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Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby victorsra » Sun, 19 Jan 2020, 20:02

We are all concerned that Corinthians has nothing anounced less than2 months from SLAR's kickoff, but GRR is also less than 2 months from kickoff and hasn't even officialy anounced who is the 6th franchise. Any OFFICIAL (not press rumours) information about Bay of Plenty's China adventure?
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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby sk 88 » Sun, 19 Jan 2020, 20:34

probably because GRR is clearly not a real league at this point as its just been shafted constantly by the men in suits in Sydney. People hope for better from SLAR.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Tue, 21 Jan 2020, 02:46

sk 88 wrote:probably because GRR is clearly not a real league at this point as its just been shafted constantly by the men in suits in Sydney. People hope for better from SLAR.


The suits in Sydney have had very little to do in the way of blocking GRR for some time now.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Wed, 22 Jan 2020, 09:24

Working Class Rugger wrote:
sk 88 wrote:probably because GRR is clearly not a real league at this point as its just been shafted constantly by the men in suits in Sydney. People hope for better from SLAR.


The suits in Sydney have had very little to do in the way of blocking GRR for some time now.


GRR is being blocked by geography

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 23 Jan 2020, 01:51

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
sk 88 wrote:probably because GRR is clearly not a real league at this point as its just been shafted constantly by the men in suits in Sydney. People hope for better from SLAR.


The suits in Sydney have had very little to do in the way of blocking GRR for some time now.


GRR is being blocked by geography


More so than SR was in 1996? At least all of these teams are in relatively workable time zones.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 23 Jan 2020, 06:50

Working Class Rugger wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
sk 88 wrote:probably because GRR is clearly not a real league at this point as its just been shafted constantly by the men in suits in Sydney. People hope for better from SLAR.


The suits in Sydney have had very little to do in the way of blocking GRR for some time now.


GRR is being blocked by geography


More so than SR was in 1996? At least all of these teams are in relatively workable time zones.


SR was the best players playing for the biggest provincial teams of three of the three best, richest and most enthusiastic rugby nations in the world.
Samoa to Perth or Samoa to Hong Kong is a 17 hour flight. Samoa has very little money or people. Samoa, Fiji and Western Australia are all remote isolated places far from anywhere else.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Thu, 23 Jan 2020, 07:34

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
sk 88 wrote:probably because GRR is clearly not a real league at this point as its just been shafted constantly by the men in suits in Sydney. People hope for better from SLAR.


The suits in Sydney have had very little to do in the way of blocking GRR for some time now.


GRR is being blocked by geography


More so than SR was in 1996? At least all of these teams are in relatively workable time zones.


SR was the best players playing for the biggest provincial teams of three of the three best, richest and most enthusiastic rugby nations in the world.
Samoa to Perth or Samoa to Hong Kong is a 17 hour flight. Samoa has very little money or people. Samoa, Fiji and Western Australia are all remote isolated places far from anywhere else.


I get that. But both have Rugby loving populations and sizeable diaspora's in Australia. Then there's also the money factor. Being it's funded by a bloke who's personal fortune is $9.3 USD and grows between $400-600m annually. Meaning those obstacles can be overcome. If you're referring to the toll the travel will take. Flying from Perth to Samoa crosses fewer time zones and requires far less adjustment to time than SR. Which is the killer with jet lag. Resetting your body clock.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 23 Jan 2020, 08:17

I do have faith in Western Australia, Hong Kong and Fiji. But they are very far apart. The Samoa and Malaysia teams do not seem particularly viable in my opinion. Asia Pacific Dragons seemed viable so losing them is a big setback. I do wish GRR well but I don't think there's much going for it other than having a rich benefactor.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby ihateblazers » Thu, 23 Jan 2020, 08:56

Thanks to Twiggy's wealth I don't think that the Geography is the biggest issue. There was some dicking around by the ARU which slowed things down and probably messed up some plans and deals with Asian unions.

