Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Posts: 5876
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby victorsra » Fri, 15 Nov 2019, 13:13

In Global Rapid Rugby.

Krasnoyarsk - Shanghai (3570 km) - direct
Krasnoyarsk - Hong Kong (4160 km) - direct
Krasnoyarsk - Kuala Lumpur (6700 km) - 1 transfer
Krasnoyarsk - Singapore (6750 km) - 1 transfer

In Russian Premier Liga

Krasnoyarsk - Novokuznetsk (750 km) - train
Krasnoyarsk - Moscow (3300 km) - direct
Krasnoyarsk - Kazan (4100 km) - 1 transfer
Krasnoyarsk - Penza (3900 km) - 1 transfer
Krasnoyarsk - Taganrog (4400 km) - 1 transfer + bus
Krasnoyarsk - Krasnodar (4500 km) - 1 transfer

In European competition, a complicated scheme. Three blocks of games:

1. Krasnoyarsk - Moscow - Krasnodar - Anapa (camp) - Krasnodar (two home matches) - Moscow - Krasnoyarsk. The total distance of 9800 km and several transfers.
2. Krasnoyarsk - Moscow - Krasnodar - Anapa (camp) - Krasnodar (home match) - Moscow - Toulouse - Castres (away match) - Toulouse - Moscow - Krasnoyarsk. The total distance of 15,700 km and several transfers.
3. Krasnoyarsk - Moscow - Sochi (camp) - Moscow - Birmingham - Worcester (away match) - Newport (away match) - Birmingham - Moscow - Krasnoyarsk. The total distance of 15,000 km and several transfers.


Distances are irrelevant. The only thing thast matters is how many flights, how long they take (including connections) and their cost. If you'll pay more to go to Suva, Apia or Perth (that are almost half of the league... 3 of ther current 7) than to Europe, you need to question how viable would it be.

Of course you could help with the schedule and make the Siberian team play all away matches in South Pacific+Australia in a row (like a month touring), but this is an experimental league that nobody know how viable would be - specially when Twiggy realises the league can't depend on his charity. Russians can find someone to pay for their franchises? Yes, but the others need to visit Krasnoyarsk too and will question if this worths.

I respect opinion of any person, even an alternatively gifted person like you.
I just wrote that received information about negotiations of Krasnoyarsk clubs in Asia.
If you consider them idiots or want to tell them about geography, you can write to them in Krasnoyarsk.
I ready to provide you with contacts ...


You never do.

In rugby's world we are all seeing many many many propositions of all sorts and most of them are leading to nowhere. Everybody trying shortcuts that not usualy are good options. Russia has a professional. What USA and Japan are doing (focusing on their own leagues) could be a more reasonable solution, while a small tournament between those champions could also be great.

Maybe the best and more logical for Russia would be this. If European Cartel Nations are really harming the European cup competitions, maybe the solution could be a small cup between MLR, Origin 12, Russian league champions, like the old Super Powers Cup or something, with a host city.

Those ventures crossing continents with 20-like travels are not the best strategy if you are able to have your own pro league.
Last edited by victorsra on Fri, 15 Nov 2019, 13:26, edited 3 times in total.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 866
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby STMKY » Fri, 15 Nov 2019, 13:19

RugbyLiebe wrote:Where did you get those direct connections to Shanghai and HK from? Aeroflots homepage and press release ist only listing Beijing.


Did you read my first comment and link? I repeat. Aeroflot makes Krasnoyarsk Airport a hub between Europe and Asia. From January 2020, they will begin to open new direct flights from Krasnoyarsk to Hong Kong, Shanghai and other cities in Southeast Asia. They want Asians to fly to Europe with a change in Krasnoyarsk. It should be cheaper than flying from Asia to Europe on large long-haul aircraft.

Posts: 866
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby STMKY » Fri, 15 Nov 2019, 13:27

victorsra wrote:
Of course you could help with the schedule and make the Siberian team play all away matches in South Pacific+Australia in a row (like a month touring), but this is an experimental league that nobody know how viable would be - specially when Twiggy realises the league can't depend on his charity. Russians can find someone to pay for their franchises? Yes, but the others need to visit Krasnoyarsk too and will question if this worths.


Not franchises, but clubs. They have good budgets of several million dollars. Not all Rapid teams have such budgets. For them, participating in the GRR will be cheaper than in the European Challenge Cup. Most likely, flying to Oceania and Australia will only be in the playoffs. Two conferences are planned to expand the tournament. Therefore, one trip per year to Perth or to the islands is an excellent experience. For other teams, it’s also not a problem to fly to Krasnoyarsk. From Hong Kong and Shanghai 5-6 hours to Krasnoyarsk. Aeroflot plans many flights with small planes for 100-150 seats, so that it would be convenient to make transfers to Europe.

