Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Posts: 695
Joined: Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 17:09
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Tobar » Wed, 29 Aug 2018, 19:49

sk 88 wrote:They explicitly said in the article it will be a league with Forrest as the independent chairman of the board.

I wouldn't assume this is going to be a feeder league to Super Rugby. SR is so poorly run, deliberately handicapping itself in many ways, that this could easily blow past it. Certainly that's the plan.

Think of it more like the 60's AFL to the NFL.


Ah, I see, 14 home and away games. very ambitious and I'm not sure how they can make that work.

I can definitely see this as a good comparison to AFL. For those unaware, it was a new competitive league to the NFL in the 60s. It never ended up posing a genuine threat to the NFL but was starting to poach lots of talent and fans. Eventually the two merged (AFL was absorbed by the NFL really) and this resulted in a more stable and commercially successful league as well as some new rules changes that benefitted the league. Here's a Wikipedia article about the AFL (there were a few).

I can definitely see WSR lasting for a while and disrupting SH rugby, specifically in Australia, and then eventually merging somehow with Super Rugby or forcing Super Rugby to adapt.

Posts: 4177
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 02:44
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 29 Aug 2018, 22:00

The IPRC has essentially evolved into WSR. Relegation is not happening folks, keep your crazy European ideas out of our sporting leagues, lol. Seriously though, I've been pretty impressed at the success of this 'trail', it shows that people in Western Australia still love the sport, and the news of a Western Sydney team is very much welcome to my ears. This isn't suppose to be a lower league, it's suppose to be a top level competition. It won't surprise me in the long run if the Aussie SR teams jump ship eventually if it proves to be a success. The have to get rid of that stupid 'power try' rule, there's only been one scored in all 8 games.

Posts: 44
Joined: Sun, 11 Mar 2018, 17:39
National Flag:
IrelandIreland

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Grayday88 » Wed, 29 Aug 2018, 22:42

This might actually suit Australia in the long run Super Rugby is dying and World series Rugby offers a new challenge and is financed by an independent billionaire. Out of curiosity I read about a Kiwi team for World Series Rugby where will they be based

Posts: 695
Joined: Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 17:09
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Tobar » Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 01:17

Completely agreed on the super try. It’s conpletely arbitrary if you happen to get the ball in your own half.

If Australia sticks to their own national league and one day leave Super Rugby, what do you suppose will happen with NZ, SA and ARG? Will they just play their domestic competitions? Would NZ even have enough teams for it to be a viable season? I would still very much like a Champions Cup for SH which would be basically Suoer Rugby but fewer games so the travel isn’t as tough.

Posts: 125
Joined: Wed, 28 Oct 2015, 04:30
National Flag:
New ZealandNew Zealand

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby nick511 » Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 01:28

Grayday88 wrote:This might actually suit Australia in the long run Super Rugby is dying and World series Rugby offers a new challenge and is financed by an independent billionaire. Out of curiosity I read about a Kiwi team for World Series Rugby where will they be based


Well for the NZ team I'd say it would probably be located in a city with out regular Super Rugby games (obviously to avoid clashes) in the North Island like Rotorua, Napier, Whangarei or Palmerston North (I would have said New Plymouth but their stadium is screwed). North Habour stadium is an option but Auckland struggles to get enough people to Blues matches...

But all the players from the provinces that don't make Super Rugby have their club seasons during that time all over the country.

Posts: 1242
Joined: Sun, 18 May 2014, 13:27
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 03:02

thatrugbyguy wrote:The IPRC has essentially evolved into WSR. Relegation is not happening folks, keep your crazy European ideas out of our sporting leagues, lol. Seriously though, I've been pretty impressed at the success of this 'trail', it shows that people in Western Australia still love the sport, and the news of a Western Sydney team is very much welcome to my ears. This isn't suppose to be a lower league, it's suppose to be a top level competition. It won't surprise me in the long run if the Aussie SR teams jump ship eventually if it proves to be a success. The have to get rid of that stupid 'power try' rule, there's only been one scored in all 8 games.



