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2027 RWC bids

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby jservuk » Thu, 21 Jun 2018, 15:36

sk 88 wrote:
jservuk wrote:England fan numbers are lower because there hasn't been the usual false high hopes.

In fact there has been some suggestion that people have fallen out of love with the England national football team because of the manner of recent failures. If true, then it's a pity that the England RU team had a poor home World Cup, is in a poor run of form, and the RFU has behaved in generally mildly distasteful manner wrt purple kits, too many kit changes, the in your face all black kit in 2011.

They could have made big in-roads to take advantage of the football malaise and relative apathy.

I do fear for all other sports in England for what would happen if the football team actually won the World Cup.



Well 21 million people watched the Tunisia game, 18m on TV and 3m on iPlayer, so we can safely put that one to bed.


My point was that there was certainly a period of deep apathy towards the national football team that has never been seen before, and I was lamenting the fact that Rugby was not able to capitalise on it. Ye, now that it's "game on", people are coming out of the woodwork again.

How does 21m compare te England RU World CUp 2015 TV audiences?

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby welshdragon2000 » Thu, 21 Jun 2018, 15:45

jservuk wrote:
sk 88 wrote:
jservuk wrote:England fan numbers are lower because there hasn't been the usual false high hopes.

In fact there has been some suggestion that people have fallen out of love with the England national football team because of the manner of recent failures. If true, then it's a pity that the England RU team had a poor home World Cup, is in a poor run of form, and the RFU has behaved in generally mildly distasteful manner wrt purple kits, too many kit changes, the in your face all black kit in 2011.

They could have made big in-roads to take advantage of the football malaise and relative apathy.

I do fear for all other sports in England for what would happen if the football team actually won the World Cup.



Well 21 million people watched the Tunisia game, 18m on TV and 3m on iPlayer, so we can safely put that one to bed.


My point was that there was certainly a period of deep apathy towards the national football team that has never been seen before, and I was lamenting the fact that Rugby was not able to capitalise on it. Ye, now that it's "game on", people are coming out of the woodwork again.

How does 21m compare te England RU World CUp 2015 TV audiences?

11.6m watched Wales vs England on itv at the world cup apparently and that was the highest rugby viewing figure for 8 years. Not sure if this includes streaming figures though so there is a significant difference there with football audiences.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby Blurandski » Thu, 21 Jun 2018, 18:53

21m is the high water mark for football though, iirc the Euros drew around what the 6N draw.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 22 Jun 2018, 08:18

RugbyLiebe wrote:And no I am not saying that no Argentinians are going to a RWC in the USA. I am stating, that, due to tougher visa conditions it is harder for Argentinians to go to the USA than for most other rugby hotbed fans, which will likely reduce the overall number of Argentinians.

TheStroBro wrote:You're the one saying that Argentines don't go anywhere because they don't want to attend an appointment to get a visa.


:roll:

TheStroBro wrote:The point is that travel visa restrictions are a non-issue. That it is harder to get a visa to France or Germany than it is to the US for vacation or study.

TheStroBro wrote:Cool that Argentines don't need a visa for Germany, don't care.


:roll:
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Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby YamahaKiwi » Fri, 22 Jun 2018, 09:31

RugbyLiebe wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
Or are you having a rough day logic wise. People in the poorhouse are not attending the world cup. Coming across oceans is expensive in it's own right. We're talking a minimum of this being a 4-5k trip. So are you saying that Argentines don't travel anywhere in the world because going to an embassy or consulate is just too harsh? Give me a break. People in the states do the same thing that live in the middle of the country, they take the plane flight or drive all day to get to a consulate appointment. Give me a break.


Maybe a break at Disneyland would do you good. I was stating the mere fact, that your analogy that many foreigners go to visit Mickey Mouse has nothing to do with that it is not that easy to get a visa to the US from Argentina. You haven't stated that there are many Argentinians at Disneyland, which would have been a logical conclusion.
And no I am not saying that no Argentinians are going to a RWC in the USA. I am stating, that, due to tougher visa conditions it is harder for Argentinians to go to the USA than for most other rugby hotbed fans, which will likely reduce the overall number of Argentinians. Or as Tobar, on spot wrote, bring in a layer.

YamahaKiwi wrote:About 10K came to NZ which was more than the IRE, WAL etc


It was 3k (interesting read about all tourists during RWC 2011 in the following link). But still impressive and actually more than Japan (closely not Ireland though).

