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If Catalonia declares independance ...

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby victorsra » Mon, 09 Oct 2017, 14:18

Austria-Hungary wasn't one state but two different monarchies...the joint affaires were only in defense and foreign policy.

Yes, but isn't sport part of "foreign affairs"?
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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby amz » Mon, 09 Oct 2017, 14:23

victorsra wrote:
Austria-Hungary wasn't one state but two different monarchies...the joint affaires were only in defense and foreign policy.

Yes, but isn't sport part of "foreign affairs"?


Never heard of being part of foreign affaires somewhere in the world :) Hungary had even different parliaments and customs services and many many different approaches compared with Austria, that's why it was named Dual Monarchy, it was a personal union of the monarch and not a single country

STMKY wrote:Yes, guys. Many in the West clapped their hands when the USSR and Yugoslavia were destroyed. 25 years have passed, the boomerang returns.


Compared with Soviet Union, the difference is that the union of Catalonia with Spain wasn't enforced with weapons such as machine guns :) And the red pest you Russian brought into the world is party responsible for the Spanish Civil War.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby victorsra » Mon, 09 Oct 2017, 14:27

Well, if IOC just recognises UN-recognised countries, it is...

At that time there wasn't UN. I don't know what was IOC or FIFA's policy. But sport is politics. You just recognise a national team if you agree you need to treat a country as a separate entity.
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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby STMKY » Mon, 09 Oct 2017, 14:38

amz wrote:Compared with Soviet Union, the difference is that the union of Catalonia with Spain wasn't enforced with weapons such as machine guns :) And the red pest you Russian brought into the world is party responsible for the Spanish Civil War.

I do not know the history of Spain, how Catalonia became part of Spain, but rest very funny. The USSR is the territory of the Russian Empire without Poland and Finland. You can believe in any myths about Russia, but the pendulum of history has moved to our side. Now our time to clap and study the geography of the West on news from TV.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby Figaro » Mon, 09 Oct 2017, 14:59

amz wrote:Compared with Soviet Union, the difference is that the union of Catalonia with Spain wasn't enforced with weapons such as machine guns :)


No, just rubber bullets and police batons...

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 09 Oct 2017, 15:13

Figaro wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:having 30, 40, 45% (I don't care how much really) born and grown in your territory against your own new State it's definitely your problem.


But that's the situation already, surely, except it's a different set of people?

But yes, I was talking about sports teams and am not trying to make any kind of political point. What I was trying to say was that the UK (and Denmark) gives a clear precedent, if the Spanish had wanted to put forward several different national sides from the start then they could; there's no reason you have to do things in a particular way. Harder to change the way things are done once a system is embedded, but it can happen: the demise of the Great Britain Rugby League team, for instance.

It's the situation, but currently a set of rules approved by vast majorities applies. There are even mechanisms to promote independence within Spanish legal system (basically you need 2/3 vote to change Spanish Constitution and 2/3 vote in Catalan Parliament to change their Statute of Autonomy). Willing to change these basic rules with 50%+1 vote to build a whole new State is opening a huge can of worms and can only assure instability in that territory for a couple of decades.

Regarding sports teams, let me be clear, I strongly oppose Spanish government policy regarding boycotting Gibraltar acceptance in international federations or how Catalonia was expelled from roller hockey federation a decade ago. But I wouldn't like to see multiple national sides competiting at international stage for a very particular reason: eligibility would be a nightmare as exposed in other threads regarding how this applies in rugby union.

STMKY wrote:Yes, guys. Many in the West clapped their hands when the USSR and Yugoslavia were destroyed. 25 years have passed, the boomerang returns.


Are you really comparing a territory that became part of Spain by marriage 500 years ago to Lithuania or Croatia? Thirst for revenge shouldn't blind you. And don't forget Russia and Spain are on the same side regarding Kosovo, for example.

amz wrote:Compared with Soviet Union, the difference is that the union of Catalonia with Spain wasn't enforced with weapons such as machine guns :) And the red pest you Russian brought into the world is party responsible for the Spanish Civil War.

