitter taste. There must be a root, branch reform of the Unions and World Rugby starting with the RFU and it's so call Council.



Treatment of women's rugby? They're being funded by the men's game as it is. Nobody wants to watch women's rugby.

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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby SANE17 » Tue, 25 Jul 2017, 09:47

dropkick wrote:
Thomas wrote:Frustrated at the treatment of Women's Rugby, they all talk about developing the sport etc... but this morning's news leaves a bitter taste. There must be a root, branch reform of the Unions and World Rugby starting with the RFU and it's so call Council.



Treatment of women's rugby? They're being funded by the men's game as it is. Nobody wants to watch women's rugby.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: I'm with you on this. Women+Rugby is the worst combination ever!

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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby Thomas » Tue, 25 Jul 2017, 09:47

dropkick wrote:
Thomas wrote:Frustrated at the treatment of Women's Rugby, they all talk about developing the sport etc... but this morning's news leaves a bitter taste. There must be a root, branch reform of the Unions and World Rugby starting with the RFU and it's so call Council.



Treatment of women's rugby? They're being funded by the men's game as it is. Nobody wants to watch women's rugby.


I think you have no idea what you are talking about.

For the record my main gripe is the lack of consistency to how funding is been done by the RFU by any standard they are setting the benchmark world wide:

The current crisis has been created between constantly switching funds between 7s & 15s...They are not helping long term development & its appalling treatment to the players to do this so close to World cup (which I will be attending), further It's disgraceful when you consider the deal that the men get. The men got a pay rise recently and that's for a much larger squad than the women. I would call it discrimination in other profession.

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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby olivier » Tue, 25 Jul 2017, 09:48

dropkick wrote:
olivier wrote:
dropkick wrote:
The old cartel as you call it is battling ever increasing costs. Why shouldn't they look after themselves first?

Because globalization IS the best way to increase revenus...



Indeed it is, for the short to medium term.

Long term it starts to drain the less populated areas of their wealth.

Australia, New Zealand, Finland, Canada prove the opposite. Wealth nations who don't benefit were just the cheaters. Globalization exposes their own weaknesses.

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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 25 Jul 2017, 11:40

dropkick wrote:Treatment of women's rugby? They're being funded by the men's game as it is. Nobody wants to watch women's rugby.

At least here women have reached higher TV ratings than men for last two seasons. And they've found two sponsors for their national teams shirts, which men don't have.

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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 25 Jul 2017, 12:09

Thomas wrote:
The current crisis has been created between constantly switching funds between 7s & 15s...They are not helping long term development & its appalling treatment to the players to do this so close to World cup (which I will be attending), further It's disgraceful when you consider the deal that the men get. The men got a pay rise recently and that's for a much larger squad than the women. I would call it discrimination in other profession.


Just to get that straight. In front of how many people do the men play? And in front of how many people do women play? I don't know as the Women's 6 Nations does not publish any attendances but I fear not exactly as much as they play in stadiums like the Stadio Carotti with 1000 seats or Broadwood Stadium with 8k.

This has nothing at all to do with a rugby cartel. It has to do with a rugby cartel, that the Spanish rugby team is discriminated like Georgia from the 6 Nations. But apart from that this is a totallly different thing.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby Thomas » Tue, 25 Jul 2017, 12:18

two
RugbyLiebe wrote:
Thomas wrote:
The current crisis has been created between constantly switching funds between 7s & 15s...They are not helping long term development & its appalling treatment to the players to do this so close to World cup (which I will be attending), further It's disgraceful when you consider the deal that the men get. The men got a pay rise recently and that's for a much larger squad than the women. I would call it discrimination in other profession.


Just to get that straight. In front of how many people do the men play? And in front of how many people do women play? I don't know as the Women's 6 Nations does not publish any attendances but I fear not exactly as much as they play in stadiums like the Stadio Carotti with 1000 seats or Broadwood Stadium with 8k.

This has nothing at all to do with a rugby cartel. It has to do with a rugby cartel, that the Spanish rugby team is discriminated like Georgia from the 6 Nations. But apart from that this is a totallly different thing.


I agree the viewing figures are much less and I am not denying it, but classifying the women's Rugby as and add on or not good for viewing ignores the problem that women's rugby has been discriminated against, not just at the highest level but also in T2 Countries is all fundamentally part of the same problem just a different strand.

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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby victorsra » Tue, 25 Jul 2017, 12:41

The womens game issue is not about rugby's cartel but it is a shame how womens XVs development is neglected. At least sevens has the Olympics carrot.