I don't see the issue people have with the 'power try' as it has only occurred just the one time in 8 games. That suggests to me that it will likely be a rare enough of an event that it really isn't much of an issue or deciding factor in any game. Regarding the WS team. If it's done right. I'd be all for it and would actively support it. But by being done right I mean engage with the region beyond mere piecemeal effort and look to set up real relationships with the various clubs from the Hills district down to the Wollondilly and even as far west as the Central West region.

I don't get this idea that this is set to be a minor league structure. They've already stated that there will be active recruitment of talent to ensure that it's of equivalent standard to current established professional leagues and they intend for it to be the equal of SR etc. They've even stated that there will be no salary cap restrictions in place meaning that if the money is there and they want the talent they can place a more than attractive enough offer. I also tend to agree that if it does become successful that we'll likely see more Aus teams jump across in time.

Posts: 1242
Joined: Sun, 18 May 2014, 13:27
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 03:03

nick511 wrote:
Grayday88 wrote:This might actually suit Australia in the long run Super Rugby is dying and World series Rugby offers a new challenge and is financed by an independent billionaire. Out of curiosity I read about a Kiwi team for World Series Rugby where will they be based


Well for the NZ team I'd say it would probably be located in a city with out regular Super Rugby games (obviously to avoid clashes) in the North Island like Rotorua, Napier, Whangarei or Palmerston North (I would have said New Plymouth but their stadium is screwed). North Habour stadium is an option but Auckland struggles to get enough people to Blues matches...

But all the players from the provinces that don't make Super Rugby have their club seasons during that time all over the country.


North Harbour has been mentioned on a number of occasions.

Posts: 1242
Joined: Sun, 18 May 2014, 13:27
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 03:07

Tobar wrote:Completely agreed on the super try. It’s conpletely arbitrary if you happen to get the ball in your own half.

If Australia sticks to their own national league and one day leave Super Rugby, what do you suppose will happen with NZ, SA and ARG? Will they just play their domestic competitions? Would NZ even have enough teams for it to be a viable season? I would still very much like a Champions Cup for SH which would be basically Suoer Rugby but fewer games so the travel isn’t as tough.


They'll likely play among themselves. Or we'll see SA go north which will strand NZ. Either way it will be a case of poor planning. Something that has frustrated the holy hell out of me over the years has been the alliances complete unwillingness or pig headed arrogance in their complete disregard for any true attempt to develop the largest market in its constituency. That being Australia. It's single largest economy with a sports market place more than willing to pay good money for a product is saw value in. Madness.

Posts: 4177
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 02:44
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 04:14

Tobar wrote:Completely agreed on the super try. It’s conpletely arbitrary if you happen to get the ball in your own half.

If Australia sticks to their own national league and one day leave Super Rugby, what do you suppose will happen with NZ, SA and ARG? Will they just play their domestic competitions? Would NZ even have enough teams for it to be a viable season? I would still very much like a Champions Cup for SH which would be basically Super Rugby but fewer games so the travel isn’t as tough.


Australia's teams leaving along with the Sunwolves to WSR would mean 10 team league for NZ, SA, and ARG. 10 game regular season (9 games against all opposition + 1 team drawn randomly) and at least 2 weekends for playoffs, and one bye weekend for each team, which is more or less the same number of weeks the old Super 12 use to be. So your leagues will like this:

WSR - Force, Brumbies, Waratahs, Rebels, Reds, West Sydney, Panasonic, Sunwolves, North Harbour, Fiji Drua, Hong Kong, Asia Pacific Dragons
SR - Blues, Highlanders, Crusaders, Chiefs, Hurricanes, Stormers, Lions, Bulls, Sharks, Jaguares

You could then do a Champions League style tournament at the end of each competition, top four from each league, 2 pools, and play it all at one neutral venue over 4 weekends to crown a Southern Hemisphere champion. That would mean a maximum of 17 games for the club season for any one team, more or less in line with Super Rugby right now. Perth would actually be the perfect location to host such a competition because it's in a reasonably favourable timezone for everybody. 4pm kick off for the final in Perth would be 6pm in Sydney, 8pm in NZ, and 10am in South Africa.