Posts: 5876
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby victorsra » Fri, 15 Nov 2019, 13:31

STMKY wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:Where did you get those direct connections to Shanghai and HK from? Aeroflots homepage and press release ist only listing Beijing.


Did you read my first comment and link? I repeat. Aeroflot makes Krasnoyarsk Airport a hub between Europe and Asia. From January 2020, they will begin to open new direct flights from Krasnoyarsk to Hong Kong, Shanghai and other cities in Southeast Asia. They want Asians to fly to Europe with a change in Krasnoyarsk. It should be cheaper than flying from Asia to Europe on large long-haul aircraft.


Not necessarily. if Krasnoyarsk is in the middle, both ways could cost similarly. What really helps is the time zone.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 5876
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby victorsra » Fri, 15 Nov 2019, 13:34

STMKY wrote:
victorsra wrote:
Of course you could help with the schedule and make the Siberian team play all away matches in South Pacific+Australia in a row (like a month touring), but this is an experimental league that nobody know how viable would be - specially when Twiggy realises the league can't depend on his charity. Russians can find someone to pay for their franchises? Yes, but the others need to visit Krasnoyarsk too and will question if this worths.


Not franchises, but clubs. They have good budgets of several million dollars. Not all Rapid teams have such budgets. For them, participating in the GRR will be cheaper than in the European Challenge Cup. Most likely, flying to Oceania and Australia will only be in the playoffs. Two conferences are planned to expand the tournament. Therefore, one trip per year to Perth or to the islands is an excellent experience. For other teams, it’s also not a problem to fly to Krasnoyarsk. From Hong Kong and Shanghai 5-6 hours to Krasnoyarsk. Aeroflot plans many flights with small planes for 100-150 seats, so that it would be convenient to make transfers to Europe.


I really doubt a small 8 teams league would do conferences. 6-rounds in a groups phase is not worth to keep professional rugby nowhere. The league itself would be reduced to something not interesting. You need at least around 12 rounds for each team to make it the premier professional competition for Western Force, Hong Kong, Fiji... that's why they are creating this in the first place. Force must play everybody, otherwise it is worthless the league. It is NOT a Challenge Cup-like competition. And totaly experimental. There aren't much more cities that are safe/lucid bets for expansion in a short term. Rugby people love to suggest unrealistic places for professional teams.

BTW, I bet SANZAAR will regret soon about last decisions, now they have new people in charge. And don't be surprised if Force goes back to SR and gives up from this, while HK could find room in Japan's Origin 12 and the others are considered unviable soon.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 866
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby STMKY » Fri, 15 Nov 2019, 13:40

victorsra wrote:
I really doubt a small 8 teams league would do conferences. 6-rounds in a groups phase is not worth to keep professional rugby nowhere. The league itself would be reduced to something not interesting. You need at least around 12 rounds for each team to make it the premier professional competition for Western Force, Hong Kong, Fiji... that's why they are creating this in the first place. Force must play everybody, otherwise it is worthless the league. It is NOT a Challenge Cup-like competition. And totaly experimental. There aren't much more cities that are safe/lucid bets for expansion in a short term. Rugby people love to suggest unrealistic places for professional teams.

BTW, I bet SANZAAR will regret soon about last decisions, now they have new people in charge. And don't be surprised if Force goes back to SR and gives up from this.

Why 8? Not only Krasnoyarsk clubs want to play there. 6 + Enisei-STM + Krasny Yar + Singapore + Hawaii (?) + Japanese team (?) + Korean team (?) + Australian team (?) ... They plan to expand especially to new Asian markets. As their new director said. And Russia is also a new Asian market.

Posts: 866
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby STMKY » Fri, 15 Nov 2019, 13:45

You forget that for Krasnoyarsk clubs closes the way to Europe. At the Russian Championship they have weak opponents. Moreover, the distances there are comparable with Hong Kong and Shanghai. But the calendar is worse. If you have a choice between two tournaments with comparable costs, you need to play in the one that is stronger. This is logical. Otherwise, you will degrade. GRR only to the benefit of all Russian rugby.

Posts: 5876
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby victorsra » Fri, 15 Nov 2019, 13:47

There won't be a Japanese team. They are planning a new league.

There won't be a Korean team, rugby is too small there - and definitly wiser to look first to the Japanese league.

There won't be a Hawaiian team, it is not part of USA Rugby's vision and probably not viable in terms of public.

And Australia is another question. Why would be money and market for new teams while SR teams are struggling? Force is an exception (Twiggy).