It is a vicious cicle in any sport: noboby watches because it is not that good*. And it is not that good simply because there isn't enough support. And the thing is: you cant expect the women to play in a great way in senior age if they dont have the same support as men and investment in youth age! How many women under age good competitions are there?

*in fact it is already nice to watch womens sevens and top XVs. I always watch de sevens series and top W6N matches and enyoy it. We men watch loads of men crap matches. The fact is some people simply dont watch women sports because it is women playing. And there is zero marketing on womens rugby. Most people dont even know their celendar of events.
Last edited by victorsra on Tue, 25 Jul 2017, 13:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 25 Jul 2017, 12:57

I love that women's rugby is a game for all shapes and sizes as well. But lets be realistic about how big you can make it.
A rugby player is more or less a figure of an old warrior a soldier etc. While it is a good thing, that women nowadays can do whatever they want, I don't think the appearance of an average women's player will most likely be something a majority of people could brand as extremely hot looking etc. Which is the case for a male rugby player. One would wish this would be different, but this is the status quo and was for many thousand years.

I mean while there is definitely an undeniable number of women who watch men's rugby just because the athletes are considered hot, the number of men watching women's rugby because of this is quite surely smaller.
And if you compare a women's sport with exactly the same rules to the men's sport it is always, slower paced, less technical and less physical.

I do see a chance for 7s, as that's a niche everyone could agree on. But overall the chances of bringing women's rugby on par with men's rugby is not that big.

To be honest, I am really angry at the moment at the German public broadcaster that they show meaningless games without Germany of the women's soccer Euro, when they show nothing of other sports. And I don't see why women's rugby or soccer for that matter should be pushed more, if everybody (at least in the Uk) knows the game but less people watch the women's version.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby victorsra » Tue, 25 Jul 2017, 13:37

You'll only change womens sports the day girls in youth age have the same kind of incentive to play (to play ANY sport, not those that are already linked to women).

However, there is another important point: girls dont have famous women sports role models enough to follow and to be inspired to try a sports career. If you don't create women rugby players that are all the time on TV/internet and to market them to become the heroes for young girls, they won't grow up focused on sports. It is really easy for a boy to find a player to inspire him. For a girl it isn't. Most of all because it is more difficult to follow women sports and there is no glamour/mkt involved.

In other words, you need to invest in the youth girls rugby environment + in senior rugby promotion. And you don't even need the TVs for that, as more than ever the young generation will follow anything that is online and in the social media. There is the battlefield for womens rugby.

And then you'll need time for a new generation to grow.
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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 25 Jul 2017, 14:00

Girls have other heroes, boys can't understand. Girls tend to adore movie or music stars more than boys overall.
Maybe the majority of boys and the majority of girls have simply different interests and competitive team sports is maybe something only a minority of girls enjoy, while boys love it more.

But all in all we are going to far away from the topic ;-)
I don't think that women's rugby is surpressed in any way and in my personal experience I've never seen a more open sports society than rugby to both women's game and inclusion of other sexual preferences than being hetero. Off course there are exceptions, but overall rugby is fine.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby victorsra » Tue, 25 Jul 2017, 15:32

That's all imposed in young age. There isn't a "natural interest" for men and women on those stuff, it is socialy created. There is still clearly a different way that womens and men are raised. It is easy for a man to think it is all equal and fine. But I am a man and I see it isn't (and of course it is easier in some countries, harder in others). Broadly speaking, women don't have an easy and clear path to follow on contact sports specialy when they are young. There are many extra barriers for them than for the boys.

But yes, this discussion belongs to other threads :D
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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby iul » Tue, 25 Jul 2017, 17:03

victorsra wrote:That's all imposed in young age. There isn't a "natural interest" for men and women on those stuff, it is socialy created. There is still clearly a different way that womens and men are raised. It is easy for a man to think it is all equal and fine. But I am a man and I see it isn't (and of course it is easier in some countries, harder in others). Broadly speaking, women don't have an easy and clear path to follow on contact sports specialy when they are young. There are many extra barriers for them than for the boys.

But yes, this discussion belongs to other threads :D

That is just horse shit. We know for a fact boys and girls and have different interests and different ways of playing.

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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby victorsra » Tue, 25 Jul 2017, 18:32

Sorry, dude, but no. The day you have any knowledge on sociology, anthropology or pedagogy you say what you believe is shit.
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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 25 Jul 2017, 18:53

You guys are funny. But there are numerous girls playing soccer trying to be the next Mia Hamm, Alex Morgan, Sydney Leroux, and Carly Lloyd. Just like there are numerous girls trying to be the next Simone Biles or Shawn Johnson.

