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Rugby League World Cup 2017

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sun, 12 Nov 2017, 23:44

MikeN wrote:actually no, your son is not a perfect example.
He is one example, perhaps even an extreme example. And if he doesn't feel English then he doesn't have to play for them.
You can find extreme examples for the other criteria as well.


Not that extreme. My youngest kid will have 90 years in between if chosing to play for the Czech Republic at the age of 20.

But apart from this, I agree those are rare cases. The grandparent rule makes sure you can quite surely play for the country you hold the passport for:
A guy I know was born in another country due to the closest hospital being over the boarder. If he has kids while working abroad, his kids won't be able to play for their country under some circumstances.
I would be for a parent or citizen rule. Get rid of the 3/5 year rule as well then.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sun, 12 Nov 2017, 23:53

thatrugbyguy wrote:There's a really bad quirk in this tournament format. Samoa won zero matches and qualified for the Quarter Finals, Ireland won 2 matches and didn't qualify. Anyway....

Yes, USA were again terrible, I can't imagine them or Canada being much better in 8 years time. It doesn't even look like the tournament is going to match the crowd numbers of 2013, even if they were to sell out every venue for the rest of the tournament they're going to barley equal the numbers of tickets sold 4 years ago.


I get into arguments with League fans all the time about this. But if League are genuine about growing the game into markets like the US they are going to have actually engage in some legitimate development work. Which in all likelihood will take decades to see any real return. But instead they go for instant gratification time and time again. Like the Wolfpack. They brag that they have the only professional Rugby team of any kind in Nth America. Filled almost entirely with imports and engaging in exactly zero development work.

While within that market and directly south in the US a new Rugby Union league is establishing with 7 teams in its first season and probably 10-12 in its second with a strong likelihood of one in the Wolfpacks catchment that as part of signing on to that league are mandated to engage in development works.

I get accused regularly of hating League. I don't. I grew up watching and playing the game equally as much as I did Rugby. But I have long lost interest in the game long ago. I don't wish it any ill but it's become far to structured and unpredictable for my tastes. So my suggestion will always fall on deaf ears.

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby Working Class Rugger » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 00:02

thatrugbyguy wrote:There's a really bad quirk in this tournament format. Samoa won zero matches and qualified for the Quarter Finals, Ireland won 2 matches and didn't qualify. Anyway....

Yes, USA were again terrible, I can't imagine them or Canada being much better in 8 years time. It doesn't even look like the tournament is going to match the crowd numbers of 2013, even if they were to sell out every venue for the rest of the tournament they're going to barley equal the numbers of tickets sold 4 years ago.


The format is just crazy. How the hell can a team that actually won a game let alone two fail to qualify for the next stage while a team that has been poor considering the talent at its disposal who's best result was a draw make it through to the next round. It's high farce.

Regarding the crowd numbers. They're averaging a little over 11,000 a game at present. So a step back from the previous edition apparently. The biggest problem is, outside of a handful of the teams such as the Kangaroos, England, New Zealand and Tonga. None of the rest are really even NRL quality let alone international. Which tends to lend itself to the 'who cares' factor in a market that time and time again has proven itself ambivalent to international competition.

With the exception of PNG, Fiji and Samoa when they actually bother to show up (though outside of Samoa playing Tonga, none of these teams have actually played anyone of seriously high calibre). Most of the other teams would be hard up being competitive at QLD/NSW Cup level.

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby victorsra » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 00:44

Another problem of the competition is that the venues are spread in a way none of the cities create a true bond to the event.

It woild be better to have the cup in just one single region. If the level is a problem, non-NRL cities could work better.

Townsville, Canberra and Sydney are terrible choices as they have NRL. Perth and Cairns looked to have better % of the stadium filled.ot to mention Port Moresby.
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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby MikeN » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 00:49

Working Class Rugger wrote:Anyway, after watching the USA Hawks game against a sloppy PNG yesterday I am willing to put money on the 2025 RLWc not being hosted in the USA. The Hawks are just too far behind in regards to being capable of providing a competitive showing at home. Which is what would be necessary for it to gain any traction.