"Most of the RWC visitors were from RWC participant countries such as Australia (55,500), France (11,500), South Africa (8,600), England (7,000),
the USA (5,400), Ireland (4,100), Argentina (3,000) and Japan (2,800)."
page 3 + see great graphic on page 8.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... 94yAtrKwiw


That 3K number is interesting. I definitely heard 10K mentioned on either NZ or UK tv broadcast of ENG v ARG game.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 22 Jun 2018, 09:35

YamahaKiwi wrote:[
That 3K number is interesting. I definitely heard 10K mentioned on either NZ or UK tv broadcast of ENG v ARG game.


Well a lot of Argentinians have Italian, Spanish or German passports, so maybe they bring it to 6k and than 10k is just rounded :D
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby jservuk » Fri, 22 Jun 2018, 12:20

Blurandski wrote:21m is the high water mark for football though, iirc the Euros drew around what the 6N draw.


Not sure what you mean by a high water mark for football .. I reckon England getting to the quarter final and beyond would smash that 21m. The audiences for England games prior to 2010 were huge, and I reckon if they progressed to the quarters and beyond that 21m would be smashed. Also the England Wales game in Euro 2016 was a weekday afternoon kick-off, not the made for TV prime time of 6N.

But back to my point about lost opportunity for England RU, after the football failures and performances of 2010 , 2012, and 2014, there was a palpable lack of enthusiasm for getting behind the team. A successful RWC 2015 for England would have had an interesting effect given the back drop of relative apathy for the football team.

I am watching Japan's performance in Russia with interest to see if the expected early exit would enthuse the nation towards the RWC 2019 effort and push RU further up in popularity. The rascals went and won their first game though ... drat!!!


Regarding the topic of 2027 hosts. SA, Aus, USA,likely to be strong candidates. My outside bet for a surprise bid would be Russia or Spain/Portugal (definitely 2031).

However, if someone get's their act together and we get a Rugby Euros in the next 10 years, then we would see RWC going to more far flung places since Europe would have the Euros to balance out hosting.

It's silly for RU not to have a Euros - football shows that it works, is cheaper to run than a World Cup, and by all significant measures can legitimately claim to be 3rd biggest behind WC and Olympics. Why on earth can't RU see this and join the party?

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby welshdragon2000 » Fri, 22 Jun 2018, 14:20

Although I like the idea of a euros style tournament, there just isn't the number of competitive sides. You could potentially us the Six Nations and ERC teams and split them into 3 groups of 4 then use the same format as the U20 World Championship. However I'm not a fan of that setup as it's a bit confusing and there's too many negatives for it. I think you need 16 sides that could compete in order for it to work then have 4 groups of 4. Outside the Six Nations and the ERC there's only really Portugal that would be remotely competitive and perhaps the Netherlands at a push. Still a fair few years away from this I say.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby Blurandski » Fri, 22 Jun 2018, 14:30

welshdragon2000 wrote:Although I like the idea of a euros style tournament, there just isn't the number of competitive sides. You could potentially us the Six Nations and ERC teams and split them into 3 groups of 4 then use the same format as the U20 World Championship. However I'm not a fan of that setup as it's a bit confusing and there's too many negatives for it. I think you need 16 sides that could compete in order for it to work then have 4 groups of 4. Outside the Six Nations and the ERC there's only really Portugal that would be remotely competitive and perhaps the Netherlands at a push. Still a fair few years away from this I say.


4*3 would be by far the better format, either fewer games or a quarter finals could be added.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 22 Jun 2018, 16:28

RugbyLiebe wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:And no I am not saying that no Argentinians are going to a RWC in the USA. I am stating, that, due to tougher visa conditions it is harder for Argentinians to go to the USA than for most other rugby hotbed fans, which will likely reduce the overall number of Argentinians.

TheStroBro wrote:You're the one saying that Argentines don't go anywhere because they don't want to attend an appointment to get a visa.


:roll:

TheStroBro wrote:The point is that travel visa restrictions are a non-issue. That it is harder to get a visa to France or Germany than it is to the US for vacation or study.

TheStroBro wrote:Cool that Argentines don't need a visa for Germany, don't care.


