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Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby YamahaKiwi » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 10:09

Yeah there's no way any of those Asian teams, even HKG or Korea could be competitive with just their own players. Even in HKG and Koreas case I'd say you might get 10 to 15 local players absolute max in the squad and maybe 6-7 for starters in Singapore, Malaysia, Sri Lanka etc. But def you want some because to me the Wolfpack being made up almost totally of foregn players is a farce. The development/academy aspect of the venture would be so very important.

Two other positives of such a competition could be the opportunity to have many more PI players in this competition, which would also help their test match availability for potential matches v Wallabies & ABs etc, (I still think it's an absolute imperative that a Suva based PI team is included if SR survives or this comp takes over given the success of SR games held there in the last couple of years) and be a boost for PI rugby, and secondly for the Asian teams to act as sabbatical opportunities for Wallabies & ABs if they want to play somewhere outside Australasia while still being eligible for NT honours (infact the eligibility clause could apply for non capped players as well who say have already played 5 years for teams based in their home country).

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 10:59

YamahaKiwi wrote:Yeah there's no way any of those Asian teams, even HKG or Korea could be competitive with just their own players. Even in HKG and Koreas case I'd say you might get 10 to 15 local players absolute max in the squad and maybe 6-7 for starters in Singapore, Malaysia, Sri Lanka etc. But def you want some because to me the Wolfpack being made up almost totally of foregn players is a farce. The development/academy aspect of the venture would be so very important.

Two other positives of such a competition could be the opportunity to have many more PI players in this competition, which would also help their test match availability for potential matches v Wallabies & ABs etc, (I still think it's an absolute imperative that a Suva based PI team is included if SR survives or this comp takes over given the success of SR games held there in the last couple of years) and be a boost for PI rugby, and secondly for the Asian teams to act as sabbatical opportunities for Wallabies & ABs if they want to play somewhere outside Australasia while still being eligible for NT honours (infact the eligibility clause could apply for non capped players as well who say have already played 5 years for teams based in their home country).


What I'm hoping to see if this does become the future beyond SR that RA expands the Giteau rule to include this competition. Such as, you remain Wallabies eligible regardless of who you are playing for. Would be a good rule for NZ players as well if the NZRU heads this way.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby YamahaKiwi » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 11:20

I'm not against a few ABs players being offshore but I want them in the same competition, not in Europe. I'd even say one AB allowed in Australian teams but only giving long service here first so basically again a sabbatical option, or Giteau rule.

I think the NZRFU linking with certain clubs in Europe like Harlequins is rubbish and they'd be better off spending their time and energy in developing rugby in Asia even though it's gonna be a long haul.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 11:27

YamahaKiwi wrote:I'm not against a few ABs players being offshore but I want them in the same competition, not in Europe. I'd even say one AB allowed in Australian teams but only giving long service here first so basically again a sabbatical option, or Giteau rule.

I think the NZRFU linking with certain clubs in Europe like Harlequins is rubbish and they'd be better off spending their time and energy in developing rugby in Asia even though it's gonna be a long haul.


I agree and that's sort of what I was suggesting. Opening up the opportunity to play for whichever team you wish as long as it's in say the IPRC. Which would maintain their national eligibility while being able to experience living and playing in a different environment. Regarding the Quins agreement. Yeah, I tend to think in the long run working on developing Asia and competition within it would provide far greater fruit than this short sighted 'innovation'.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby YamahaKiwi » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 11:45

Yeah "Innovation" lol. I call it clutching at straws grrrrrr! :thumbdown: Probably one of the dumbest ideas the NZRFU has come up with. Also very bad and disrespectful from the view a foreign union is artificially manipulating someone else's league by parachuting some of its players into one club! If I was an English supporter of a rival club I'd be real pi**ed off!

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby victorsra » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 13:51

Working Class Rugger wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:He had no choice. Western Australia is the third biggest state provider of rugby talent in the nation and the local government spent tens of million in helping the Western Force. That couldn't go to waste. Part of this might be a bit of a 'screw you' to the ARU, but the fact he was seeking sanctioning so players could still be made available for the Wallabies says to me he was doing it with the games interests at heart. He could easily have just ploughed ahead with an unsanctioned league if it was all about making a quick dollar.