I always thought that league would be more popular in the US and Canada than union. It's a lot simpler than union and would suit gridiron players better - run with the ball until you get stopped then get up and play it again. Obviously not.

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby Working Class Rugger » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 01:33

MikeN wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:Anyway, after watching the USA Hawks game against a sloppy PNG yesterday I am willing to put money on the 2025 RLWc not being hosted in the USA. The Hawks are just too far behind in regards to being capable of providing a competitive showing at home. Which is what would be necessary for it to gain any traction.


I always thought that league would be more popular in the US and Canada than union. It's a lot simpler than union and would suit gridiron players better - run with the ball until you get stopped then get up and play it again. Obviously not.


I've always found that strange. This belief that it being a simpler game helps. Have you seen American Football. Not at all simple in its structure.

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby MikeN » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 01:47

Working Class Rugger wrote:
MikeN wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:Anyway, after watching the USA Hawks game against a sloppy PNG yesterday I am willing to put money on the 2025 RLWc not being hosted in the USA. The Hawks are just too far behind in regards to being capable of providing a competitive showing at home. Which is what would be necessary for it to gain any traction.


I always thought that league would be more popular in the US and Canada than union. It's a lot simpler than union and would suit gridiron players better - run with the ball until you get stopped then get up and play it again. Obviously not.


I've always found that strange. This belief that it being a simpler game helps. Have you seen American Football. Not at all simple in its structure.


sorry I meant that league is simpler than union - no mauls, rucks, lineouts. Much easier for a newcomer to pick up.

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 02:16

I've never understood the logic either that league is more suited to American audiences when the number one sport is far more complex than rugby. It just seems to me one of those baseless assumptions that have no basis in fact. If you want to say League is easier to explain that's a different argument, I would probably agree with that, but just because it's simpler doesn't mean it's easier to win people over. I'd actually argue rugby isn't all that complicated once you understand how rucks, mauls and how the contest work, that's really the only fundamental difference between the two code. Once you understand how the contest for possession works it's pretty straight forward to understand. And visually rugby looks more like American football given where the defensive and attacking lines stand. Each ruck can be easily correlated to the snap in an NFL play, with the scrum half being the equivalent of the quarter-back controlling the attack, the game frequently stops and starts, even the scoring system is similar. League really only has the tackle limit that's comparable, the spacing between attack and defence is far larger and there's no real equivalent to the play the ball. Both have elements that can relate to the sport, but rugby's roots are easy to see in American football.

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby Neptune » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 05:22

How does Ireland fail to win a game and still make it to the quarter finals, yet Samoa wins two games, but can't make it? The things that happen in Rugby League baffle me.

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby Working Class Rugger » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 06:13

Neptune wrote:How does Ireland fail to win a game and still make it to the quarter finals, yet Samoa wins two games, but can't make it? The things that happen in Rugby League baffle me.


Ugh..you've got the backwards. It's Ireland that won two games and missed out while Samoa who drew 1 and lost the other 2 qualify.

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 08:35

RugbyLiebe wrote:
MikeN wrote:actually no, your son is not a perfect example.
He is one example, perhaps even an extreme example. And if he doesn't feel English then he doesn't have to play for them.
You can find extreme examples for the other criteria as well.


Not that extreme. My youngest kid will have 90 years in between if chosing to play for the Czech Republic at the age of 20.

But apart from this, I agree those are rare cases. The grandparent rule makes sure you can quite surely play for the country you hold the passport for:
A guy I know was born in another country due to the closest hospital being over the boarder. If he has kids while working abroad, his kids won't be able to play for their country under some circumstances.
I would be for a parent or citizen rule. Get rid of the 3/5 year rule as well then.



Well there is the residency rule, with its new little quirk which I forget the full details of but which designed for people who grow up in a country they otherwise would not qualify for and then move away.

Arguably the ONLY fair rule should be based on residency, after all what are we meant to be watching in international sport? Who has the biggest dispora or which countries own grown players are the best?

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 09:14

sk 88 wrote:Well there is the residency rule, with its new little quirk which I forget the full details of but which designed for people who grow up in a country they otherwise would not qualify for and then move away.