:roll:


:shock: You're only focusing on Argentines but apparently don't care for the fact that people everywhere in the world make the times to attend visa appointments so they can travel for Vacation. If people want to go certain places, they get their visa. I did it for France in 2009, had a great time. If you're saying that it's too much a hassle to get to Buenos Aires or Berlin or Paris etc I just can't help you. Again, it's not about visas, it's about calendar and how long this is scheduled out. An Argentine specifically or a German will have years in advance to plan for a trip to the US should the US host a WC.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby Coloradoan » Fri, 22 Jun 2018, 19:56

TheStroBro wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:And no I am not saying that no Argentinians are going to a RWC in the USA. I am stating, that, due to tougher visa conditions it is harder for Argentinians to go to the USA than for most other rugby hotbed fans, which will likely reduce the overall number of Argentinians.

TheStroBro wrote:You're the one saying that Argentines don't go anywhere because they don't want to attend an appointment to get a visa.


:roll:

TheStroBro wrote:The point is that travel visa restrictions are a non-issue. That it is harder to get a visa to France or Germany than it is to the US for vacation or study.

TheStroBro wrote:Cool that Argentines don't need a visa for Germany, don't care.


:roll:


:shock: You're only focusing on Argentines but apparently don't care for the fact that people everywhere in the world make the times to attend visa appointments so they can travel for Vacation. If people want to go certain places, they get their visa. I did it for France in 2009, had a great time. If you're saying that it's too much a hassle to get to Buenos Aires or Berlin or Paris etc I just can't help you. Again, it's not about visas, it's about calendar and how long this is scheduled out. An Argentine specifically or a German will have years in advance to plan for a trip to the US should the US host a WC.


Why did you need a visa to go to France?

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby Kettleoffish » Fri, 22 Jun 2018, 21:02

My proposal for a European championship would be.

Once every 4 years in Lions years

2 pools of 6
Pool A : 6N -1st, 3rd & 5th ENC 2nd, 4th & 6th
Pool B : 6N - 2nd, 4th & 6th ENC 1st, 3rd & 5th

6N sides play ENC teams in each pool (3 games)

Top 2 in each pool Semis and Final/3rd 4th place play off.

3rd/4th each pool ranking 5th to 8th
5th & 6th each pool ranking 9th to 12th

If for example Georgia turned over Italy and Wales bereft of their Lions contingent in the pool they could potentially have 5 tests against T1 teams in 5 weeks (3 pool games, semi, and final or 3rd/4th place play off.

All sides get 5 games and all T2 sides get at least 3 matches against T1 teams(ok without the ones with the Lions)

I would also put the caveat that tournament is held in T2 country
Last edited by Kettleoffish on Fri, 22 Jun 2018, 21:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby YamahaKiwi » Fri, 22 Jun 2018, 21:23

Coloradoan wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:And no I am not saying that no Argentinians are going to a RWC in the USA. I am stating, that, due to tougher visa conditions it is harder for Argentinians to go to the USA than for most other rugby hotbed fans, which will likely reduce the overall number of Argentinians.

TheStroBro wrote:You're the one saying that Argentines don't go anywhere because they don't want to attend an appointment to get a visa.


:roll:

TheStroBro wrote:The point is that travel visa restrictions are a non-issue. That it is harder to get a visa to France or Germany than it is to the US for vacation or study.

TheStroBro wrote:Cool that Argentines don't need a visa for Germany, don't care.


:roll:


:shock: You're only focusing on Argentines but apparently don't care for the fact that people everywhere in the world make the times to attend visa appointments so they can travel for Vacation. If people want to go certain places, they get their visa. I did it for France in 2009, had a great time. If you're saying that it's too much a hassle to get to Buenos Aires or Berlin or Paris etc I just can't help you. Again, it's not about visas, it's about calendar and how long this is scheduled out. An Argentine specifically or a German will have years in advance to plan for a trip to the US should the US host a WC.


Why did you need a visa to go to France?


I think he previously said it was a longer term trip, student exchange or something.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby YamahaKiwi » Fri, 22 Jun 2018, 21:33

Kettleoffish wrote:My proposal for a European championship would be.

Once every 4 years in Lions years

2 pools of 6
Pool A : 6N -1st, 3rd & 5th ENC 2nd, 4th & 6th
Pool B : 6N - 2nd, 4th & 6th ENC 1st, 3rd & 5th

6N sides play ENC teams in each pool (3 games)

Top 2 in each pool Semis and Final/3rd 4th place play off.

