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2027 RWC bids

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby TheStroBro » Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 18:38

Canalina wrote:The point is exactly this, at my eyes: if Beaumont or Laporte makes an exchange of favors with some federation, that's the proof that they are just old sharks, mere bandits; if Pichot makes the same thing, come on guys, it's the way the World goes, don't be naives, there's nothing bad in it! :|


Argentina is a Member of SANZAAR, it is an association. Of course they would make a mutually supportive deal.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby victorsra » Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 18:53

Pichot is considered by some a potential 21th-century-rugby-Havelange (might be, and might not be, we don't kow). Is it a bad or a good thing? Both. But for the majority of the countries it was better Havelange than Rous - or a Rous-like guy.

With Havelange (from 1974) Asia and Africa received a much better treatment and the WC was expanded according to how popular it realy was in the world. Some people complained at the time about going from 16 to 24 and from 24 to 32 teams, just like people complain now about RWC going from 20 to 24. But football in 82, when the WC was expanded to 24, football was popular everywhere, professional in the Americas and Europe (apart from tiny nations), or at least "high performance" (if we consider there wasn't official professionalism in the communist countries), blooming in the Middle East and Africa.... Havelange did what was needed. No more a colonialist view of the world.

Rugby is not as popular worldwide now as football was in 1974, but it needs a shift in its view, from a (British) Commonwealth approach to a global approach. But, just like Havelange transformed FIFA in a corrupt organization, people in rugby need to be critics about whatever Pichot or Laporte will do. And that's an important point: people complaining about Pichot being not reliable forget Laporte is not better and sides with Beaumont.

And if Beaumont sides with Laporte, this also should be enough to put an interrogation mark on him. So, it is realy ridiculous to believe Pichot is less honest than Beaumont. Honestly, it looks like prejudice. An European is supposed to be more honest than a South American? Just like a Northern European is supposed to be more honest than a Mediterranean or a Eastern European? Come on. Beaumont is as suspicious as Pichot. The different is where power will lie, only that. With Beaumont, it stays where is has always been. With Pichot, it becomes more "horizontal", with more shared power between North and South, and with more voice (in theory) to T2 rugby.

And if Pichot fails to do that, or if he lied to T2s, at least the old powers know their position is being challenged and that can make them be more open. Even if Pichot lies or fails, it is better.
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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby Canalina » Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 18:58

If the matter of the duel here in the forum is just the different approach of the two candidates towards the T2 nations, ok, I admit I was wrong and I'm sorry to have made you losing time.
I always felt that this duel was perceived like something different, like a fight between the young guy aiming for democracy and the old anglo-saxone crocodiles just desiring revenues for themselves and their little circle of nations; I think to remember also several hard words toward Beaumont and World Rugby, but maybe I was wrong. I'm not ironic, maybe I misinterpreted and I was wrong.

What Beaumont did for T2? I don't know in the details. Maybe nothing specific. But I know that the last World Cup was a big success and that World Rugby has the accounts in order; a successful World Cup may do for the T2/T3 nations, I think, a lot of good, much more than many little projects, because it attracts new players, new fans and new sponsors and it gives more enthusiasm to the already playing players (because you have something great and real to dream about); and to have accounts in order will permit WR to distribute some money in a moment of acute crisis like this.
I could mention other things that I think he did but I fear to finish in a trap because you surely know the T2 World much better than me.

Armchair, just a note about the women Super Series: are we sure it was a World Rugby (Beaumont)'s idea and so a World Rugby fault? Pichot seems currently a sort of american godfather, he is president of Rugby Americas since 2014 and he has strong ties with Sanzaar: are we sure that a tournament involving Usa, Canada and NZ, plus England and France, and hosted by the USA, was under the sphere of Beaumont and not under the one of Pichot? It's just a doubt, I don't know it.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby Canalina » Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 18:58

TheStroBro wrote:
Canalina wrote:The point is exactly this, at my eyes: if Beaumont or Laporte makes an exchange of favors with some federation, that's the proof that they are just old sharks, mere bandits; if Pichot makes the same thing, come on guys, it's the way the World goes, don't be naives, there's nothing bad in it! :|


Argentina is a Member of SANZAAR, it is an association. Of course they would make a mutually supportive deal.