Meh, Spanish Civil War was due to happen anyway. II Republic was proclaimed in 1931 just because the King scared and fled the country, there was no unity behind it and every single party tried to destroy it its own way (Catalonia even briefly proclaimed its independence). There were both left-wing and right-wing governments without real success. In the end those who imposed their rule were those with the most powerful international partners and unfortunately for my country those were some intelligent enough to last for 40 years in power.

To blame any foreign side for what happened in Spain would be too innocent.

Figaro wrote:
amz wrote:Compared with Soviet Union, the difference is that the union of Catalonia with Spain wasn't enforced with weapons such as machine guns :)


No, just rubber bullets and police batons...

It's called monopoly on power and it's a basic principle of modern law. Nobody was beaten for voting, they were beaten because they resisted authority when a judge asked polling stations to be dismantled. There is a reason why nobody was arrested. And in this case I play devil's advocate, because I totally disagree with the way this issue has been handled by Spanish government, but let's be honest. This isn't military occupation.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby amz » Mon, 09 Oct 2017, 15:29

To compare police rubber bullets and batons with Soviet methods it is very naive :)

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby STMKY » Mon, 09 Oct 2017, 15:38

Armchair Fan wrote:
STMKY wrote:Yes, guys. Many in the West clapped their hands when the USSR and Yugoslavia were destroyed. 25 years have passed, the boomerang returns.

Are you really comparing a territory that became part of Spain by marriage 500 years ago to Lithuania or Croatia? Thirst for revenge shouldn't blind you. And don't forget Russia and Spain are on the same side regarding Kosovo, for example.


Russia collected the largest territory in the world more than 500 years. Those territories that fell off in 1991 in the course of many wars with the Germans, Swedes, Poles, Turks, Persians ... I do not know whether Catalonia entered 500 years ago into Spain by peaceful means, but Lithuania in the middle of the 20th century voluntarily joined the USSR. And during the time she was in the USSR she received additional territories from Stalin (Vilnius and Klaipeda). Western propaganda do not speak about this. You say Kosovo, but be silent about Crimea, where Russian people voted in the referendum on reunification with Russia. Do you remember the Berlin Wall, West and East Germany? The Germans forgot who did this. There was no referendum. We are accustomed to the double standards of the West. But Russia is not going to interfere in your affairs. Especially revenge, your politicians themselves will destroy everything. We will just look from the outside. I'm not support Spain or Catalonia, I'm just stating a fact. I understand that this circus with Catalonia is largely supported by MI6 in order to take Spain's from Gibraltar. But these are your problems.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby STMKY » Mon, 09 Oct 2017, 16:13

amz wrote:To compare police rubber bullets and batons with Soviet methods it is very naive :)

We have rugby site, here you can easily find representatives of the outskirts of the Anglo-Saxon Empire and the Russian Empire. Ask the Irish how they lived in those days. I was shocked when I learned that the English were engaged in crossing Irish slaves and African slaves. And ask the Georgians how they lived during the Soviet era. They lived better than Russians, for example, Russians in Krasnoyarsk. Georgian Stalin became a man of the 20th century and entered the history of Russia.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby Zhenya_Zima » Mon, 09 Oct 2017, 22:19

I'm looking forward to supporting the Abkhaz rugby team!

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby victorsra » Tue, 10 Oct 2017, 00:48

Neither the Castillan-Aragonese kingdoms, the Poland-Lithuanian monarchy, the British Lordship of Ireland or the Russian Empire during its expansion years had the concept of nation-state. This is an idea emerged, forged and lapidated during 18th-19th centuries and exploded and was took as "natural" during the 20th century. Now in the 21st century we are seeing it under pression of a world whose identities are multiple. And anything under pression reacts strongly.

Spain-Catalonia question is centenary but nothing tells us now what it can become. I am half Portuguese and I love Spain. Awesome country. I hope a rational solution in irrational times...

