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Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sun, 27 Aug 2017, 09:08

eal22 wrote:I would happily be proven wrong, but I would have concerns about the competitiveness of any Asian League, you would think the other teams would at least need to be at the level of the Sunwolves, can the Asian markets really support 5-7 teams of such strength?


You're assuming that these teams will be entirely staffed by local players. Alibaba have already said that they would look to sign international talent for their competition.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sun, 27 Aug 2017, 09:13

Coloradoan wrote:
NaBUru38 wrote:If I were to start a professional rugby competition in Asia-Pacific, I'd do a sevens series with rounds in Tokyo, Seoul, Mumbai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Kuala Lumpur, etc.

With just one round per city, it's much easier to attract crowds.


Starting a 7s tournament circuit with very few pre-existing identities is a recipe for disaster. There is no way to build loyalty to the teams when the "home" team plays in the home town once a year and most of the team has few ties to the city, as would be the case in such a tournament. There's a reason there is no pro 7s circuit anywhere in the world beyond the international game, where each team has a pre-existing identity that fans easily understand and can root for or against.


You'd have to find a way to turn it into a proper 'league' which is what UWS are trying to do in the US but of which I am skeptical of is succeeding. If they tried something along the 10s route it may work out better especially in relatively new markets.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby eal22 » Sun, 27 Aug 2017, 20:34

Working Class Rugger wrote:
eal22 wrote:I would happily be proven wrong, but I would have concerns about the competitiveness of any Asian League, you would think the other teams would at least need to be at the level of the Sunwolves, can the Asian markets really support 5-7 teams of such strength?


You're assuming that these teams will be entirely staffed by local players. Alibaba have already said that they would look to sign international talent for their competition.


I am not assuming these teams will be staffed by only local players. But as we have seen, the Sunwolves haven't exactly attracted top-tier talent, I am not sure how much more successful teams in an Asian League would be at recruiting, even if they did have big money. There isn't exactly an unlimited supply of tier one rugby players and with the Cheetahs and Kings moving north and the Force looking to continue, there aren't many Super Rugby players suddenly looking for work.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 28 Aug 2017, 05:01

The guy running the Force campaign is worth about $5 billion dollars, he alone could easily bankroll a new league for the next 20 years but if he was to have a consortium of Asian business partners there would be enough money to pretty much change the rugby landscape globally. Enough money to put into the grassroots for the sport in south east Asia and the western states of Australia for decades. If this idea of a Western Force and Alibaba lead Asian league gets off the ground and is proven successful then I think the possibility exists the remaining Australian SR franchises could be lured over quite easily once the Super Rugby contract expires in 2020. If that were to happen and the state unions were to jump ship to a rival competition there's the very real possibility the ARU could be dissolved and a new national union could emerge. The ARU has basically lost the support of the rugby community over here.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby NaBUru38 » Mon, 28 Aug 2017, 18:05

Coloradoan wrote:
NaBUru38 wrote:If I were to start a professional rugby competition in Asia-Pacific, I'd do a sevens series with rounds in Tokyo, Seoul, Mumbai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Kuala Lumpur, etc.

With just one round per city, it's much easier to attract crowds.


Starting a 7s tournament circuit with very few pre-existing identities is a recipe for disaster. There is no way to build loyalty to the teams when the "home" team plays in the home town once a year and most of the team has few ties to the city. There's a reason there is no pro 7s circuit anywhere in the world beyond the international game, where each team has a pre-existing identity.


Starting a new tournament with very few pre-existing identities is usually a bad idea.
But I'm not sure that it's as big of a problem in rugby sevens.
For example, there's no local team at the Dubai Sevens.

Anyway, my proposed Asia-Pacific sevens series could be national teams or nationally-branded franchises. Say, the HK Orchids could have foreign players.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Mon, 28 Aug 2017, 22:32

NaBUru38 wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:
NaBUru38 wrote:If I were to start a professional rugby competition in Asia-Pacific, I'd do a sevens series with rounds in Tokyo, Seoul, Mumbai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Kuala Lumpur, etc.

With just one round per city, it's much easier to attract crowds.


Starting a 7s tournament circuit with very few pre-existing identities is a recipe for disaster. There is no way to build loyalty to the teams when the "home" team plays in the home town once a year and most of the team has few ties to the city. There's a reason there is no pro 7s circuit anywhere in the world beyond the international game, where each team has a pre-existing identity.