Posts: 1242
Joined: Sun, 18 May 2014, 13:27
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 09:16

thatrugbyguy wrote:
Tobar wrote:Completely agreed on the super try. It’s conpletely arbitrary if you happen to get the ball in your own half.

If Australia sticks to their own national league and one day leave Super Rugby, what do you suppose will happen with NZ, SA and ARG? Will they just play their domestic competitions? Would NZ even have enough teams for it to be a viable season? I would still very much like a Champions Cup for SH which would be basically Super Rugby but fewer games so the travel isn’t as tough.


Australia's teams leaving along with the Sunwolves to WSR would mean 10 team league for NZ, SA, and ARG. 10 game regular season (9 games against all opposition + 1 team drawn randomly) and at least 2 weekends for playoffs, and one bye weekend for each team, which is more or less the same number of weeks the old Super 12 use to be. So your leagues will like this:

WSR - Force, Brumbies, Waratahs, Rebels, Reds, West Sydney, Panasonic, Sunwolves, North Harbour, Fiji Drua, Hong Kong, Asia Pacific Dragons
SR - Blues, Highlanders, Crusaders, Chiefs, Hurricanes, Stormers, Lions, Bulls, Sharks, Jaguares

You could then do a Champions League style tournament at the end of each competition, top four from each league, 2 pools, and play it all at one neutral venue over 4 weekends to crown a Southern Hemisphere champion. That would mean a maximum of 17 games for the club season for any one team, more or less in line with Super Rugby right now. Perth would actually be the perfect location to host such a competition because it's in a reasonably favourable timezone for everybody. 4pm kick off for the final in Perth would be 6pm in Sydney, 8pm in NZ, and 10am in South Africa.


It won't be the Sunwolves. The JRFU have pretty much stated that they will be looking to disband the Sunwolves post RWC in favour of a existing corporate team. But that would be an interesting set up. And would allow for a champions league style competition in the post season.

Posts: 4177
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 02:44
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 10:20

Probably Suntory then.

User avatar
Posts: 2123
Joined: Wed, 30 Apr 2014, 16:57

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby 4N » Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 11:26

I think Argentina would get a second team in the above scenario. They are already laying the foundation for a second pro squad via Argentina XV and potentially the Currie Cup.

Posts: 695
Joined: Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 17:09
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Tobar » Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 11:32

Where did you hear that they are disbanding the Sunwolves? They’re going to replace them with another Top League team?

Posts: 897
Joined: Tue, 27 May 2014, 20:40
Location: Europe
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Thomas » Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 12:02

Tobar wrote:
sk 88 wrote:They explicitly said in the article it will be a league with Forrest as the independent chairman of the board.

I wouldn't assume this is going to be a feeder league to Super Rugby. SR is so poorly run, deliberately handicapping itself in many ways, that this could easily blow past it. Certainly that's the plan.

Think of it more like the 60's AFL to the NFL.


Ah, I see, 14 home and away games. very ambitious and I'm not sure how they can make that work.

I can definitely see this as a good comparison to AFL. For those unaware, it was a new competitive league to the NFL in the 60s. It never ended up posing a genuine threat to the NFL but was starting to poach lots of talent and fans. Eventually the two merged (AFL was absorbed by the NFL really) and this resulted in a more stable and commercially successful league as well as some new rules changes that benefitted the league. Here's a Wikipedia article about the AFL (there were a few).

I can definitely see WSR lasting for a while and disrupting SH rugby, specifically in Australia, and then eventually merging somehow with Super Rugby or forcing Super Rugby to adapt.