After googling it: 10 years of cumulative residency it is. I think as long as not every rugby rugby has a player's base as large as England's we do neeed to keep that rules somewhat open. The gap is still too big and if used wisely this rules do de facto help to get teams better
- without them too much looking like random sides gathered under a more or less random national flag like we see in League.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby eal22 » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 15:06

Working Class Rugger wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:There's a really bad quirk in this tournament format. Samoa won zero matches and qualified for the Quarter Finals, Ireland won 2 matches and didn't qualify. Anyway....

Yes, USA were again terrible, I can't imagine them or Canada being much better in 8 years time. It doesn't even look like the tournament is going to match the crowd numbers of 2013, even if they were to sell out every venue for the rest of the tournament they're going to barley equal the numbers of tickets sold 4 years ago.


I get into arguments with League fans all the time about this. But if League are genuine about growing the game into markets like the US they are going to have actually engage in some legitimate development work. Which in all likelihood will take decades to see any real return. But instead they go for instant gratification time and time again. Like the Wolfpack. They brag that they have the only professional Rugby team of any kind in Nth America. Filled almost entirely with imports and engaging in exactly zero development work.

While within that market and directly south in the US a new Rugby Union league is establishing with 7 teams in its first season and probably 10-12 in its second with a strong likelihood of one in the Wolfpacks catchment that as part of signing on to that league are mandated to engage in development works.

I get accused regularly of hating League. I don't. I grew up watching and playing the game equally as much as I did Rugby. But I have long lost interest in the game long ago. I don't wish it any ill but it's become far to structured and unpredictable for my tastes. So my suggestion will always fall on deaf ears.



The Wolfpack are drawing crowds of over 7,000 in Toronto which is a notoriously difficult city for sporting teams other than the Maple Leafs. That in itself is development. If a soccer team is filled with imports nobody minds, yet when Rugby League does it is suddenly a problem? There is not a single Rugby Union franchise in North America that has ever come close to the success of the Wolfpack, Union could learn a lot from them.

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby Neptune » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 16:52

Working Class Rugger wrote:
Neptune wrote:How does Ireland fail to win a game and still make it to the quarter finals, yet Samoa wins two games, but can't make it? The things that happen in Rugby League baffle me.


Ugh..you've got the backwards. It's Ireland that won two games and missed out while Samoa who drew 1 and lost the other 2 qualify.


oooh, sorry, either way, how does that even happen?

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby MikeN » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 20:04

sk 88 wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
MikeN wrote:actually no, your son is not a perfect example.
He is one example, perhaps even an extreme example. And if he doesn't feel English then he doesn't have to play for them.
You can find extreme examples for the other criteria as well.


Not that extreme. My youngest kid will have 90 years in between if chosing to play for the Czech Republic at the age of 20.

But apart from this, I agree those are rare cases. The grandparent rule makes sure you can quite surely play for the country you hold the passport for:
A guy I know was born in another country due to the closest hospital being over the boarder. If he has kids while working abroad, his kids won't be able to play for their country under some circumstances.
I would be for a parent or citizen rule. Get rid of the 3/5 year rule as well then.



Well there is the residency rule, with its new little quirk which I forget the full details of but which designed for people who grow up in a country they otherwise would not qualify for and then move away.

Arguably the ONLY fair rule should be based on residency, after all what are we meant to be watching in international sport? Who has the biggest dispora or which countries own grown players are the best?


What about players that for example move from Tonga to France when they are 22, and play and reside there for ten years?

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby Working Class Rugger » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 20:15

eal22 wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:There's a really bad quirk in this tournament format. Samoa won zero matches and qualified for the Quarter Finals, Ireland won 2 matches and didn't qualify. Anyway....

Yes, USA were again terrible, I can't imagine them or Canada being much better in 8 years time. It doesn't even look like the tournament is going to match the crowd numbers of 2013, even if they were to sell out every venue for the rest of the tournament they're going to barley equal the numbers of tickets sold 4 years ago.


I get into arguments with League fans all the time about this. But if League are genuine about growing the game into markets like the US they are going to have actually engage in some legitimate development work. Which in all likelihood will take decades to see any real return. But instead they go for instant gratification time and time again. Like the Wolfpack. They brag that they have the only professional Rugby team of any kind in Nth America. Filled almost entirely with imports and engaging in exactly zero development work.