3rd/4th each pool ranking 5th to 8th
5th & 6th each pool ranking 9th to 12th

If for example Georgia turned Italy over in the pool they could potentially have 5 tests against T1 teams in 5 weeks (3 pool games, semi, and final or 3rd/4th place play off.

All sides get 5 games and all T2 sides get at least 3 matches against T1 teams(ok without the ones with the Lions)

I would also put the caveat that tournament is held in T2 country


Given this would be just starting I would go for the humbler start of 4 x3 or 3x 4 pool format that is goung to lead to a shorter event time, and then build from there (aim to go for 16 teams after about 3 Euros like RWC did going to 20 in its 4th cup). Italy or Ireland would be a good choice first up as both unions are interested in hosting RWC. Hosting a Euro would be good event experience in that regard. Quite frankly given the success and growth of RWC, I can't believe a Euro champs has not been created.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby victorsra » Sat, 23 Jun 2018, 02:08

The big problem about the Lions year is that the British wouldn't (obviously) care about and without full strenght Home Nations France (or better: French fans) would have no reason to giveit importance, which means it would be much more lucrative for France to keep playing the second most lucrative tour of that month (behind the Lions tour) against one of All Blacks/Springboks/Wallabies. Therefore such tournament wont happen. Sorry.

Moreover there is no reason for the 6Ns to want a competition that will rival their 6N in importance. The 6N belongs to those Unions. It is quite clear why no one is talking about making a Euro Championship every 4 years.
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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby ihateblazers » Sat, 23 Jun 2018, 04:19

victorsra wrote:The big problem about the Lions year is that the British wouldn't (obviously) care about and without full strenght Home Nations France (or better: French fans) would have no reason to giveit importance, which means it would be much more lucrative for France to keep playing the second most lucrative tour of that month (behind the Lions tour) against one of All Blacks/Springboks/Wallabies. Therefore such tournament wont happen. Sorry.

Moreover there is no reason for the 6Ns to want a competition that will rival their 6N in importance. The 6N belongs to those Unions. It is quite clear why no one is talking about making a Euro Championship every 4 years.


The host nations keep all revenue though, touring nations get nothing out of June money wise. Also France has to send a weakened XV on the tour anyway because of the clash with the Top 14 plus their players are exhausted when they do join up with the squad. The French could instead give their top players a rest in this scenario.

Agree with your 2nd point but perhaps if the 6 nations unions could host the Euro then it would be attractive. Afterall money is all they care about

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby jservuk » Sat, 23 Jun 2018, 09:48

If you compare the financial benefits of UEFAs Euros to 6N I'm certain the former will dwarf the latter.

And yes, in the early stages a RU Euros would be small fry, but even the UEFA Euros only really got going properly in 1980 with a recognisable tournament format. The first 20 years it was a loose, formless competition played over 2 years I believe. In fact I think on one occasion the winners of the final were decided on the toss of a coin!! From such humble beginnings we now have something that many observers actually view as superior to the World Cup itself.

If RU formed a Euros, and the 6N unions played B teams, it would still be on a stronger platform than the football Euros were at the start. Moreover, I think you would find a sudden surge in interest from T2 euro nations competing.

Having the Euros would also give RU another vehicle for expansion through hosting, unalloyed by the politics of RWC hostig. They could take risks with hosting in Spain, Portugal, Italy, BeNeLux, Russia.

The only reason for not having Euros is fear of diluting the 6N, which in my opinion is toxic to the growth of the sport. I don't watch it anymore.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby STMKY » Sat, 23 Jun 2018, 09:53

Football World Cup 2026 in North America will be 48 teams! Now 32 in football, 20 in rugby. To keep up with the RWC 2023 in France you need 24 teams.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby RugbyLiebe » Sat, 23 Jun 2018, 09:55

TheStroBro wrote: :shock: You're only focusing on Argentines but apparently don't care for the fact that people everywhere in the world make the times to attend visa appointments so they can travel for Vacation. If people want to go certain places, they get their visa. I did it for France in 2009, had a great time. If you're saying that it's too much a hassle to get to Buenos Aires or Berlin or Paris etc I just can't help you. Again, it's not about visas, it's about calendar and how long this is scheduled out. An Argentine specifically or a German will have years in advance to plan for a trip to the US should the US host a WC.