I'm looking forward to supporting the Abkhaz rugby team!

Never found anything. Is there rugby in Abkhazia?
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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby RugbyLiebe » Tue, 10 Oct 2017, 08:18

victorsra wrote: Austria and Hungary were FIFA members while they formed the Austria-Hungary Empire. Other times... Nowadays it cant happen


You forgot the Czech and Slovak soccer federation which joined the FIFA 1907. Actually better cases, as at that time they were nearly organized the same way within the Austrian empire as Wales and Scotland in the UK.
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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Tue, 10 Oct 2017, 08:25

As I remember, ZZ spent a holiday in Abkhazia some years ago
Hence, he is just joking about their rugby team

There is no rugby there - neither it was in Soviet times

But there is a new rugby club in greater Georgia
formed by refugees from Abkhazia region

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby STMKY » Tue, 10 Oct 2017, 08:57

Andrei Temnov seems to be from Abkhazia.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Tue, 10 Oct 2017, 09:38

Viktor Saneev, triple-jumper, as well
and Nikita Simonyan, footballer

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby Figaro » Tue, 10 Oct 2017, 11:19

Armchair Fan wrote:It's called monopoly on power and it's a basic principle of modern law. Nobody was beaten for voting, they were beaten because they resisted authority when a judge asked polling stations to be dismantled. There is a reason why nobody was arrested. And in this case I play devil's advocate, because I totally disagree with the way this issue has been handled by Spanish government, but let's be honest. This isn't military occupation.


The monopoly on force doesn't mean that the state has the right to arbitrarily physically punish its citizens.

In the civilized world you don't beat someone up who's comitting a crime, you arrest them. If nobody was doing anything sufficiently dangerous or illegal to warrant arrest, why were they being beaten? Either the voters were comitting a crime, and they should have been arrested, or they weren't, in which case they shouldn't have been beaten.

The response to this was totally indefensible and should have been condemned by the international community. Whether or not it compares to the UUSR's methods or any other historical oppression is irrelevant.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby amz » Tue, 10 Oct 2017, 11:50

Figaro wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:It's called monopoly on power and it's a basic principle of modern law. Nobody was beaten for voting, they were beaten because they resisted authority when a judge asked polling stations to be dismantled. There is a reason why nobody was arrested. And in this case I play devil's advocate, because I totally disagree with the way this issue has been handled by Spanish government, but let's be honest. This isn't military occupation.


The monopoly on force doesn't mean that the state has the right to arbitrarily physically punish its citizens.

In the civilized world you don't beat someone up who's comitting a crime, you arrest them. If nobody was doing anything sufficiently dangerous or illegal to warrant arrest, why were they being beaten? Either the voters were comitting a crime, and they should have been arrested, or they weren't, in which case they shouldn't have been beaten.

The response to this was totally indefensible and should have been condemned by the international community. Whether or not it compares to the UUSR's methods or any other historical oppression is irrelevant.


People often forget what Spanish police was doing there, they were collection materials used to enact an illegal act. Citizens were warned before that they will use force to collect the materials and close the voting stations so since they willingly opposed to the police action put them outside the rule of law.

It is a lot of naive emotion, manipulated by various factors toward a police action no more violent that daily ones against other groups who break the law e.g. football supporters, anti-globalisation groups etc.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby sammo » Tue, 10 Oct 2017, 12:10

amz wrote:
Figaro wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:It's called monopoly on power and it's a basic principle of modern law. Nobody was beaten for voting, they were beaten because they resisted authority when a judge asked polling stations to be dismantled. There is a reason why nobody was arrested. And in this case I play devil's advocate, because I totally disagree with the way this issue has been handled by Spanish government, but let's be honest. This isn't military occupation.


The monopoly on force doesn't mean that the state has the right to arbitrarily physically punish its citizens.