While within that market and directly south in the US a new Rugby Union league is establishing with 7 teams in its first season and probably 10-12 in its second with a strong likelihood of one in the Wolfpacks catchment that as part of signing on to that league are mandated to engage in development works.

I get accused regularly of hating League. I don't. I grew up watching and playing the game equally as much as I did Rugby. But I have long lost interest in the game long ago. I don't wish it any ill but it's become far to structured and unpredictable for my tastes. So my suggestion will always fall on deaf ears.



The Wolfpack are drawing crowds of over 7,000 in Toronto which is a notoriously difficult city for sporting teams other than the Maple Leafs. That in itself is development. If a soccer team is filled with imports nobody minds, yet when Rugby League does it is suddenly a problem? There is not a single Rugby Union franchise in North America that has ever come close to the success of the Wolfpack, Union could learn a lot from them.


You're mistaking marketing for development. The Wolfpack have done a great job marketing their product to new and existing (in terms of Rugby fans) viewers in Toronto. No denying that. But that's not development. What are they doing to engage more people with the sport in and around Toronto in the sense of actually playing it?

This is part of my point about imports. For a young Soccer fan in a city they can play the sport they follow and conceivably if good enough rises through the ranks to eventually possibly play for their team. Yes, there could be a majority imported talent but there's still that link. Unfortunately, the League way isn't to go into the community based around them and put in the hard yards to do this. It's to place a team in a location and pound its chest. If this achieves anything it glacial in it's progression. Which doesn't help anyone.

A prime example is the Melbourne Storm. They'll celebrate 20 years in the NRL next season. A team that has been wildly successful. They've won something like 5 Premierships in that time (if you include the two they had stripped for cap rorts) but only this year could they boast more than 4,000 participants statewide ( and a number of them were schools clinic participants which are rubbery at best). It's drip feed at best.

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 21:14

MikeN wrote:
sk 88 wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
MikeN wrote:actually no, your son is not a perfect example.
He is one example, perhaps even an extreme example. And if he doesn't feel English then he doesn't have to play for them.
You can find extreme examples for the other criteria as well.


Not that extreme. My youngest kid will have 90 years in between if chosing to play for the Czech Republic at the age of 20.

But apart from this, I agree those are rare cases. The grandparent rule makes sure you can quite surely play for the country you hold the passport for:
A guy I know was born in another country due to the closest hospital being over the boarder. If he has kids while working abroad, his kids won't be able to play for their country under some circumstances.
I would be for a parent or citizen rule. Get rid of the 3/5 year rule as well then.



Well there is the residency rule, with its new little quirk which I forget the full details of but which designed for people who grow up in a country they otherwise would not qualify for and then move away.

Arguably the ONLY fair rule should be based on residency, after all what are we meant to be watching in international sport? Who has the biggest dispora or which countries own grown players are the best?


What about players that for example move from Tonga to France when they are 22, and play and reside there for ten years?



What about them? If you've lived a third of your life in a country it seems fair enough to me!

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby NaBUru38 » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 21:40

ihateblazers wrote: I've always thought 13 a side rugby union could be the way to go. I think the field is just too congested to be honest with 15 players per side. Especially with modern structures and defence systems, even at social level.


I agree, rugby union 13s would be interesting.

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby grande » Mon, 13 Nov 2017, 23:26

Working Class Rugger wrote:
eal22 wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:There's a really bad quirk in this tournament format. Samoa won zero matches and qualified for the Quarter Finals, Ireland won 2 matches and didn't qualify. Anyway....

Yes, USA were again terrible, I can't imagine them or Canada being much better in 8 years time. It doesn't even look like the tournament is going to match the crowd numbers of 2013, even if they were to sell out every venue for the rest of the tournament they're going to barley equal the numbers of tickets sold 4 years ago.


I get into arguments with League fans all the time about this. But if League are genuine about growing the game into markets like the US they are going to have actually engage in some legitimate development work. Which in all likelihood will take decades to see any real return. But instead they go for instant gratification time and time again. Like the Wolfpack. They brag that they have the only professional Rugby team of any kind in Nth America. Filled almost entirely with imports and engaging in exactly zero development work.