As for the Asian teams, most likely it will be overseas talent filling the roles, however I do think it's important to have as many local players involved as possible. Having a Toronto Wolfpack situation where its entirely foreign players is not good for development for rugby in those nations, there needs to be a mix of local and overseas talent, a pathway that says local can play professionally in their home country.


Part of the IPRC plans involve extensive development works in each nation they'll feature.


Are there details available of such development plan? Sounds beautiful but this is something that is not that simple.
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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 17:01

Thomas wrote: Western Force 2018 fixtures

May 4 vs Fiji
May 13 vs Tonga
June 9 vs Rebels
June 22 vs Crusaders
July 13 vs Samoa
August 10 vs Hong Kong
August 17 vs TBC


Nice!

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 17:02

Thomas wrote: then it dawn on me that this happens during the June internationals which makes me think Rebels and Crusader must be fielding a B Team.


Very few Rebels players will play test matches, I guess.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 17:03

YamahaKiwi wrote: I would've preferred when SR went to 18 teams a separated regular season anyway between RSA/ARG and NZ/AUS/JPN.

That would've solved a whole lot of the crap that happened the last couple of years

I would prefer this format (and to open up Asian division + PI Suva based team) and to keep RSA in SH rugby

Agree, but that ship sailed.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 17:05

YamahaKiwi wrote: why did he wait until the Force were under threat of closure before doing all this?
Why when it was obvious the Force had financial issues a few years ago did he not pipe up then?

He doesn't want to run a team, but a championship. Big difference.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 17:14

thatrugbyguy wrote:
YamahaKiwi wrote: it's entirely down to the NZRU what they choose, they've long dismissed a Trans Tasman league because they want to preserve the connection to South Africa

YamahaKiwi wrote: Plenty of NZRFU people were for going to the conference system & ditching RSA for the regular season.
Unfortunately the high performance unit faction that has a lot of influence in the NZRFU.
The ABs recent dominance over Boks on their soil [depends] on our players getting yearly, regular experience there
So they were very opposed to dropping touring RSA from SR regular season...and they won the internal fight.

We often complain that money beats rugby, but this time it was the opposite.

The best business was to expand Super Rugby, which required to completely split the Atlantic and Pacific conferences.
The best business was to reduce the inter-conference matches, and increase the importance of local rivalries.
The best business was to prevent South African teams from playing European teams.
The best business was to prevent a rival Indo-Pacific tournament from existing.

In contrast, the best for the All Blacks was to play a few ultracompetitive teams from South Africa and Australia.
The best for the All Blacks was to prevent to dillute the players between more teams.
The best for the All Blacks was to avoid New Zealand teams from playing each other home and away.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby NaBUru38 » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 17:15

victorsra wrote: Asian rugby is still years away to offer a proper competition to Force... I am still not buying the IPRC. That makes very little sense...

The Indo-Pacific tournament is Australia's National Rugby Championship but for the developing markets. It totally makes sense.
Last edited by NaBUru38 on Sat, 10 Mar 2018, 14:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 09 Mar 2018, 17:41

YamahaKiwi wrote:Yeah "Innovation" lol. I call it clutching at straws grrrrrr! :thumbdown: Probably one of the dumbest ideas the NZRFU has come up with. Also very bad and disrespectful from the view a foreign union is artificially manipulating someone else's league by parachuting some of its players into one club! If I was an English supporter of a rival club I'd be real pi**ed off!


The only real query I have over it is, how will the NZers wages be included in the salary cap? Provided the full wage the player receives (from both Quins and the NZ RFU, over the life of the contract) is included in the cap I can't really see it as a massive difference. If they only use it to have odd "marquee players" (i.e. 1 year players excluded from the cap) it really will have little impact at all.

I suppose the biggest danger is that some coaches come over on an exchange and point out to Quins CEO that that John Kingston is a massive bluffer and they get a decent coach in!