Interesting comparisons, I was thinking USFL the upstart of the 80s that force NFL to change the way it did things. Granted it lasted only 3 - 4 seasons but they had some good ideas. WSR reminds me of that. AFL was more established sides and personnel and lasted 10 years.

Posts: 695
Joined: Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 17:09
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Tobar » Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 12:05

There’s a similar discussion on Reddit about this - the topic is about SA potentially joining NH rugby instead so some people are talking about potential league options.

https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/com ... h=c44bef2c

And someone put this Google sheet together about SH rugby. Kinda interesting, but need to look it over more on my desktop.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... c/htmlview

Posts: 695
Joined: Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 17:09
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Tobar » Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 12:07

Thomas wrote:
Tobar wrote:
sk 88 wrote:They explicitly said in the article it will be a league with Forrest as the independent chairman of the board.

I wouldn't assume this is going to be a feeder league to Super Rugby. SR is so poorly run, deliberately handicapping itself in many ways, that this could easily blow past it. Certainly that's the plan.

Think of it more like the 60's AFL to the NFL.


Ah, I see, 14 home and away games. very ambitious and I'm not sure how they can make that work.

I can definitely see this as a good comparison to AFL. For those unaware, it was a new competitive league to the NFL in the 60s. It never ended up posing a genuine threat to the NFL but was starting to poach lots of talent and fans. Eventually the two merged (AFL was absorbed by the NFL really) and this resulted in a more stable and commercially successful league as well as some new rules changes that benefitted the league. Here's a Wikipedia article about the AFL (there were a few).

I can definitely see WSR lasting for a while and disrupting SH rugby, specifically in Australia, and then eventually merging somehow with Super Rugby or forcing Super Rugby to adapt.


Interesting comparisons, I was thinking USFL the upstart of the 80s that force NFL to change the way it did things. Granted it lasted only 3 - 4 seasons but they had some good ideas. WSR reminds me of that. AFL was more established sides and personnel and lasted 10 years.


USFL could be another good comparison, there really won’t be one that’s a perfect fit especially because WSR has only been around for 1 season. But the AFL definitely had a bigger impact and the two leagues “merged” which could end up happening with Aus/NZ rugby one day.

Posts: 1242
Joined: Sun, 18 May 2014, 13:27
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 12:16

Tobar wrote:Where did you hear that they are disbanding the Sunwolves? They’re going to replace them with another Top League team?


Twitter. Apparently running the Sunwolves is too costly for them long term.

Posts: 1242
Joined: Sun, 18 May 2014, 13:27
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 12:19

Tobar wrote:There’s a similar discussion on Reddit about this - the topic is about SA potentially joining NH rugby instead so some people are talking about potential league options.

https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/com ... h=c44bef2c

And someone put this Google sheet together about SH rugby. Kinda interesting, but need to look it over more on my desktop.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... c/htmlview


Apparently the Sharks are pretty keen on the move north. I honestly think this is still a possibility in the short to medium term.

User avatar
Posts: 2050
Joined: Tue, 15 Apr 2014, 18:36
National Flag:
RomaniaRomania

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby iul » Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 13:16

It's kind if weird how little faith the South Africans have in themselves. They have the biggest TV deal both in SR and in Pro14, yet they're scared to go at it alone and keep putting their teams in these multinational competitions. Why not get rid of the SR sides completely and make the Currie Cup their main competition and make it home and away.

Posts: 4211
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby victorsra » Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 13:27

Working Class Rugger wrote:
Tobar wrote:There’s a similar discussion on Reddit about this - the topic is about SA potentially joining NH rugby instead so some people are talking about potential league options.

https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/com ... h=c44bef2c

And someone put this Google sheet together about SH rugby. Kinda interesting, but need to look it over more on my desktop.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... c/htmlview


Apparently the Sharks are pretty keen on the move north. I honestly think this is still a possibility in the short to medium term.