While within that market and directly south in the US a new Rugby Union league is establishing with 7 teams in its first season and probably 10-12 in its second with a strong likelihood of one in the Wolfpacks catchment that as part of signing on to that league are mandated to engage in development works.

I get accused regularly of hating League. I don't. I grew up watching and playing the game equally as much as I did Rugby. But I have long lost interest in the game long ago. I don't wish it any ill but it's become far to structured and unpredictable for my tastes. So my suggestion will always fall on deaf ears.



The Wolfpack are drawing crowds of over 7,000 in Toronto which is a notoriously difficult city for sporting teams other than the Maple Leafs. That in itself is development. If a soccer team is filled with imports nobody minds, yet when Rugby League does it is suddenly a problem? There is not a single Rugby Union franchise in North America that has ever come close to the success of the Wolfpack, Union could learn a lot from them.


You're mistaking marketing for development. The Wolfpack have done a great job marketing their product to new and existing (in terms of Rugby fans) viewers in Toronto. No denying that. But that's not development. What are they doing to engage more people with the sport in and around Toronto in the sense of actually playing it?

This is part of my point about imports. For a young Soccer fan in a city they can play the sport they follow and conceivably if good enough rises through the ranks to eventually possibly play for their team. Yes, there could be a majority imported talent but there's still that link. Unfortunately, the League way isn't to go into the community based around them and put in the hard yards to do this. It's to place a team in a location and pound its chest. If this achieves anything it glacial in it's progression. Which doesn't help anyone.

A prime example is the Melbourne Storm. They'll celebrate 20 years in the NRL next season. A team that has been wildly successful. They've won something like 5 Premierships in that time (if you include the two they had stripped for cap rorts) but only this year could they boast more than 4,000 participants statewide ( and a number of them were schools clinic participants which are rubbery at best). It's drip feed at best.


Well, I've heard they're doing training with some of the local clubs, and they sponsored Rugby Ontario's Sevens tournament (Magnificent Sevens). They're not doing a tonne... but they're doing more with the clubs than Rugby Canada's done lately.

They've made people care about a sport that basically did not exist here before. When non-rugby people hear "rugby," they think "Wolfpack" now.

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 14 Nov 2017, 00:08

We'll know more about the Wolfpacks long term future in the coming years, especially when the Ontario Arrows and a possible BC team finally join MLR in 2019. Catalans might be a successful club in France but has done little to help the game in France despite being in existence for 10 years now, and that's a traditional RL country. Wolfpack are going to have to rely on foreign talent for just as long if not longer before any real development is made in Canada. That's even if they are concerned with development, they may very well be happy to work with rugby clubs in Canada.

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby olivier » Sat, 18 Nov 2017, 13:13

Nobody cares but Fiji ousted NZ 4-2 this morning. Fiji union should hire league defense coach...

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby 4N » Sat, 18 Nov 2017, 13:22

Lebanon gave Tonga a scare. Future of international RL looks bright.

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby eal22 » Sat, 18 Nov 2017, 13:24

These QF results are huge for international Rugby League.

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby Thomas » Sat, 18 Nov 2017, 15:59

I am not surprised about the FIJI - NZ result. how may Tonga players defected from NZ from the eve of the world cup put their plans in disarray. until they sort out the eligibility issue it will continue to be a problem.

In the commentary they were talking about Hayne returning to the Kangaroos ? seriously? Do they make the rules as they go along?

Also Lebanese players are eligible for the Green and Gold and State of Origin. I take any development with a pinch of salt.

It seems Australia have 3 teams in this tournament:

Australia
Lebanon
Italy

NZ have 2 squads in effect as 8 current NZ Players defected to Tonga including 1 Australian player does that mean all will be forgiven after the World Cup and business as usual or all this players will forgo State of Origin and tours to the UK?

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Re: Rugby League World Cup 2017

Postby sk 88 » Sat, 18 Nov 2017, 20:34

To be fair SOO is about the players from Queensland and NSW. You can be Lebonese and from NSW so availability for that is totally fair enough.

They do need to sort out the ability to switch at will.

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