Maybe you don't have that where you're at, or maybe your female sporting culture sucks due to the cartel. I think we call that the "old white men" thing.

In the United States, girls have sporting heroes. And trust me, if a little girl is playing Rugby right now she's trying to Alev Kelter or Naya Tapper.

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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby 4N » Tue, 25 Jul 2017, 19:22

TheStroBro wrote:You guys are funny. But there are numerous girls playing soccer trying to be the next Mia Hamm, Alex Morgan, Sydney Leroux, and Carly Lloyd. Just like there are numerous girls trying to be the next Simone Biles or Shawn Johnson.

Maybe you don't have that where you're at, or maybe your female sporting culture sucks due to the cartel. I think we call that the "old white men" thing.

In the United States, girls have sporting heroes. And trust me, if a little girl is playing Rugby right now she's trying to Alev Kelter or Naya Tapper.


Women's sports in Germany are pretty big afaik.

But I tend to agree with the gist of your post. I think the Williams sisters are general athletic role models for lots of young girls too, particularly Serena.

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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby victorsra » Tue, 25 Jul 2017, 20:51

We have major sportswomen here in Brazil. But i am speaking in a broad sense. It varies a lot from country to country and from sport to sport. Tennis is a good exemple of a more equal (but to completely) sport. The major point is about contact team sports like rugby. Even women soccer is still not well developed. The American league once folded and is reslly smaller than the MLS. How is its general presence in American sports media?

The physical aspect is central. In early 20th century for exemple it was common to deny women many non contact sports we find today common for women. The reason was that the exercise would deform their bodies. Now the barrierd are smaller but still considerable specialy in those sports associate to masculinity.

The discussion is good when not based on simple denial.
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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby iul » Wed, 26 Jul 2017, 05:44

victorsra wrote:Sorry, dude, but no. The day you have any knowledge on sociology, anthropology or pedagogy you say what you believe is shit.

Why do girls choose dolls from the toy store while boys pick cars?

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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby Bogdan_DC » Wed, 26 Jul 2017, 06:08

iul wrote:
victorsra wrote:Sorry, dude, but no. The day you have any knowledge on sociology, anthropology or pedagogy you say what you believe is shit.

Why do girls choose dolls from the toy store while boys pick cars?


Not all are choosing dolls ... And do you ever watching women rugby England or New Zealand (XV not 7s) playing? Do you ever watch women fighting in MMA?I don't know if those girls ever choose dolls, pink and all this sort of stereotypes but if they do anyway doesn't matter because now they are loving crushing some bones.

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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby iul » Wed, 26 Jul 2017, 08:49

Bogdan_DC wrote:
iul wrote:
victorsra wrote:Sorry, dude, but no. The day you have any knowledge on sociology, anthropology or pedagogy you say what you believe is shit.

Why do girls choose dolls from the toy store while boys pick cars?


Not all are choosing dolls ... And do you ever watching women rugby England or New Zealand (XV not 7s) playing? Do you ever watch women fighting in MMA?I don't know if those girls ever choose dolls, pink and all this sort of stereotypes but if they do anyway doesn't matter because now they are loving crushing some bones.

We're talking about why a much larger proportion of men prefer watching sports compared to women. There isn't anything that everyone in a group does or doesn't do.

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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby Bogdan_DC » Wed, 26 Jul 2017, 10:09

iul wrote:
Bogdan_DC wrote:
iul wrote:
victorsra wrote:Sorry, dude, but no. The day you have any knowledge on sociology, anthropology or pedagogy you say what you believe is shit.

Why do girls choose dolls from the toy store while boys pick cars?


Not all are choosing dolls ... And do you ever watching women rugby England or New Zealand (XV not 7s) playing? Do you ever watch women fighting in MMA?I don't know if those girls ever choose dolls, pink and all this sort of stereotypes but if they do anyway doesn't matter because now they are loving crushing some bones.

We're talking about why a much larger proportion of men prefer watching sports compared to women. There isn't anything that everyone in a group does or doesn't do.

I answer just to your stereotype example not to the hole discussion.

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Re: Frustrated with Rugby cartel

Postby iul » Wed, 26 Jul 2017, 10:25

The stereotype is based on reality. Boys and girls, men and women have different interests naturally.

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