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If Catalonia declares independance ...

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby 4N » Wed, 11 Oct 2017, 12:07

Latest is Rajoy demanding Puigdemont answer if he "really" declared independence. The Spanish government and their international allies will still find a way to screw this up, even though the Catalans were reasonable on Tuesday.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby amz » Wed, 11 Oct 2017, 12:35

From a legal point of view, I heard first time on Tuesday of the concept to suspend an act that wasn't enacted.

As for who screw what, can't really claim you're part of European rule of law by pushing to organize a referendum that don't comply with the basic legal requirements to be considered representative.

I could declare myself independent, but nobody would trade with me on such basis

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 11 Oct 2017, 12:43

It's a lot more complicated than that.
- President Puigdemont declared independence only to ask the Parliament to suspend it seconds after. But no vote of Catalan Parliament on either of these two things was held.
- Hours later Catalan pro-independence parties signed a declaration of independence in the Parliament building but not passing it through Parliament. And its suspension was signed only by the coalition in power and not its allies, so if it had been voted, it wouldn't have reached majority
- President Rajoy met yesterday with Socialist Party leader and Ciudadanos (centre-right party, although they often become hard-right in Catalonia, where they were born). They agreed to require Catalan government for clarification on whether they really declared independence or not so to intervene Catalonia or not.
- Catalan senior officials say to media the want dialogue but that independence is unnegotiable... so what kind of dialogue are they really seeking?
- Socialist Party claims they have agreed to debate a Constitutional reform, but would that be enough to stop the escalade?

I'm just fed up.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby amz » Wed, 11 Oct 2017, 12:47

It is so confusing that I wonder how these people were elected as Catalonian representatives in the first plays, looks like a teenagers soap opera tbh.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby Vova12 » Wed, 11 Oct 2017, 17:26

Armchair Fan wrote:It's a lot more complicated than that.
- President Puigdemont declared independence only to ask the Parliament to suspend it seconds after. But no vote of Catalan Parliament on either of these two things was held.
- Hours later Catalan pro-independence parties signed a declaration of independence in the Parliament building but not passing it through Parliament. And its suspension was signed only by the coalition in power and not its allies, so if it had been voted, it wouldn't have reached majority
- President Rajoy met yesterday with Socialist Party leader and Ciudadanos (centre-right party, although they often become hard-right in Catalonia, where they were born). They agreed to require Catalan government for clarification on whether they really declared independence or not so to intervene Catalonia or not.
- Catalan senior officials say to media the want dialogue but that independence is unnegotiable... so what kind of dialogue are they really seeking?
- Socialist Party claims they have agreed to debate a Constitutional reform, but would that be enough to stop the escalade?

I'm just fed up.

Next season "Game of Thrones" will undoubtely be shot in Spain ...
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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby rey200 » Wed, 11 Oct 2017, 20:21

maybe i'm off topic... but read this

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_o ... _Catalonia

and think about it: would 2017 happen without 2010? I highly doubt it!

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 11 Oct 2017, 21:02

You aren't off topic, there is a point about that. But if you look at the detail, only 14 articles from more than 200 were rewritten. And most of them just in small things like changing "Catalan will be the prevailing language in the administration" to "will be the normal language in the administration". Catalan pro-independence movement uses Estatut rework by Constitutional Court as one of the reasons why they want to leave, but this wasn't any issue for Catalan right party to support Spanish budgets later on... They didn't become keen on independence until 2012 or 2013.

What must be understood is that an Statute of Autonomy will always be below a Constitution. If it's against the Constitution, maybe we need to change it before passing a new Statute. Or organise a referendum when Constitution says only the State can. There is an order. If you respect that legal order, nothing is impossible. That's why I say I'm not against a referendum or independence, I just wish they did things the way they should be done. Nothing else.

--

Did you think the situation was comic enough? A robber in a prison (under Catalan management) has requested his freedom since Catalan institutions no longer recognise Spanish law (as per a bill passed by Catalan Parliament in early September to organise the referendum): https://elpais.com/ccaa/2017/10/11/cata ... 84223.html

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