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 29 Aug 2018, 11:59

2019 details for World Series Rugby. In short:

14 week season + 3 weekends of playoffs
2 Teams from Japan (one most likely Panasonic)
New Zealand, Fiji, Singapore and Hong Kong teams possible
Not mentioned in the article but during the Forces last game was that a Western Sydney team is very likely

https://thewest.com.au/sport/western-fo ... b88916977z

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 29 Aug 2018, 12:24

Also, crowd average for the seven Western Force games was about 14,000. Hope we hear more news in the coming weeks.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Thomas » Wed, 29 Aug 2018, 12:39

There is this article from the 17/8 talking about a West Sydney expansion

https://thewest.com.au/sport/western-fo ... b88931250z

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 29 Aug 2018, 12:43

We need that team out here. Rugby barely exists west of Strathfield. Tapping into the Islander population would be a huge winner.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Raven » Wed, 29 Aug 2018, 13:24

I quite back the idea of a new League, especially with the new markets explored and development of PIs and HK franchises, but there should be a way to merge it with an established pyramid.
Super Rugby will, or better said, probably will be the most important SH competition, at least as long the New Zealand sides are in it.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby victorsra » Wed, 29 Aug 2018, 13:36

Basically a Super Rugby minor league (without any link)?
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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Tobar » Wed, 29 Aug 2018, 15:28

I have been very supportive of WSR, especially over the past few weeks. They are including quite a few "flashy" fan things that remind me of American sports (more music, interviews, fireworks, whatever). You can take some good and bad with that kind of commercialization but WSR is definitely putting out an enjoyable product for fans in a country that has gotten bored of rugby.

I'm curious to know the structure of next year's competition. This is not a pure league just yet since it's really the Western Force hosting 8 different teams for one-off exhibition matches. I'm guessing if they create the West Sydney team then they would have 2 home teams hosting teams from Super Rugby, Top League, PI national teams, etc. and then conclude with Western Force vs West Sydney team. I'd really like to see the Sunwolves participate in WSR as well, it'd be good to get them a more even match.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Raven » Wed, 29 Aug 2018, 16:31

I would imagine Sunwolves having no interest in that (at least for the time being) but maybe wanting some of their Top League teams participating, acting as "feeders" to the Sunwolves, some big teams would definitely have more competition in a WSR, and maybe with a bit of wind behind their wings might win it.

Calendar will be crucial for that to happen of course.

IMHO the big boogeyman called "relegation" would make SR a lot more attractive, or at least more competitive throughout both up and down. Scrap the conference tables that make absolutely no sense, have 12 teams in the Top division, 10 or 12 in the second one, and let the games begin. Force will want to be back for sure, can´t say the same about Southern Kings or Cheetahs, but scraping them from the Pro14 would make way to other emerging European teams/franchises...

Ahhh..... to dream...

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby victorsra » Wed, 29 Aug 2018, 16:37

Japan's Top League is very short. Ambitious teams might want a bigger calendar, therefore the WRS is interesting.

I am surprised the WSR will become a league and not a mere series of friendlies. So no more IPRC, right? It evolved to become WSR?
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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Tobar » Wed, 29 Aug 2018, 16:48

victorsra wrote:I am surprised the WSR will become a league and not a mere series of friendlies. So no more IPRC, right? It evolved to become WSR?


I get the impression that this is still a series of friendlies and not a league. Even if there is a new Australian team in the mix then I'm guessing the West Sydney team and Western Force will each play around 8 games, however all the other teams participating will just play against WS/Force. I'm making lots of assumptions here so it could really take any turn but this is my guess based off the press.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 29 Aug 2018, 17:22

They explicitly said in the article it will be a league with Forrest as the independent chairman of the board.

I wouldn't assume this is going to be a feeder league to Super Rugby. SR is so poorly run, deliberately handicapping itself in many ways, that this could easily blow past it. Certainly that's the plan.

Think of it more like the 60's AFL to the NFL.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby 4N » Wed, 29 Aug 2018, 17:25

sk 88 wrote:Think of it more like the 60's AFL to the NFL.


I can see that. Hoping for a merger.

Wonder where a NZ side would be based? New Plymouth?

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