-Off course I am focussing on Argentinians because initially we talked about that Canadians and Argentinians would come in droves. Read it up in this thread, which is not that big. You bring up things again and again I agreed with, but have a totally different correlation and basically nothing to do that for reasons Argentinians most likely won't come in drove as suggested.

- do you seriously bring up a trip to France in 2009? What does that have to do with a short visit from the other continental rugby hotbeds just for a rugby game or two at a RWC? But fair enough: here's a pat on your shoulder for being such a sophisticated and well travelled man.

Seriously work on your focus though.
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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby jservuk » Sat, 23 Jun 2018, 10:59

STMKY wrote:Football World Cup 2026 in North America will be 48 teams! Now 32 in football, 20 in rugby. To keep up with the RWC 2023 in France you need 24 teams.


I don't think think the argument for expansion should be because of how teams there are in FIFA.

But I am in 2 minds about going to 24; on the one hand I think the problem with expanding RWC now is that there is too big a gap between the top teams and the rest. On the other, I think bringing more teams in would help with spreading the game, but I think the 4 year cycle for this is too slow (hence why Euros would help).

In football there are fewer hammerings now, and even with 32 teams some of the big World Cup regulars (Italy, Netherlands, even USA) are missing, and a few good upper-mid level teams also are missing. Moreover, many of the games we see between big and small teams are being won on very fine margins. Also in football, they have the advantage that surprises results are more common, and have been for a long time - even if we go as far back as 1950 we see USA beat England, 1954 Germany beat Hungary, 1966 North Korea.

In Rugby things are different, though slowly improving. I think we will just have to accept blow-outs as a price to pay for RWC expansion, but let's not forget the joy that fans and players experience when they see their national anthem being played at these events, and the pride the fans and players show, even though they know they will not win. If we focus on this, and the growing of the sport aspect and accept the blow-outs, I think we can live with expansion to 24.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby ihateblazers » Sat, 23 Jun 2018, 12:00

Japan v Scotland
USA v France
Georgia v Wales

In 2019 those will be huge matches for t2 and possibly for the whole sport's future

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 23 Jun 2018, 13:07

I also think these are ones to watch out for, maybe not in terms of upsets, but in performance:

Fiji v Wales
Tonga v Argentina
USA v England
Samoa v Scotland

I also think the performances of Russia and Uruguay are going to go a long way to determining things. If those two teams can keep the score lines respectable, like 40 points or less, that would be great. Lets keep in mind the average score line for the world cup has been decreasing steadily consistently for the last 4 tournaments. Hopefully 2019 follows the trend. Pool C right now is the group most likely to be the most challenging. England, France and Argentina are all about equal currently, but it's going to be a very interesting 12 months to see where exactly Tonga and the US stand. I'm genuinely curious to see how the Eagles go against the Maori and Ireland. If they put up a good performance against both then you'd have to say they're an outside chance of causing some headaches for the T1 teams.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby jservuk » Sat, 23 Jun 2018, 13:54

Another thing we have overlooked so far in this thread, which is about how FIFA awarding their 2026 tournament to MexUSACan could influence whether RWC 2027 goes to USA, is that the Rugby League World Cup will be in USA in 2025.

Would the US sports public understand the difference between RL and RU World Cups? Would anyone who might be inclined to watch a RWC match in 2027 be just as inclined to watch RLWC in 2025? I reckon this might mean a USA RWC in 2027, plus Olympics and FIFA makes USA 2027 unlikely.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sat, 23 Jun 2018, 14:02

I'm not 100% convinced the Rugby League World Cup is going to be played there just yet. They've got some crazy ambitious goals to somehow in 7 years get people interested in a sport that has virtually no presence in the nation in the middle of the NFL season, using NFL stadiums. On top of that, I seriously think the officials running that tournament have over estimated how much rugby fans in the US don't know the difference between the two sports. It's an ambitious project to say the least. I don't know how they are going to make it work but good luck to them. US posters are free to chime in here about that. Maybe enough rugby fans over there will be interested in seeing it, I don't know.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Postby victorsra » Sat, 23 Jun 2018, 15:35

Is RL going to have money to rent MLS stadiums? Because I guess it is unlikely any government support. Also usualy the RLWC is playing after the end of NRL, which means October/November, which means NFL season...
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