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2018 June Internationals

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby Figaro » Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 12:18

Argentina's decline is a bit concerning. To lose three games at home against anyone is bad, and though Wales played well they were hardly a vintage side - they struggled to beat a 3rd-choice South Africa a week before - and were missing quite a number of their 1st XV players. Same case with Scotland the week afterward. I think I read somewhere that it's something like 2 years since Argentina last beat a tier 1 side besides Italy. It's hard too look past a whitewash in the Rugby Championship, especially with South Africa starting to look like their own recent decline has been reversed or at least halted. And they're in the group of death at the World Cup! Hopefully this is just a blip; the Jaguares have been doing very well so this was a bit of a surprise.

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 12:32

Using the tables on the T2 v T2 thread and updating them for games since the RWC I get the following:


Code: Select all
Team        Mat    Won    Lost    Draw    %Win   
New Zealand    27    25    2    0    92.59    
England             29    23    6    0    79.31    
Ireland        26    17    8    1    67.30    
Scotland        22    13    9    0    59.09    
Wales        28    14    13    1    51.78    
South Africa     29    13    14    2    48.27    
Australia        30    12    16    2    43.33    
France        27    8    19    0    29.62    
Argentina        26    4    22    0    15.38    
Italy                22    1    21    0    4.54    

Argentina's wins were 11 June 2016 v Italy at home, 19 June 2016 v France at home, 27 August 2016 v SA at home and the 18 Nov 2017 v Italy in Italy.

Italy's win against SA in 2016 is there only T1 win since the 2015 RWC.

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby Figaro » Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 12:56

Not really like for like because the fixture lists aren't the same, e.g. Argentina play New Zealand twice per year, wheras Ireland get to play both Scotland and Italy once per year and only play NZ perhaps every other year or so. But yes, Italy and Argentina are starting to look like a sort of T1.5.

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 13:17

It's amazing what a different coach can do to essentially the same playing group. I still think they have to relax their overseas players policy for the national team. The Jags being in Super Rugby is great and all but there's a wealth of talent over in Europe who I'm certain would play for the team if they were allowed to.

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby Figaro » Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 14:44

thatrugbyguy wrote:It's amazing what a different coach can do to essentially the same playing group. I still think they have to relax their overseas players policy for the national team. The Jags being in Super Rugby is great and all but there's a wealth of talent over in Europe who I'm certain would play for the team if they were allowed to.


I think the Autralian/Welsh approach, i.e. home players only but once you have X caps you can leave and play elsewhere and still get picked, is the best for teams like us and Argentina, who aren't going to be able to have a domestic scene wealthy enough to compete financially with the Franglais but still want to have their stars playing for local sides. Changing the system here in Wales has definitely brought several players back, even for the chance of playing Rugby, who might otherwise have stayed away.

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby carbonero » Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 16:59

I don’t really care that much about Jaguares. The Pumas should be the priority. However, relaxing the rule would be a death sentence for the franchise.
I’m fine with that. We should roll the dice. Maybe we become the Cheetahs 2.0. A fun young team who never makes the playoffs.

Now the UAR has no option. There will be at least five players called for the TRC. I think we should wait for this weekend before predicting a whitewash. The younger players wanted Hourcade out. Maybe they turn it up again after his dismissal.

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby Canalina » Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 18:25

According to a graphic published in our italian forum, it's the first time that the average ranking points of the best five european teams overcome the average ranking points of the four "The Championship" nations

Image

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby dropkick » Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 19:52

Canalina wrote:According to a graphic published in our italian forum, it's the first time that the average ranking points of the best five european teams overcome the average ranking points of the four "The Championship" nations

Image


Interesting graph, Canalina. Since 2008 the gap has steadily closed. Not much between many of the teams now besides New Zealand who are out on their own.

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby sk 88 » Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 19:58

Figaro wrote:Not really like for like because the fixture lists aren't the same, e.g. Argentina play New Zealand twice per year, wheras Ireland get to play both Scotland and Italy once per year and only play NZ perhaps every other year or so. But yes, Italy and Argentina are starting to look like a sort of T1.5.



Argentina have played NZ 4 times in that sequence and so have Wales. With Argentina getting more home games in that span. With the 3 match tours and large number of November games T1 teams actually have pretty similar number of matches against NH and SH teams.

Argentina for instance has played 14 games v NH opposition and 12 games v SH opposition.

Wales has 16 games v NH and 12 games v SH.

I'm personally not convinced there is much in it, it seems like Australia and SA just have very similar records to Wales and Scotland, whilst Ireland and England have been getting much better results than either.