Starting a new tournament with very few pre-existing identities is usually a bad idea.
But I'm not sure that it's as big of a problem in rugby sevens.
For example, there's no local team at the Dubai Sevens.

Anyway, my proposed Asia-Pacific sevens series could be national teams or nationally-branded franchises. Say, the HK Orchids could have foreign players.


It could work but it would need to be rather condensed.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Sables4EVA » Tue, 29 Aug 2017, 17:07

Supposing money is no object and supposing you negotiate that the winners play the bottom of Super Rugby groups in the East and supposing you get the best local players you could easy have a decent league.

Western Force
Tongan team
Fiji Warriors
Samoan Team
Hong Kong Team
2nd Japanese Team

Expansion Teams
Singapore
China

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby SallesNeto_BR » Tue, 29 Aug 2017, 21:14

I guess Tonga will never be a viable market. The same to Samoa.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Hinato » Wed, 30 Aug 2017, 08:51

It all depends on when in the year?

- If it's from August to January, you will not have any Japanese teams (Top League)

-If it is from February to July, possibility of a Japanese franchise (based in Osaka or Fukuoka).

For the rest:

-Hong Kong. His internationals are professional. It is conceivable to have a Hong Kong franchise.

- Malaysia. It is the rising nation of rugby union in Asia. They are going to have their professional championship. Possibility of a franchise according to the schedule. The team would be solid with a Fijian colony as usual.

- South Korea? Possibility of a franchise but the KRU should invest. Big question mark.

- the Chinese? They start from scratch. At present, not even worth thinking about.

-Singapore? Their selection is worth nothing and takes 120 points against the Japanese U20. The probability would be more to see a franchise Fiji, Samoan or Tongan play there.

- Sri Lanka? Poorly positioned geographically and their federation clearly favors 7-rugby at the expense of the XV. This also requires professionalization. Does the Sri Lankan federation have the financial means?

"It's the desert if not in Asia." So if the Western Force creates an Asian championship, we could have at best:

- Western Force

- 1 Japanese franchise (if calendar out of Top League)

- 1 Hong Kong franchise

- 1 Malaysian franchise

- 1 South Korean franchise

- 1 Pacific franchise (based in Singapore)

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby iul » Wed, 30 Aug 2017, 08:54

Hinato wrote:It all depends on when in the year?

- If it's from August to January, you will not have any Japanese teams (Top League)

-If it is from February to July, possibility of a Japanese franchise (based in Osaka or Fukuoka).

For the rest:

-Hong Kong. His internationals are professional. It is conceivable to have a Hong Kong franchise.

- Malaysia. It is the rising nation of rugby union in Asia. They are going to have their professional championship. Possibility of a franchise according to the schedule. The team would be solid with a Fijian colony as usual.

- South Korea? Possibility of a franchise but the KRU should invest. Big question mark.

- the Chinese? They start from scratch. At present, not even worth thinking about.

-Singapore? Their selection is worth nothing and takes 120 points against the Japanese U20. The probability would be more to see a franchise Fiji, Samoan or Tongan play there.

- Sri Lanka? Poorly positioned geographically and their federation clearly favors 7-rugby at the expense of the XV. This also requires professionalization. Does the Sri Lankan federation have the financial means?

"It's the desert if not in Asia." So if the Western Force creates an Asian championship, we could have at best:

- Western Force

- 1 Japanese franchise (if calendar out of Top League)

- 1 Hong Kong franchise

- 1 Malaysian franchise

- 1 South Korean franchise

- 1 Pacific franchise (based in Singapore)


It would not be inconceivable to have a team in Fiji as well, specially as they put a team in this year's NRC, plus you could have more than 1 Japanese teams.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Hinato » Wed, 30 Aug 2017, 08:57

iul wrote:
Hinato wrote:It all depends on when in the year?

- If it's from August to January, you will not have any Japanese teams (Top League)

-If it is from February to July, possibility of a Japanese franchise (based in Osaka or Fukuoka).

For the rest:

-Hong Kong. His internationals are professional. It is conceivable to have a Hong Kong franchise.

- Malaysia. It is the rising nation of rugby union in Asia. They are going to have their professional championship. Possibility of a franchise according to the schedule. The team would be solid with a Fijian colony as usual.