Of course

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby victorsra » Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 19:01

Canalina wrote:If the matter of the duel here in the forum is just the different approach of the two candidates towards the T2 nations, ok, I admit I was wrong and I'm sorry to have made you losing time.
I always felt that this duel was perceived like something different, like a fight between the young guy aiming for democracy and the old anglo-saxone crocodiles just desiring revenues for themselves and their little circle of nations; I think to remember also several hard words toward Beaumont and World Rugby, but maybe I was wrong. I'm not ironic, maybe I misinterpreted and I was wrong.

What Beaumont did for T2? I don't know in the details. Maybe nothing specific. But I know that the last World Cup was a big success and that World Rugby has the accounts in order; a successful World Cup may do for the T2/T3 nations, I think, a lot of good, much more than many little projects, because it attracts new players, new fans and new sponsors and it gives more enthusiasm to the already playing players (because you have something great and real to dream about); and to have accounts in order will permit WR to distribute some money in a moment of acute crisis like this.
I could mention other things that I think he did but I fear to finish in a trap because you surely know the T2 World much better than me.

Armchair, just a note about the women Super Series: are we sure it was a World Rugby (Beaumont)'s idea and so a World Rugby fault? Pichot seems currently a sort of american godfather, he is president of Rugby Americas since 2014 and he has strong ties with Sanzaar: are we sure that a tournament involving Usa, Canada and NZ, plus England and France, and hosted by the USA, was under the sphere of Beaumont and not under the one of Pichot? It's just a doubt, I don't know it.

And why Beaumont would be more honest than Pichot? He sides with Laporte, perceived as, by many, as unreliable as Pichot. Just because Europeans are by definition more honest than Latin Americans? The whole point about people complaining about Pichot is that he is alledgedly not honest. Is Beaumont/Laporte?

And RWC "success" is absolutely relative. Is it realy succesful? Rous supporters would have said the same.
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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby Thomas » Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 19:03

He reminds me of Grondona and I do worry for rugby.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby victorsra » Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 19:04

He has nothing to do with Grondona.
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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby Thomas » Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 19:06

victorsra wrote:He has nothing to do with Grondona.


I didn't say that. I said he reminds me of him/

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby victorsra » Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 19:07

Thomas wrote:
victorsra wrote:He has nothing to do with Grondona.


I didn't say that. I said he reminds me of him/

Because he is Argentine? What in him reminds Grondona?
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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby victorsra » Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 19:12

Argentine posters can talk much more than me about that, but Pichot is market-oriented and Grondona was much more conservative. Grondona was also a product of the Argentine dictatorship. Pichot definitly isn't. He is a product of the current concepts of the global sports industry.

And look, I have many problems with market-oriented approaches and I do believe many aspects in the sports industry now must be rethought. But that doesn't change with Beaumont/Laporte anyway.
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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby victorsra » Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 19:25

Is Laporte = Blatter? :lol:
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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby Canalina » Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 19:25

victorsra wrote:And why Beaumont would be more honest than Pichot? He sides with Laporte, perceived as, by many, as unreliable as Pichot. Just because Europeans are by definition more honest than Latin Americans? The whole point about people complaining about Pichot is that he is alledgedly not honest. Is Beaumont/Laporte?

And RWC "success" is absolutely relative. Is it realy succesful? Rous supporters would have said the same.

No one said that Beaumont is more honest than Pichot, I think you are just trying to turn the table here. The point is exactly this: no one on Beaumont's side tried to depict the opponent as dishonest, while many of Pichot fans did that. And Pichot loved, it seemed to me, to act the role of the young naive out of the system, battling against the system. At the opposite, I've never seen an interview to Beaumont where he launches accuses to his vice. Maybe I've just missed them.

About the japanese RWC, if you don't consider it a success I think you have just a bias.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby Thomas » Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 19:26

victorsra wrote:
Thomas wrote:
victorsra wrote:He has nothing to do with Grondona.


I didn't say that. I said he reminds me of him/

Because he is Argentine? What in him reminds Grondona?


Up until now he has managed up very well and oiled all the right hands.. His PEGSA Group tied with ESPN, the carrier of America’s Rugby Championship, a World Rugby property. PEGSA also includes action from Super Rugby’s Jaguares in promotional reels of the content they’ve produced on their website.

His accomplishments to get the Jaguares in Super Rugby and Pumas playing the Tri nations is very admirable, but there is something about him that makes me uncomfortable.

He still “managed” the coaching jobs of Pumas and Jaguares without proper power. He also failed in to get enhanced support in Argentina. Still, no stadium.

Too much conflict of interest, should he get elected. He must declare everything.