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby Immenso » Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 21:55

Figaro wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:It's amazing what a different coach can do to essentially the same playing group. I still think they have to relax their overseas players policy for the national team. The Jags being in Super Rugby is great and all but there's a wealth of talent over in Europe who I'm certain would play for the team if they were allowed to.


I think the Autralian/Welsh approach, i.e. home players only but once you have X caps you can leave and play elsewhere and still get picked, is the best for teams like us and Argentina, who aren't going to be able to have a domestic scene wealthy enough to compete financially with the Franglais but still want to have their stars playing for local sides. Changing the system here in Wales has definitely brought several players back, even for the chance of playing Rugby, who might otherwise have stayed away.


The thing about the home-based players rule, the Jaguares and the Pumas - is that the TRC isn't played in an international window. The championship is played during the summer break for any European based players and then overlaps with the start of the European domestic season.

The UAR need control over their players to be able to play in that compeition. I'm sure 5 European based players would be manageable, but if we're talking the entire starting 15 for an extreme example. They could theoretically all be unavailable for the last 2 rounds, plus some might get enforced rest by their clubs.

It's a tricky one for the UAR to manage.

Ideally, I'd probably want something like you mention. A caps based threshold above which they can pick overseas based players. But, judging by the Paul Tait article in ARN - it appears Argentinians value the European experience their young players get playing pro club rugby in France. Where as Australians probably view young players moving too soon as dulling their skills in bosh rugby. Different cultural viewpoints?

So you probably want young players going to Europe. Jaguares target the cream of the players to come back at about age 22 to play for about 3 years. Pumas restrict themsleves to select the home players plus those overseas who have X(30) number of tests or X(3) previousloy played number of years for the Jaguares. By maintaining a solid home crop they can't have the rug pulled totally out from under them by European clubs, but they lose some control but gain some talent.

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby YamahaKiwi » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 00:50

carbonero wrote:I don’t really care that much about Jaguares. The Pumas should be the priority. However, relaxing the rule would be a death sentence for the franchise.
I’m fine with that. We should roll the dice. Maybe we become the Cheetahs 2.0. A fun young team who never makes the playoffs.

Now the UAR has no option. There will be at least five players called for the TRC. I think we should wait for this weekend before predicting a whitewash. The younger players wanted Hourcade out. Maybe they turn it up again after his dismissal.


If Argentina takes that kind of approach to SR they'll be turfed out and then you won't even have a franchise. None of the other SANZAAR partners want a team in SR for development purposes. This is a professional league. Either you are in it to win or you shouldn't be in at all. Even though the Sunwolves has a developmental accent to it, they have still been going into each game to win and get as many victories as possible. The fact they haven't produced more victories this year, and internal Japanese rugby politics with the JRFU trying to promote the Sunwolves while managing their relationship with Top League corporations and trying to get more buy in from those companies, already has the NZ media saying they face the chop in 2020. It was in the NZ media late last year that the NZRFU had already told the JRFU to get its act together over the Sunwolves or they will not support an extension. When the ABs go to Japan late this year with NZRFU chiefs in tow I fully expect there to probably be more terse words said behind the smiles. In contrast the NZ media has been fullsome of its praise of the Jaguares form this year and nothing of the same sort criticism and threats levelled at the Sunwolves has been uttered. It would be a shame if the development of the Jaguares strength was wasted.

Argentina needs a 2nd franchise come 2020, even if it means private investment is required. While as a NZer I personally prefer home based players where your national team management has full control over playing time, rest, practice, diet etc, I could go with say a 50 caps/7 years service overseas exemption clause. But the union in those exceptions has to work out a cast iron agreement with the player's club because it's not just a matter of being available for a test, it's also being released far enough ahead that the player(s) are in camp with the home based players and up with the plan for the team, otherwise it could be a waste of time, and infact hurt the team performance.

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby carbonero » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 01:19

The second franchise is impossible. That pipe dream has been finished long ago.

They should open the floodgates and let the players decide the best for their lives. It is shameful to use the Puma shirt to artificially drop their earning power. If the franchise folds after 2020, tough luck, there is nothing we can do.

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby YamahaKiwi » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 01:51

The players can already decide what's best for them. They can put themselves first and go to Europe for the money. It's not like the UAR is barring them from doing that.