- South Korea? Possibility of a franchise but the KRU should invest. Big question mark.

- the Chinese? They start from scratch. At present, not even worth thinking about.

-Singapore? Their selection is worth nothing and takes 120 points against the Japanese U20. The probability would be more to see a franchise Fiji, Samoan or Tongan play there.

- Sri Lanka? Poorly positioned geographically and their federation clearly favors 7-rugby at the expense of the XV. This also requires professionalization. Does the Sri Lankan federation have the financial means?

"It's the desert if not in Asia." So if the Western Force creates an Asian championship, we could have at best:

- Western Force

- 1 Japanese franchise (if calendar out of Top League)

- 1 Hong Kong franchise

- 1 Malaysian franchise

- 1 South Korean franchise

- 1 Pacific franchise (based in Singapore)


It would not be inconceivable to have a team in Fiji as well, specially as they put a team in this year's NRC, plus you could have more than 1 Japanese teams.


1 Fijian team in addition to the one that plays in the Australian championship seems to me a lot for them, question of financial means. For the Japanese team, this is possible only from February to July. The Top League is more important and would have nothing to envy to this Asian championship.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby ihateblazers » Wed, 30 Aug 2017, 09:23

Twiggy should get in contact with the Asia Pacific Dragons. They were bidding for super rugby in the previous expansion round, they had a consortium of private backers as well.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 30 Aug 2017, 14:39

What are Malaysia's plans for going professional?

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby iul » Wed, 30 Aug 2017, 14:43

Hinato wrote:
iul wrote:
Hinato wrote:It all depends on when in the year?

- If it's from August to January, you will not have any Japanese teams (Top League)

-If it is from February to July, possibility of a Japanese franchise (based in Osaka or Fukuoka).

For the rest:

-Hong Kong. His internationals are professional. It is conceivable to have a Hong Kong franchise.

- Malaysia. It is the rising nation of rugby union in Asia. They are going to have their professional championship. Possibility of a franchise according to the schedule. The team would be solid with a Fijian colony as usual.

- South Korea? Possibility of a franchise but the KRU should invest. Big question mark.

- the Chinese? They start from scratch. At present, not even worth thinking about.

-Singapore? Their selection is worth nothing and takes 120 points against the Japanese U20. The probability would be more to see a franchise Fiji, Samoan or Tongan play there.

- Sri Lanka? Poorly positioned geographically and their federation clearly favors 7-rugby at the expense of the XV. This also requires professionalization. Does the Sri Lankan federation have the financial means?

"It's the desert if not in Asia." So if the Western Force creates an Asian championship, we could have at best:

- Western Force

- 1 Japanese franchise (if calendar out of Top League)

- 1 Hong Kong franchise

- 1 Malaysian franchise

- 1 South Korean franchise

- 1 Pacific franchise (based in Singapore)


It would not be inconceivable to have a team in Fiji as well, specially as they put a team in this year's NRC, plus you could have more than 1 Japanese teams.


1 Fijian team in addition to the one that plays in the Australian championship seems to me a lot for them, question of financial means. For the Japanese team, this is possible only from February to July. The Top League is more important and would have nothing to envy to this Asian championship.

This competition would be at a higher level than the Australian championship, so the Fijian team would likely move to the Asian competition instead of having a team in two competitions.
February to July is plenty of time to run the competition.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby RugInt » Sat, 02 Sep 2017, 11:31

Hobart has no notable rugby presence.


Actually 6 clubs in Hobart, 2 in Launceston, 1 in Burnie and my team here in Devonport. Perhaps not notable but definitely a presence. :roll: The state side would struggle against any first grade Melbourne club side so not really an option at present. Solid South African, New Zealand and Fijian community in all clubs with a world mix in the Australian Maritime College team in Launceston (The Vikings!)

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby victorsra » Sat, 02 Sep 2017, 14:10

The major problem is that you cant compete against the Force with a team made up of locals in those Asian countries... Is it possible for Forrest to invest also in Adelaide or Darwin?
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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby gibbs » Mon, 04 Sep 2017, 10:09

NaBUru38 wrote:If I were to start a professional rugby competition in Asia-Pacific, I'd do a sevens series with rounds in Tokyo, Seoul, Mumbai, Singapore, Hong Kong, Kuala Lumpur, etc.