If PRO14 takes two more SA teams from SR I can't see a way to keep the last 2 SAs in SR...
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 2663
Joined: Tue, 06 Oct 2015, 22:54
National Flag:
SpainSpain

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 13:40

iul wrote:It's kind if weird how little faith the South Africans have in themselves. They have the biggest TV deal both in SR and in Pro14, yet they're scared to go at it alone and keep putting their teams in these multinational competitions. Why not get rid of the SR sides completely and make the Currie Cup their main competition and make it home and away.

Probably because of how fragile their economy is.

Posts: 695
Joined: Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 17:09
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Tobar » Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 14:17

victorsra wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
Tobar wrote:There’s a similar discussion on Reddit about this - the topic is about SA potentially joining NH rugby instead so some people are talking about potential league options.

https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/com ... h=c44bef2c

And someone put this Google sheet together about SH rugby. Kinda interesting, but need to look it over more on my desktop.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... c/htmlview


Apparently the Sharks are pretty keen on the move north. I honestly think this is still a possibility in the short to medium term.


If PRO14 takes two more SA teams from SR I can't see a way to keep the last 2 SAs in SR...


Someone mentioned (on that thread) that it could be the Griquas and the Pumas.

This is an interesting time also because South Africa is also planning to cut the amount of professional players in half as a way to save money on unnecessary costs. This article goes over some of the changes but here's the most important part:
According to president Mark Alexander, the new system will aim to reduce the number of professional players in the country from around 990 to around 460.

It means that the major franchises will only be able to contract between 40-50 players per season.

Any surplus players who are not contracted will then be placed into the draft system and used whenever they are needed.

Posts: 1798
Joined: Sun, 20 Apr 2014, 16:57
Location: Leicester
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby sk 88 » Thu, 30 Aug 2018, 14:45

Thomas wrote:
Interesting comparisons, I was thinking USFL the upstart of the 80s that force NFL to change the way it did things. Granted it lasted only 3 - 4 seasons but they had some good ideas. WSR reminds me of that. AFL was more established sides and personnel and lasted 10 years.


The AFL teams only appear more established because they have gone on to be successful, none of the teams existed before its inaugural season. It was unarguably more successful and perhaps USFL is a better comparison but not, at least, for the point I was trying to make!

Posts: 4177
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 02:44
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 31 Aug 2018, 00:12

iul wrote:It's kind if weird how little faith the South Africans have in themselves. They have the biggest TV deal both in SR and in Pro14, yet they're scared to go at it alone and keep putting their teams in these multinational competitions. Why not get rid of the SR sides completely and make the Currie Cup their main competition and make it home and away.


The SARU and NZRU are under the mistaken impression they still need each other. You could make the argument it was mutually beneficial for their domestic teams to play each other in the past when both nations were frequently 1 and 2 in the world, the problem is South Africa are nowhere near being the best rugby nation any more, and they aren't getting any better. I think the only reason the NZRU persists with the relationship is for historical reasons, not for any benefit to current and future All Blacks.

Posts: 1234
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 31 Aug 2018, 04:17

thatrugbyguy wrote:
iul wrote:It's kind if weird how little faith the South Africans have in themselves. They have the biggest TV deal both in SR and in Pro14, yet they're scared to go at it alone and keep putting their teams in these multinational competitions. Why not get rid of the SR sides completely and make the Currie Cup their main competition and make it home and away.


The SARU and NZRU are under the mistaken impression they still need each other. You could make the argument it was mutually beneficial for their domestic teams to play each other in the past when both nations were frequently 1 and 2 in the world, the problem is South Africa are nowhere near being the best rugby nation any more, and they aren't getting any better. I think the only reason the NZRU persists with the relationship is for historical reasons, not for any benefit to current and future All Blacks.

Eventually professionalism in the Southern Hemisphere will collapse unless you start filling the stadiums.

PreviousNext

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 8 guests