With that being said I think this whole thing has lacked a clear vision from the start. The whole thing about "we're going to change the global rugby landscape with entertainment" is a load of crap. What Twiggy should have done is basically just professionalised the Asian national teams plus pacific islands and play the 2nd XV of the Force. Then pay for the 1st XV Force to play in the South African domestic competitions.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 23 Jan 2020, 13:10

I think, with Super Rugby being reduced to a single round robin format, there is space in the calendar for Australia's 4 Super Rugby teams to play in their own Currie Cup type competition. With Western Force, Fiji and Hong Kong added that is a nice competition similar to Currie Cup or Mitre10.
That still doesn't solve who does Western Force, Hong Kong and Fiji play whilst Super Rugby is taking place. Maybe shift the NRC to the first of the year. Or maybe Sunwolves, some other Japanese teams, and Russia's two Krasnoyarsk teams will want to form some sort of tournament, but this is just speculation.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby victorsra » Thu, 23 Jan 2020, 18:11

About Bay of Plenty, they could enter GRR as simply... Bay of Plenty, playing in Rotorua and Tauranga. The idea of them moving to China depends on .. Chinese investment! Many things were recently promised related to China, but few concrete things we saw until now...
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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 23 Jan 2020, 18:21

victorsra wrote:About Bay of Plenty, they could enter GRR as simply... Bay of Plenty, playing in Rotorua and Tauranga. The idea of them moving to China depends on .. Chinese investment! Many things were recently promised related to China, but few concrete things we saw until now...


I think they would be better off playing from the Bay of Plenty. That's much closer to Samoa and Fiji. 3 teams in the east and 3 in the west. 6 teams (2 Asia, 1 Australia, 3 Pacific). There's your league.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 23 Jan 2020, 19:22

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:About Bay of Plenty, they could enter GRR as simply... Bay of Plenty, playing in Rotorua and Tauranga. The idea of them moving to China depends on .. Chinese investment! Many things were recently promised related to China, but few concrete things we saw until now...


I think they would be better off playing from the Bay of Plenty. That's much closer to Samoa and Fiji. 3 teams in the east and 3 in the west. 6 teams (2 Asia, 1 Australia, 3 Pacific). There's your league.


Might be a quite heretic question, but is a team in BoP a market that will pay off and finance the PI teams in one way or the other?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby victorsra » Thu, 23 Jan 2020, 19:38

Bay of Plenty 's main city Tauranga is now bigger than Dunedin. It's NZ's 5th city now, with around 140.000 people. Not great, in fact. The whole BoP region is also the 4th biggest population in the country, around 300.000. It is like 30-40% (I haven't calculated) of the whole Chiefs area (BoP is linked to the Chiefs). Not great either, but it is the same population of the whole Highlanders area (Otago+Soutland regions). So, if Highlanders is viable, BoP might be too.
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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Thu, 23 Jan 2020, 20:53

victorsra wrote:Bay of Plenty 's main city Tauranga is now bigger than Dunedin. It's NZ's 5th city now, with around 140.000 people. Not great, in fact. The whole BoP region is also the 4th biggest population in the country, around 300.000. It is like 30-40% (I haven't calculated) of the whole Chiefs area (BoP is linked to the Chiefs). Not great either, but it is the same population of the whole Highlanders area (Otago+Soutland regions). So, if Highlanders is viable, BoP might be too.


Yes BoP certainly looks viable. Relatively large population including Brits, Australians, South Africans and Fijians. Bay of Plenty is a successful rugby team (Mitre10 Championship champions, promoted to Premier Division) with a nice stadium. It is on the north coast, so close to Fiji and Samoa. If New Zealand had a sixth Super Rugby team it would probably be BoP. This seems like a no brainer.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Fri, 24 Jan 2020, 01:41

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Bay of Plenty 's main city Tauranga is now bigger than Dunedin. It's NZ's 5th city now, with around 140.000 people. Not great, in fact. The whole BoP region is also the 4th biggest population in the country, around 300.000. It is like 30-40% (I haven't calculated) of the whole Chiefs area (BoP is linked to the Chiefs). Not great either, but it is the same population of the whole Highlanders area (Otago+Soutland regions). So, if Highlanders is viable, BoP might be too.


Yes BoP certainly looks viable. Relatively large population including Brits, Australians, South Africans and Fijians. Bay of Plenty is a successful rugby team (Mitre10 Championship champions, promoted to Premier Division) with a nice stadium. It is on the north coast, so close to Fiji and Samoa. If New Zealand had a sixth Super Rugby team it would probably be BoP. This seems like a no brainer.