With just one round per city, it's much easier to attract crowds.


Mumbai ??!!? Indians only flock to watch Cricket, No infrastructure except for the Bombay Gymkhana and that hardly a Rugby field

You'd be lucky to get 100 locals, Huge populations doesn't necessarily mean large following

Colombo you get 10 to 20K just for high school games, Super 7's is already a well established pro series attracting cream of tier 2 players from Kenya and the South Pacific even a few tier 1 pro's

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby gibbs » Mon, 04 Sep 2017, 10:12

victorsra wrote:The major problem is that you cant compete against the Force with a team made up of locals in those Asian countries... Is it possible for Forrest to invest also in Adelaide or Darwin?


Melbourne has a large Sri Lankan community that actively engage in regular city league Rugby, They also constitute to a significant membership of the Rebels franchise.. But no so much in Perth unfortunately.. Perth does have a issue with being middle of nowhere to begin with, Although there is a large South African community based there, One time the largest White South Africans outside the country itself, Maybe thats a resource Forrest can look into

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 04 Sep 2017, 11:25

Any news on Western Force's appeal?

Must be due a decision soon.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Mon, 04 Sep 2017, 12:31

sk 88 wrote:Any news on Western Force's appeal?

Must be due a decision soon.


Judgement is scheduled for tomorrow at 10am AEST.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby SallesNeto_BR » Tue, 05 Sep 2017, 01:48

| RUGBYWA STATEMENT |
We are disappointed to announce that RugbyWA has been unsuccessful in appealing the arbitration decision in the Supreme Court of New South Wales allowing the ARU to terminate the Alliance Agreement.
This now means the ARU have the ability to remove the Western Force from the Super Rugby competition.
RugbyWA will evaluate its legal options and consider grounds to seek leave to appeal to the NSW Court of Appeal in the coming days. RugbyWA also welcome the proposed Senate inquiry into the conduct of the ARU.

Full news: https://www.rugbywa.asn.au/news/rugbywa-statement-2/

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 05 Sep 2017, 01:54

Andrew Forrest is to set up a rival Asian competition immediately. 6 teams initially. Things could get ugly for rugby in Australia.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 05 Sep 2017, 02:06

Talks already underway with other states and nations, look for South Australia to join if this comes together. Looks like this may include a Pacific team also. My guess:

Western Force
South Australia
NSW Country
Asia Pacific Dragons
Hong Kong Team
Japanese Team

It's going to be in the best interests of the ARU to sanction this league, whatever shape it takes. Forrest is apparently worth over $10 Billion dollars and can purchase all the best Super Rugby talent for the next 20 years just to spite the ARU. That's if he chooses to go at it alone, if he partners with other billionaires in Asia/Australia there's no way Super Rugby can be sustained long term. On top of that he's friends with one of the free to air TV owners down here, and local rugby hasn't been on free to air TV in over 15 years. The ARU may long live to regret this decision.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Tue, 05 Sep 2017, 02:45

thatrugbyguy wrote:Talks already underway with other states and nations, look for South Australia to join if this comes together. Looks like this may include a Pacific team also. My guess:

Western Force
South Australia
NSW Country
Asia Pacific Dragons
Hong Kong Team
Japanese Team

It's going to be in the best interests of the ARU to sanction this league, whatever shape it takes. Forrest is apparently worth over $10 Billion dollars and can purchase all the best Super Rugby talent for the next 20 years just to spite the ARU. That's if he chooses to go at it alone, if he partners with other billionaires in Asia/Australia there's no way Super Rugby can be sustained long term. On top of that he's friends with one of the free to air TV owners down here, and local rugby hasn't been on free to air TV in over 15 years. The ARU may long live to regret this decision.


Where did you get South Australia from?

If an NSW team is to become involved I'm willing to bet it will be the Rams. Eastwood lead by ARU detractor Brett Papworth recently bought the Rams licence in the NRC and have undergone a re-branding alongside an entirely new playing strip.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 05 Sep 2017, 03:03

Because it's going to be a western league and SA would be a natural fit. I know the rugby scene isn't big there, but if they are looking to get this thing moving ASAP Forrest is probably going to be looking for the states with the fewest potential sanctioning issues. The Rams would have to breakaway from the ARU to join this.

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