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If Catalonia declares independance ...

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby 4N » Wed, 11 Oct 2017, 12:07

Latest is Rajoy demanding Puigdemont answer if he "really" declared independence. The Spanish government and their international allies will still find a way to screw this up, even though the Catalans were reasonable on Tuesday.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby amz » Wed, 11 Oct 2017, 12:35

From a legal point of view, I heard first time on Tuesday of the concept to suspend an act that wasn't enacted.

As for who screw what, can't really claim you're part of European rule of law by pushing to organize a referendum that don't comply with the basic legal requirements to be considered representative.

I could declare myself independent, but nobody would trade with me on such basis

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 11 Oct 2017, 12:43

It's a lot more complicated than that.
- President Puigdemont declared independence only to ask the Parliament to suspend it seconds after. But no vote of Catalan Parliament on either of these two things was held.
- Hours later Catalan pro-independence parties signed a declaration of independence in the Parliament building but not passing it through Parliament. And its suspension was signed only by the coalition in power and not its allies, so if it had been voted, it wouldn't have reached majority
- President Rajoy met yesterday with Socialist Party leader and Ciudadanos (centre-right party, although they often become hard-right in Catalonia, where they were born). They agreed to require Catalan government for clarification on whether they really declared independence or not so to intervene Catalonia or not.
- Catalan senior officials say to media the want dialogue but that independence is unnegotiable... so what kind of dialogue are they really seeking?
- Socialist Party claims they have agreed to debate a Constitutional reform, but would that be enough to stop the escalade?

I'm just fed up.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby amz » Wed, 11 Oct 2017, 12:47

It is so confusing that I wonder how these people were elected as Catalonian representatives in the first plays, looks like a teenagers soap opera tbh.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby Vova12 » Wed, 11 Oct 2017, 17:26

Armchair Fan wrote:It's a lot more complicated than that.
- President Puigdemont declared independence only to ask the Parliament to suspend it seconds after. But no vote of Catalan Parliament on either of these two things was held.
- Hours later Catalan pro-independence parties signed a declaration of independence in the Parliament building but not passing it through Parliament. And its suspension was signed only by the coalition in power and not its allies, so if it had been voted, it wouldn't have reached majority
- President Rajoy met yesterday with Socialist Party leader and Ciudadanos (centre-right party, although they often become hard-right in Catalonia, where they were born). They agreed to require Catalan government for clarification on whether they really declared independence or not so to intervene Catalonia or not.
- Catalan senior officials say to media the want dialogue but that independence is unnegotiable... so what kind of dialogue are they really seeking?
- Socialist Party claims they have agreed to debate a Constitutional reform, but would that be enough to stop the escalade?

I'm just fed up.

Next season "Game of Thrones" will undoubtely be shot in Spain ...
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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby rey200 » Wed, 11 Oct 2017, 20:21

maybe i'm off topic... but read this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_o ... _Catalonia

and think about it: would 2017 happen without 2010? I highly doubt it!

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 11 Oct 2017, 21:02

You aren't off topic, there is a point about that. But if you look at the detail, only 14 articles from more than 200 were rewritten. And most of them just in small things like changing "Catalan will be the prevailing language in the administration" to "will be the normal language in the administration". Catalan pro-independence movement uses Estatut rework by Constitutional Court as one of the reasons why they want to leave, but this wasn't any issue for Catalan right party to support Spanish budgets later on... They didn't become keen on independence until 2012 or 2013.

What must be understood is that an Statute of Autonomy will always be below a Constitution. If it's against the Constitution, maybe we need to change it before passing a new Statute. Or organise a referendum when Constitution says only the State can. There is an order. If you respect that legal order, nothing is impossible. That's why I say I'm not against a referendum or independence, I just wish they did things the way they should be done. Nothing else.

--

Did you think the situation was comic enough? A robber in a prison (under Catalan management) has requested his freedom since Catalan institutions no longer recognise Spanish law (as per a bill passed by Catalan Parliament in early September to organise the referendum): https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/10/11/cata ... 84223.html

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 23 Oct 2017, 10:05

Just to return to rugby, full coverage of Catalonia v Basque Country game from 1990 in old San Mamés stadium. Serge Blanco played for Euskadi:

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby 4N » Fri, 27 Oct 2017, 14:16

Catalonia has declared independence.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby eal22 » Fri, 27 Oct 2017, 18:05

Congratulations to Catalonia.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby victorsra » Fri, 27 Oct 2017, 19:07

And the Spanish government dissolved the Catalan parliament...
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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby BLASICO » Fri, 27 Oct 2017, 21:54

eal22 wrote:Congratulations to Catalonia.


ignorance is rude

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby 4N » Fri, 27 Oct 2017, 21:57

BLASICO wrote:
eal22 wrote:Congratulations to Catalonia.


ignorance is rude


Why assume they're ignorant?

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby thatrugbyguy » Fri, 27 Oct 2017, 22:25

It's hardly congratulations. It's never going to be recognised given how botched the process was.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby eal22 » Fri, 27 Oct 2017, 22:50

thatrugbyguy wrote:It's hardly congratulations. It's never going to be recognised given how botched the process was.


The Spanish government would never allow a genuine referendum. The Spanish government has brought this situation on itself.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby sk 88 » Fri, 27 Oct 2017, 22:52

It all seems fucked to me.

Th only way out of this is a new referendum over seen by a neutral body (USA? UK? UN?)

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby eal22 » Sat, 28 Oct 2017, 00:02

sk 88 wrote:It all seems fucked to me.

Th only way out of this is a new referendum over seen by a neutral body (USA? UK? UN?)


Given that Spain will never allow a binding referendum it is hard to know what Catalans should do. Their current course of action is really the only path left for them.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 28 Oct 2017, 00:26

eal22 wrote:Congratulations to Catalonia.

negatron

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 28 Oct 2017, 02:37

eal22 wrote:
The Spanish government would never allow a genuine referendum. The Spanish government has brought this situation on itself.


Catalan government isn't exactly innocent in all of this either.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby BLASICO » Sat, 28 Oct 2017, 07:41

4N wrote:
BLASICO wrote:
eal22 wrote:Congratulations to Catalonia.


ignorance is rude


Why assume they're ignorant?



The crude reality:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/cataloni ... rt-lacalle

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby olivier » Sat, 28 Oct 2017, 10:53

I propose we add Catalonia in the flags available...

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby Vova12 » Sat, 28 Oct 2017, 11:24

And will the Catalans die for their freedom as Russians in Donbass or Chechens in Chechnya 25 years ago?
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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby victorsra » Sat, 28 Oct 2017, 12:19

Now the Spanish government took control of the Catalan government as predictable. And EU wont talk to Catalonia as also predictable. Unless there is uncontrolable violence there wont be a thir negotiator.
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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby amz » Sat, 28 Oct 2017, 15:55

Vova12 wrote:And will the Catalans die for their freedom as Russians in Donbass or Chechens in Chechnya 25 years ago?

Absolutely not, there's nobody out there to sent mercenaries and weapons to them.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby Vova12 » Sat, 28 Oct 2017, 16:06

amz wrote:
Vova12 wrote:And will the Catalans die for their freedom as Russians in Donbass or Chechens in Chechnya 25 years ago?

Absolutely not, there's nobody out there to sent mercenaries and weapons to them.

Are you talking about Chechnya or Donbass?
In any case then what you are fed far from reality ...
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