I would have preferred BoP to enter as BoP but I think the likes of the Chiefs would have issues with them operating as a professional franchise in the catchment. You never know what the future will hold. May be they'll be able to carve out an agreement to play out of their home region.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 24 Jan 2020, 02:21

Working Class Rugger wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Bay of Plenty 's main city Tauranga is now bigger than Dunedin. It's NZ's 5th city now, with around 140.000 people. Not great, in fact. The whole BoP region is also the 4th biggest population in the country, around 300.000. It is like 30-40% (I haven't calculated) of the whole Chiefs area (BoP is linked to the Chiefs). Not great either, but it is the same population of the whole Highlanders area (Otago+Soutland regions). So, if Highlanders is viable, BoP might be too.


Yes BoP certainly looks viable. Relatively large population including Brits, Australians, South Africans and Fijians. Bay of Plenty is a successful rugby team (Mitre10 Championship champions, promoted to Premier Division) with a nice stadium. It is on the north coast, so close to Fiji and Samoa. If New Zealand had a sixth Super Rugby team it would probably be BoP. This seems like a no brainer.


I would have preferred BoP to enter as BoP but I think the likes of the Chiefs would have issues with them operating as a professional franchise in the catchment. You never know what the future will hold. May be they'll be able to carve out an agreement to play out of their home region.


I hope they do. I think GRR has much more chance of surviving and then becoming sustainable with a New Zealand team on board. Ultimately, having a strong Asia Pacific region will benefit New Zealand. If rugby becomes a popular spectator sport in South East Asia there will be more money to keep New Zealand's best players in New Zealand. Hopefully the Chiefs will see the big picture. They maybe just need to make sure the Chiefs and BoP fixtures don't clash. Chiefs could use BoP to give game time to academy players, reserve players etc. They should see this as an opportunity not a threat.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Thesjhughes » Fri, 24 Jan 2020, 02:35

Hi longtime reader of the t2 forum I am a person from Bay of Plenty I would support bay of plenty join global rapid rugby but there are potential downfalls the stadium in Tauranga can’t have night games in the stadium and Rotorua has very bad attendance they struggle to fill the ground out when they were given tickets for free. happy enough to share the team with there with China it could be a win-win situation. It’s just been very annoying that there hasn’t been any announcement about it yet.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Fri, 24 Jan 2020, 02:38

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Bay of Plenty 's main city Tauranga is now bigger than Dunedin. It's NZ's 5th city now, with around 140.000 people. Not great, in fact. The whole BoP region is also the 4th biggest population in the country, around 300.000. It is like 30-40% (I haven't calculated) of the whole Chiefs area (BoP is linked to the Chiefs). Not great either, but it is the same population of the whole Highlanders area (Otago+Soutland regions). So, if Highlanders is viable, BoP might be too.


Yes BoP certainly looks viable. Relatively large population including Brits, Australians, South Africans and Fijians. Bay of Plenty is a successful rugby team (Mitre10 Championship champions, promoted to Premier Division) with a nice stadium. It is on the north coast, so close to Fiji and Samoa. If New Zealand had a sixth Super Rugby team it would probably be BoP. This seems like a no brainer.


I would have preferred BoP to enter as BoP but I think the likes of the Chiefs would have issues with them operating as a professional franchise in the catchment. You never know what the future will hold. May be they'll be able to carve out an agreement to play out of their home region.


I hope they do. I think GRR has much more chance of surviving and then becoming sustainable with a New Zealand team on board. Ultimately, having a strong Asia Pacific region will benefit New Zealand. If rugby becomes a popular spectator sport in South East Asia there will be more money to keep New Zealand's best players in New Zealand. Hopefully the Chiefs will see the big picture. They maybe just need to make sure the Chiefs and BoP fixtures don't clash. Chiefs could use BoP to give game time to academy players, reserve players etc. They should see this as an opportunity not a threat.