In the civilized world you don't beat someone up who's comitting a crime, you arrest them. If nobody was doing anything sufficiently dangerous or illegal to warrant arrest, why were they being beaten? Either the voters were comitting a crime, and they should have been arrested, or they weren't, in which case they shouldn't have been beaten.

The response to this was totally indefensible and should have been condemned by the international community. Whether or not it compares to the UUSR's methods or any other historical oppression is irrelevant.


People often forget what Spanish police was doing there, they were collection materials used to enact an illegal act. Citizens were warned before that they will use force to collect the materials and close the voting stations so since they willingly opposed to the police action put them outside the rule of law.

It is a lot of naive emotion, manipulated by various factors toward a police action no more violent that daily ones against other groups who break the law e.g. football supporters, anti-globalisation groups etc.


But violent football supporters and anti globalisation groups would be arrested for acting like this, the police on the other hand...

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby amz » Tue, 10 Oct 2017, 12:42

sammo wrote:
But violent football supporters and anti globalisation groups would be arrested for acting like this, the police on the other hand...


I wanted to point out that the same level of violence is used against football supporters/anti globalisation groups and is not made such a fuss about. True, it wasn't so much violence for referendum defenders but they still brake the law, even in different ways. So what I wanted to say is that they were on the same side with football supporters which are combated by police in the same way, with rubber bullets so I don't get why is such a big scandal.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby victorsra » Tue, 10 Oct 2017, 13:25

Going back to rugby, I guess Catalans will try to make their regional team more active now. They played Portugal recently...
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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 10 Oct 2017, 13:37

Figaro wrote:
Armchair Fan wrote:It's called monopoly on power and it's a basic principle of modern law. Nobody was beaten for voting, they were beaten because they resisted authority when a judge asked polling stations to be dismantled. There is a reason why nobody was arrested. And in this case I play devil's advocate, because I totally disagree with the way this issue has been handled by Spanish government, but let's be honest. This isn't military occupation.


The monopoly on force doesn't mean that the state has the right to arbitrarily physically punish its citizens.

In the civilized world you don't beat someone up who's comitting a crime, you arrest them. If nobody was doing anything sufficiently dangerous or illegal to warrant arrest, why were they being beaten? Either the voters were comitting a crime, and they should have been arrested, or they weren't, in which case they shouldn't have been beaten.

The response to this was totally indefensible and should have been condemned by the international community. Whether or not it compares to the UUSR's methods or any other historical oppression is irrelevant.

Because the only purpose was to take voting material. Voting wasn't a crime, nobody is prosecuting two million voters. Police employed force to accomplish what courts ordered them to do and law is on their side. That's not arbitrary, it followed the legal path to justify it. What would have been the point of arresting thousands of people? Would they commit any crime after the end of referendum? That would have been even more arbitrary and disproportionate.

Yet if you ask me if that was the most clever way I would answer to you that absolutely not. Not at all. Spanish government f***** it up since the moment when Catalan government announced there was universal census. Dismantling voting stations was pointless, but everybody was stupid enough to fall into the trap.

I'm not opposed to a referendum or Catalan independence, I've never voted the ruling party in Spain and dislike the way they've dealt with this issue. But independence must have some guarantees before being proclaimed the way they intend.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 10 Oct 2017, 13:43

victorsra wrote:Going back to rugby, I guess Catalans will try to make their regional team more active now. They played Portugal recently...

Not until they gain international recognition. It's easier to play serious international 7s than XV until they get recognised. I'll leave you this interview with Catalan Rugby Union president where he explains the decision: http://www.rugbycat.cat/ignasi-planas-p ... amb-menys/

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby victorsra » Tue, 10 Oct 2017, 14:14

Cool, in Catalan XD I guess knowing Portuguese, Spanish and French will help :p
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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby amz » Wed, 11 Oct 2017, 09:55

It seems the independence part was postponed, surely dozens of companies moving HQ elsewhere in Spain had a say :) The sooner this joke is ending, the better for all parties involved.

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Re: If Catalonia declares independance ...

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 11 Oct 2017, 11:58

It's not ending...

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