Singapore is already in. And be ready for nobody watching it.

It is a big load of doubtful markets for rugby. People love to create places that rugby is not viable as "solutions".

Probably cheaper and better in a long term to make the rest of Russian league stronger. Maybe switching for a franchises central model.
Last edited by victorsra on Fri, 15 Nov 2019, 14:31, edited 1 time in total.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 866
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby STMKY » Fri, 15 Nov 2019, 14:15

Total Scopticism. Let's see how this league will look in a year. And you will be surprised. ;)

Posts: 5876
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby victorsra » Fri, 15 Nov 2019, 14:20

Really? So tell me why Japan would enter it while they plan their new league (that you probably saw all the discussion around it) or where is the interest from other Australian investor or Koreans?

This league can thrive, but let's not be naive about those megalomaniac projects that every fucking year appear in rugby's world and lead to nowhere.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

User avatar
Posts: 1995
Joined: Thu, 26 Jun 2014, 05:56
Location: Zemo Vera, Tbilissi, GEORGIA

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Fri, 15 Nov 2019, 14:53

... cause they play by different rules = better rugby

Posts: 866
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby STMKY » Fri, 15 Nov 2019, 15:28

I do not claim 100% about the Japanese team. But there is a possibility. They can have their own pro league. And two franchises in Super Rugby and Rapid Rugby. The same goes for the rest. If Hong Kong added 10 foreigners and plays in Rapid. Why can't Koreans do either? For them, this is a new level of rugby.
Could you believe 3 years ago in projects like Valke + Malaysia and Bay of Plenty + China? And the participation of Hong Kong and Singapore in the same tournament with Western Force?
And could anyone in Europe believe that two clubs from Siberia will play in the EPCR tournaments?

Posts: 5876
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby victorsra » Fri, 15 Nov 2019, 15:42

STMKY wrote:I do not claim 100% about the Japanese team. But there is a possibility. They can have their own pro league. And two franchises in Super Rugby and Rapid Rugby. The same goes for the rest. If Hong Kong added 10 foreigners and plays in Rapid. Why can't Koreans do either? For them, this is a new level of rugby.
Could you believe 3 years ago in projects like Valke + Malaysia and Bay of Plenty + China? And the participation of Hong Kong and Singapore in the same tournament with Western Force?
And could anyone in Europe believe that two clubs from Siberia will play in the EPCR tournaments?


Sorry, but no. For you to promote a new league, you need space in media. If they are investing in a new league (with between 8 to 12 teams!), to be in the top of the world, come on, which sort of interest (therefore, investment) would have a team in a minor league like GRR? Minor leagues worth if they don't cost much. Ilogical.

And Korea. A country that almost never plays test matches outside the Asian Championship. Will they invest in a costly franchise before doing step 1 (organizing better its national team and find cheaper solution with their obvious neighbours, Japan)? And with a small number of rugby players (smaller than Malaysia, BTW). Come on!

And China, yes, they are promissing their own professional league while they currently play ASIA'S 4TH DIVISION. I agree you could expect they trying a shortcut with GRR, but what have you seen from Chinese rugby until now? Again, they'll first start appearing in the Asia Championship and junior rugby before puting money on a risky league. If they'll take risks, better to create their own league. As they were saying they would.

Meanwhile NZ and Australia are losing players to Europe and... the solution is spending more money in a doubtful league? No, they invest more on what they already have - finding a solution for SR. Again, Force is different after being kicked out of SR (against their will... so, they won't simply choose to die, because they have Twiggy's money... and only because of this).

I'm not skeptical. The problem is all this is too naive.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 866
Joined: Wed, 26 Oct 2016, 16:02
National Flag:
RussiaRussia

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby STMKY » Fri, 15 Nov 2019, 18:06

The Bay of Plenty in Shanghai and Valke in Kuala Lumpur is a reality. Hong Kong at Rapid is also a reality. There will be other teams. In Rapid says about expansion to Asia. These are not just words.

Posts: 5876
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby victorsra » Fri, 15 Nov 2019, 18:24

STMKY wrote:The Bay of Plenty in Shanghai and Valke in Kuala Lumpur is a reality. Hong Kong at Rapid is also a reality. There will be other teams. In Rapid says about expansion to Asia. These are not just words.

No, it isn't, sorry. Valke is almost a reality, but it will be real only when GRR kicks-off (and will this idea of transporting a SA team to Asia go well... let's talk in 2021). BoP isn't anything yet. And even if it happens as an emergency thing to make 2020 season happen, wait for 2021. Now I saw Singapore is out. AP Dragons was a "right" thing for so long and...