It could happen. I know the NZRU has been receptive of GRR in the past. If they could have BoP home games scheduled for weeks the Chiefs are away it might work.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Working Class Rugger » Fri, 24 Jan 2020, 02:46

Thesjhughes wrote:Hi longtime reader of the t2 forum I am a person from Bay of Plenty I would support bay of plenty join global rapid rugby but there are potential downfalls the stadium in Tauranga can’t have night games in the stadium and Rotorua has very bad attendance they struggle to fill the ground out when they were given tickets for free. happy enough to share the team with there with China it could be a win-win situation. It’s just been very annoying that there hasn’t been any announcement about it yet.


Why is that?

I've been keen to see something regarding the team. I imagine they won't veer too far from the BoP motif in the name and colours. I suspect they'll be called the Shanghai Steamers and likely feature a very similar kit. Would just like something official.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 24 Jan 2020, 07:40

Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Bay of Plenty 's main city Tauranga is now bigger than Dunedin. It's NZ's 5th city now, with around 140.000 people. Not great, in fact. The whole BoP region is also the 4th biggest population in the country, around 300.000. It is like 30-40% (I haven't calculated) of the whole Chiefs area (BoP is linked to the Chiefs). Not great either, but it is the same population of the whole Highlanders area (Otago+Soutland regions). So, if Highlanders is viable, BoP might be too.


Yes BoP certainly looks viable. Relatively large population including Brits, Australians, South Africans and Fijians. Bay of Plenty is a successful rugby team (Mitre10 Championship champions, promoted to Premier Division) with a nice stadium. It is on the north coast, so close to Fiji and Samoa. If New Zealand had a sixth Super Rugby team it would probably be BoP. This seems like a no brainer.


I would have preferred BoP to enter as BoP but I think the likes of the Chiefs would have issues with them operating as a professional franchise in the catchment. You never know what the future will hold. May be they'll be able to carve out an agreement to play out of their home region.


I hope they do. I think GRR has much more chance of surviving and then becoming sustainable with a New Zealand team on board. Ultimately, having a strong Asia Pacific region will benefit New Zealand. If rugby becomes a popular spectator sport in South East Asia there will be more money to keep New Zealand's best players in New Zealand. Hopefully the Chiefs will see the big picture. They maybe just need to make sure the Chiefs and BoP fixtures don't clash. Chiefs could use BoP to give game time to academy players, reserve players etc. They should see this as an opportunity not a threat.


Just that I understand.
1. Super Rugby is cut down to 15 teams as 18 wasn't a viable number and fans (especially in NZ, but also SA) didn't bother to go to the games in numbers like they used to and there isn't enough money coming in as well.
2. A guy from Perth doesn't like that his team is cut and he starts a new league one reason is to create new markets, as the old ones apparently aren't viable enough.
3. Somebody comes up that a franchise in China would do that: create a new market in the biggest country on earth.
4. The idea comes up that the team in China could consist of the guys of a small region (big by Kiwi standards)
5. Somebody says: why not cut the Chinese part and play as that region at home. Also we need Kiwis in that league.
Aren't we now back at 1 were there isn't enough money coming in, not enough people are watching it and have stopped bothering about new markets and do the same old same old?
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this exactly what happens every single time, rugby people and fans want to expand their game? God forbid somebody came up with the dropped South African franchises/regions playing in another pro league (oh, they've actually done that with a massive success of an attendance of under 5000 per game).
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Edgar » Fri, 24 Jan 2020, 08:13

BoP was basically a retirement village in my day and Tauranga a haven for unemployed surfies and weed addicts. I think their main claim to fame was winning the inaugural National Provincial Championships in 1976 while the All Blacks were away in South Africa. Nice area but more of a rural setting than urban.

I would've thought North Harbour would have been a better option. Doesn't a third of New Zealand's population reside in Auckland these days? & you've got an international airport right there on the back doorstep. Just trying to be practical. There was a reason they staged just about the entire business end of the 2011 World Cup in that city.

My own preference for a new professional franchise would be the Hawkes Bay province. I think Napier-Hastings combined is still one of the nation's top 10 metropolitan centres. This is a traditional rugby heartland which produced many of the players involved in the 1920s "Invincible" All Blacks tour of the Northern Hemisphere. The likes of George Nepia and Maurice Brownlie are still rated among the best players New Zealand has ever produced.