It's a pity you have such an ambivalent attitude to professional rugby development within your own country. It the Jaguares were to be dissolved that would be very sad for your country's rugby development. maybe in the long term the South American pro league would replace that but certainly in the short term it would not offer anything like the same level of competition for your domestic players. Yes, you did well when all your players were based in France, but not well enough that you were really competitive with the RC teams and I don't think long term going down that route again is going to bring you to super power status, especially as more countries develop their own pro leagues and improve themselves. Going down that route means you are always going to have to tiptoe to get agreement from club owners who could just as easily change their minds. Coming to your national team, it's ALWAYS about best access to your players. Now if you don't care about your national team's results, then no problem. But if you do...

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby carbonero » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 02:14

YamahaKiwi wrote:The players can already decide what's best for them. They can put themselves first and go to Europe for the money. It's not like the UAR is barring them from doing that.

It’s not only the money. It’s the quality of life. Playing in Jaguares/Pumas means being five months away from your house. What if you are married? What if you have kids? Lucas Noguera Paz moved to Bath to become a doctor. He couldn’t do that here with all the travel. Should we penalize him for that?

YamahaKiwi wrote:Coming to your national team, it's ALWAYS about best access to your players. Now if you don't care about your national team's results, then no problem. But if you do...

The Pumas are 6-22 since the RWC

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby YamahaKiwi » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 02:35

Yes I know about pro rugby players lives. Our players cope with the same things given we are a pretty isolated country. Of course with more than one team in NZ it's not as bad as the Jaguares but the players are still away from home a lot more than players in Europe. So the same reason is also one our players leave NZ so they can have more family time, whether it be in Europe or Japan. It's part of the pro rugby landscape in the SH so you have to deal with it. Unfortunately unlike Europe we don't have a cluster of fairly populous nations close together. that's just a geographical fact. It's your choice as a player to accept that or leave. again it's also the reason why some Japanese players, particularly in the first two SR seasons didn't make themselves available for the Sunwolves. Even the coach the JRFU initially wanted for the Sunwolves, Robbie Deans declined because he'd already done SR, and didn't want all the travel involved again. So sure playing pro rugby in the SH requires sacrifices, but if you can't deal with some sacrifices for being able to play your sport for not only enjoyment but financial reward as well, then maybe you don't deserve to play for the national team. You are probably better off playing socially or at an amateur competitive level in the URBA club league or some such and instead doing a normal full time job like the rest of us. That is not a slur on amateur guys in wholly amateur level countries who have no opportunity to play pro rugby and play for a national team ala Portugal etc

Yes I know Argentina's post RWC record. But if you had no pro players within ARG and just banked on your overseas pros in the long term you'd be in no better position. Remember the previous Pumas coach was already having issues with availability of overseas based Pumas for mid year tests. That's why I say, you need both PRO players in AG itself, and availability of some of your overseas pros, and therefore I think it's unfortunate your attitude to pro rugby in ARG is negative as far your country's longterm rugby development goes, my opinion only of course :) .

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby carbonero » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 03:26

YamahaKiwi wrote: So sure playing pro rugby in the SH requires sacrifices, but if you can't deal with some sacrifices for being able to play your sport for not only enjoyment but financial reward as well, then maybe you don't deserve to play for the national team. You are probably better off playing socially or at an amateur competitive level in the URBA club league or some such and instead doing a normal full time job like the rest of us.

Yeah but the sacrifices are harsher for our players. The travel is worse both in terms of miles and time difference. The time away from their houses is worse. The NZ franchises play six away games in Oceania so they can still sleep in the comfort of their houses. We don't have that luxury. And some players are severely underpaid. Imhoff is making three times more than Creevy. Then you have the negativity of losing every fucking game, dealing with the amateur dumbnuts of the UAR, dealing with Pichot’s business cronies, etc.

How many years can you endure that type of life? That’s why I’m pessimistic about the long term sustainability of the franchise. A normal human being will leave after 3-4 years.

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 09:43

Italy and Argentina have proved that more control and more access does not generate better results on its own.

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby JamesWales » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 09:57

Rugby teams should pick their best players. End of.

At the very least, the UAR should have a policy of picking overseas players, as long as they've played more than 25 caps or so.

This would encourage younger players to stay in Buenos Aires, while allowing older players to gain experience abroad.

I'm never quite sure why rugby gets its knickers in such a twist about this. It isn't rocket science. Pick. Your. Best. Team.

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby honestly_united » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 15:05

Figaro wrote:Not really like for like because the fixture lists aren't the same, e.g. Argentina play New Zealand twice per year, wheras Ireland get to play both Scotland and Italy once per year and only play NZ perhaps every other year or so. But yes, Italy and Argentina are starting to look like a sort of T1.5.