We all know the history of this project since the creation of the Indo-Pacific Championship. Don't fool yourself.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 2139
Joined: Sun, 20 Apr 2014, 16:57
Location: Leicester
National Flag:
Great BritainGreat Britain

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 15 Nov 2019, 19:06

Is this BOP news well sourced?

Shanghai Steamers is an actually decent team name, very unusual for rugby competitions!

Posts: 5876
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby victorsra » Fri, 15 Nov 2019, 20:34

Well, it should sound well in Chinese, not English...
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

User avatar
Posts: 2961
Joined: Wed, 30 Apr 2014, 16:57

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby 4N » Fri, 15 Nov 2019, 21:05

victorsra wrote:Well, it should sound well in Chinese, not English...


How does Valke sound in Malay? :lol:

Posts: 1589
Joined: Sun, 18 May 2014, 13:27
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 16 Nov 2019, 02:27

sk 88 wrote:Is this BOP news well sourced?

Shanghai Steamers is an actually decent team name, very unusual for rugby competitions!


Yes. They'll be partnering with one of the sides.

Posts: 5876
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby victorsra » Sat, 16 Nov 2019, 03:29

4N wrote:
victorsra wrote:Well, it should sound well in Chinese, not English...


How does Valke sound in Malay? :lol:


It is true a team doesn't need to have players from its country to be popular. But this is only true if the sport is already very popular in the country(like soccer in most of the world) or if it has famous players.

I really struggle to see a team made up by a 4th tier of South African players being interesting in a country where rugby is allegedly moderately popular (but that has not made any real impact there). 4th tier of players? Yes, if we understand Springboks as tier 1, other Super Rugby players + former Boks in Europe as tier 2 and Pro14 players as tier 3 ... Players either too young or not good enough to make one of the 6 or 8 top teams in SA (including Currie Cup Premier Division teams) or to find a better contract in Europe or Japan... Which means not among the top 500 SA best players ... Not good enough to make sure Malayans will get out home to watch a bunch of anonymous foreign players of a sport that is not yet a reality there as a spectators sport. Risky bet.

Of course Toronto Wolfpack shows it is possible. But usualy very unlikely. It is not only a matter of simple marketing.
Last edited by victorsra on Sat, 16 Nov 2019, 03:52, edited 5 times in total.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 5876
Joined: Thu, 17 Apr 2014, 02:51
Location: São Paulo
National Flag:
BrazilBrazil

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby victorsra » Sat, 16 Nov 2019, 03:40

Working Class Rugger wrote:
sk 88 wrote:Is this BOP news well sourced?

Shanghai Steamers is an actually decent team name, very unusual for rugby competitions!


Yes. They'll be partnering with one of the sides.


Where is the source?

Because if it is like those from South America it is better to look with a more critical eye...
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

Posts: 1474
Joined: Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 17:09
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Tobar » Sat, 16 Nov 2019, 04:10

I would like to see this source too. I’ve only heard rumors here and on the Roar, otherwise nothing.

Posts: 574
Joined: Mon, 03 Jun 2019, 19:53
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Edgar » Tue, 26 Nov 2019, 08:25

Rugby Roar senior columnist Geoff Parkes seems confident the 6th franchise will be in Shanghai "supported by NZ province, BOP." If that's so, it is great news for the sport. What, with Chinese women off to the Olympics in Tokyo, this is really going to put rugby on the map in the world's most populous nation and second-biggest economy. https://www.theroar.com.au/2019/11/25/t ... -universe/

Nonetheless, there's a lot of work ahead. I spent a couple of months in Shanghai 16 years ago and the only rugby to speak of at that time was the Hairy Crabs social team full of expats. The vast majority of citizens existed in 3rd World squalor, while the wealthy minority were probably not the types to be interested in such a rough and tumble sport. It is highly doubtful a Shanghai franchise would include more than one or two "token" Chinese players in the foreseeable future.

Meanwhile, former All Blacks star Andrew Mehrtens has been quoted in ESPN News as stating it's time for NZ & Australia to move away from SA & Argentina and look to Asia. https://www.espn.com.au/rugby/story/_/i ... LCOPQaIMxU I agree, but let's not forget the Pacific Islands. & Rapid Rugby may just turn out to be the vehicle to take us in that direction.

Posts: 5562
Joined: Sat, 05 Jul 2014, 02:44
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 27 Nov 2019, 06:55

Indeed. I think it's inevitable. I think what may eventuate is something along these lines. Australia and New Zealand look to Asia, Argentina look to the Americas, and South Africa will look to Europe, and something along the lines of a champions league between the best club teams will happen at the end of the year. Super Rugby could just end up being a one month playoff at the end of each domestic competition.

Previous

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot], TuMachNach and 7 guests