The Hawkes Bay team of that era was also one of the greatest of the amateur era and set all kinds of records during a lengthy Ranfurly Shield reign under coaching guru Norm McKenzie. They recaptured a glimpse of their glory days in the 1960s, but by the 1980s had basically become a feeder union to the Otago province.

The only thing Dunedin itself has to offer is a thriving university community - which is big on rugby. Otherwise that province would have faded into obscurity a long time ago with its frigid winters and dwindling population. Well, they've also got a Super Rugby franchise now, although they got smacked 7-41 by the Saders this morning! :oops:

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby Chester-Donnelly » Fri, 24 Jan 2020, 08:51

Edgar, I think North Harbour would be the best option. Better connected, bigger population, and a large Pacific Islands population, who would hopefully want to watch North Harbour play Fiji and Samoa.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 24 Jan 2020, 11:00

I am really, really curious about this as I truely think this discussion is close to the root of all problems rugby has.
Why even bring up the next option, North Harbour, when
a) they have consistently bad numbers in the Mitre10
b) they are located a 20-minute-drive from Eden Park and the Blues also do not have an attendance to be proud of
c) this was not about who has the best and most players, but where you can generate growth in the game
Is it really just because of traditionalism and a slight xenophobic attitude?

Apart from that:
Are Pacific islanders really a factor when it comes to attendance figures? I would guess: yes, but I am not 100% sure about it, as this is said all the time, but I've never seen massive turn-outs due to more Islanders than they are regularly playing in a team anyway.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Western Force potentially looking for an Asian League

Postby victorsra » Fri, 24 Jan 2020, 13:02

RugbyLiebe wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
Chester-Donnelly wrote:
victorsra wrote:Bay of Plenty 's main city Tauranga is now bigger than Dunedin. It's NZ's 5th city now, with around 140.000 people. Not great, in fact. The whole BoP region is also the 4th biggest population in the country, around 300.000. It is like 30-40% (I haven't calculated) of the whole Chiefs area (BoP is linked to the Chiefs). Not great either, but it is the same population of the whole Highlanders area (Otago+Soutland regions). So, if Highlanders is viable, BoP might be too.


Yes BoP certainly looks viable. Relatively large population including Brits, Australians, South Africans and Fijians. Bay of Plenty is a successful rugby team (Mitre10 Championship champions, promoted to Premier Division) with a nice stadium. It is on the north coast, so close to Fiji and Samoa. If New Zealand had a sixth Super Rugby team it would probably be BoP. This seems like a no brainer.

Not

I would have preferred BoP to enter as BoP but I think the likes of the Chiefs would have issues with them operating as a professional franchise in the catchment. You never know what the future will hold. May be they'll be able to carve out an agreement to play out of their home region.


I hope they do. I think GRR has much more chance of surviving and then becoming sustainable with a New Zealand team on board. Ultimately, having a strong Asia Pacific region will benefit New Zealand. If rugby becomes a popular spectator sport in South East Asia there will be more money to keep New Zealand's best players in New Zealand. Hopefully the Chiefs will see the big picture. They maybe just need to make sure the Chiefs and BoP fixtures don't clash. Chiefs could use BoP to give game time to academy players, reserve players etc. They should see this as an opportunity not a threat.


Just that I understand.
1. Super Rugby is cut down to 15 teams as 18 wasn't a viable number and fans (especially in NZ, but also SA) didn't bother to go to the games in numbers like they used to and there isn't enough money coming in as well.
2. A guy from Perth doesn't like that his team is cut and he starts a new league one reason is to create new markets, as the old ones apparently aren't viable enough.
3. Somebody comes up that a franchise in China would do that: create a new market in the biggest country on earth.
4. The idea comes up that the team in China could consist of the guys of a small region (big by Kiwi standards)
5. Somebody says: why not cut the Chinese part and play as that region at home. Also we need Kiwis in that league.
Aren't we now back at 1 were there isn't enough money coming in, not enough people are watching it and have stopped bothering about new markets and do the same old same old?
Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this exactly what happens every single time, rugby people and fans want to expand their game? God forbid somebody came up with the dropped South African franchises/regions playing in another pro league (oh, they've actually done that with a massive success of an attendance of under 5000 per game).

Not realy the same old because it would be very important to have China, nobody desagrees. The problem is to use the Malaysia Valke formula...
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