That will be the same Scotland that are above Wales in the table then... :roll:

Maybe you should have written "whereas Ireland get to play both Wales and Italy once per year"!

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby Figaro » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 15:21

honestly_united wrote:
Figaro wrote:Not really like for like because the fixture lists aren't the same, e.g. Argentina play New Zealand twice per year, wheras Ireland get to play both Scotland and Italy once per year and only play NZ perhaps every other year or so. But yes, Italy and Argentina are starting to look like a sort of T1.5.


That will be the same Scotland that are above Wales in the table then... :roll:

Maybe you should have written "whereas Ireland get to play both Wales and Italy once per year"!


Wow, you took that very personally. I won't bother mentioning what happened the last time Wales played Scotland then, or out better record in the 6N/5N/whatever, and our better record in the World cup, or our better record against most T1 teams over the past few years, or any of the other reasons I might point out to suggest that maybe the rankings might not have that one exactly right. :lol:

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 17:34

Figaro wrote:
honestly_united wrote:
Figaro wrote:Not really like for like because the fixture lists aren't the same, e.g. Argentina play New Zealand twice per year, wheras Ireland get to play both Scotland and Italy once per year and only play NZ perhaps every other year or so. But yes, Italy and Argentina are starting to look like a sort of T1.5.


That will be the same Scotland that are above Wales in the table then... :roll:

Maybe you should have written "whereas Ireland get to play both Wales and Italy once per year"!


Wow, you took that very personally. I won't bother mentioning what happened the last time Wales played Scotland then, or out better record in the 6N/5N/whatever, and our better record in the World cup, or our better record against most T1 teams over the past few years, or any of the other reasons I might point out to suggest that maybe the rankings might not have that one exactly right. :lol:



I mean to be fair, that is exactly what he is pointing out that you DON'T have. Scotland's T1 v T1 record since 2015 RWC is P22 W13 59% wins, Wales' record is Played 28 W14 D1 for 51.78% wins.

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby Canalina » Wed, 27 Jun 2018, 08:09

Positions and points gained (or lost) after the june tests

Image

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby Figaro » Wed, 27 Jun 2018, 12:01

sk 88 wrote:
Figaro wrote:
honestly_united wrote:
Figaro wrote:Not really like for like because the fixture lists aren't the same, e.g. Argentina play New Zealand twice per year, wheras Ireland get to play both Scotland and Italy once per year and only play NZ perhaps every other year or so. But yes, Italy and Argentina are starting to look like a sort of T1.5.


That will be the same Scotland that are above Wales in the table then... :roll:

Maybe you should have written "whereas Ireland get to play both Wales and Italy once per year"!


Wow, you took that very personally. I won't bother mentioning what happened the last time Wales played Scotland then, or out better record in the 6N/5N/whatever, and our better record in the World cup, or our better record against most T1 teams over the past few years, or any of the other reasons I might point out to suggest that maybe the rankings might not have that one exactly right. :lol:


I mean to be fair, that is exactly what he is pointing out that you DON'T have. Scotland's T1 v T1 record since 2015 RWC is P22 W13 59% wins, Wales' record is Played 28 W14 D1 for 51.78% wins.


Well if you want to only pick games since the WC, (in terms of game % won) Scotland have a better record against England and Australia (2). Wales have a better record against Ireland and South Africa (2). They have equal records against France (both won 2 lost 1), Italy (won all), Argentina (won all), and New Zealand (lost all). From matches between Scotland and Wales, Wales have the better head to head (1). So in terms of records vs other T1 nations, Wales win 3-2. And Wales' overall T1 record is mainly worse because of the (excessive) three match tour of New Zealand they did in 2016.

Also, I believe, since last weekend Wales are 3rd in the World rankings and Scotland 7th? So the statement that Scotland are above Wales in the table isn't true anyway.

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 27 Jun 2018, 19:03

He surely means the table in this thread, on this page, at least that was what I took him to mean.

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Re: 2018 June Internationals

Postby Figaro » Thu, 28 Jun 2018, 11:24

sk 88 wrote:He surely means the table in this thread, on this page, at least that was what I took him to mean.


Ah right - yes, then in that case, I concede, Scotland is higher in that table. But I guess my point is that the teams people actually play make a big difference to both rankings and records, if you make these kind of "what's our record vs. T1". Playing Italy X times obviously is likely to yield a better string of results vs T1, for any team, than playing NZ X times. That has to be taken into account. For whatever reason Wales seem to have a masochistic obsession with playing (and generally losing) against the Southern Hemisphere Big 3, which tends to depress our record/ranking relative to Scotland's more balanced schedule.

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