In no way what I am saying this exonerates Beaumont and Laporte. Laporte is very Machiavellian in my opinion and wonder what's his power play.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 19:28

Canalina wrote:What Beaumont did for T2? I don't know in the details. Maybe nothing specific. But I know that the last World Cup was a big success and that World Rugby has the accounts in order; a successful World Cup may do for the T2/T3 nations, I think, a lot of good, much more than many little projects, because it attracts new players, new fans and new sponsors and it gives more enthusiasm to the already playing players (because you have something great and real to dream about); and to have accounts in order will permit WR to distribute some money in a moment of acute crisis like this.
I could mention other things that I think he did but I fear to finish in a trap because you surely know the T2 World much better than me.

Armchair, just a note about the women Super Series: are we sure it was a World Rugby (Beaumont)'s idea and so a World Rugby fault? Pichot seems currently a sort of american godfather, he is president of Rugby Americas since 2014 and he has strong ties with Sanzaar: are we sure that a tournament involving Usa, Canada and NZ, plus England and France, and hosted by the USA, was under the sphere of Beaumont and not under the one of Pichot? It's just a doubt, I don't know it.

Japan was given 2019 RWC under Lapasset in 2009, 75% of the work was done by the time Beaumont arrived in May 2016. He even found a competitive Japanese team done by the time he seized power in World Rugby. In fact I'd have a hard time to accept Japan as a story of great Tier 2 development, regardless of who would we like to give the merits. They have got a long rugby story, they have been taken care of by Tier 1 with regular visits, they have a league full of professional players from Tier 1, money, good coaches...

Regarding Super Series, who knows, it could be Pichot's idea, but frankly I don't trust him given too much thought to women's rugby (see, another criticism). In any case it was a World Rugby failure and just another example of them arriving late to the party.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby victorsra » Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 19:33

Just like you could consider Mexico 1970 under Rous a huge success. And it was a commercial success! It did captured global attention, because it was the middle of the global "live TV boom" context. But Mexico 1970 had only 1 spot for Africa and 1 for Asia/Oceania. And only because Africans boycotted the 1966 WC, as Rous' FIFA gave only 1 spot for Africa+Asia (outrageous) that time.

Japan 2019 is a success in terms how profit it was, in the T1s eyes, and it did elevated rugby's to a better place in global audiences, as we are living the social media boom (just like the TV boom of he 1970s). WR must have been too much incompetent to make it a fail (specialy because, different from part of T1 public believe, 2015 was not the year Japanese rugby was born).

But the change for T2 rugby now is as slow as FIFA was in the 1960s for Africa/Asia. Or, in better word, it is not according to the current needs and possibilities/opportunities. To be a success doesn't mean to reach the real potencial or to work for it. AS IN THE 1970s Havelange saw how football was becoming more global and how live TV was expanding its possibilities. He saw how to make it much better what already was considered a success. Because it wasn't a success for everybody (wasn't reaching the full potential and wasn't going to with the old mentality that was still around). Just like rugby now.

We must be worried about if the global expansion would mean corruption in rugby (the bad thing Havelange also showed us), but you don't solve this keeping rugby a "Commonwealth & special friends" thing.
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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby Canalina » Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 19:44

Armchair Fan wrote:Japan was given 2019 RWC under Lapasset in 2009, 75% of the work was done by the time Beaumont arrived in May 2016. He even found a competitive Japanese team done by the time he seized power in World Rugby. In fact I'd have a hard time to accept Japan as a story of great Tier 2 development, regardless of who would we like to give the merits. They have got a long rugby story, they have been taken care of by Tier 1 with regular visits, they have a league full of professional players from Tier 1, money, good coaches...

Regarding Super Series, who knows, it could be Pichot's idea, but frankly I don't trust him given too much thought to women's rugby (see, another criticism). In any case it was a World Rugby failure and just another example of them arriving late to the party.

I was not saying that it was a success because Japan is T2, I wanted to say that a successful World Cup (in Japan or in every other place) helps all the nations, because it's the apical event of the whole movement and it has the power to attract and pull the local movement in every nation, by inspiring new players, giving enthusiasm to who is already playing, attracting space on the media and maybe encouraging some more sponsors. Or at least I like to think that it is so.

Anyway I quit the discussion, I'm tired to quarrel about these things. You will cheer for Pichot, I will cheer for Beaumont

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby victorsra » Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 19:52

Japan was never a "T2", sorry. I might be annoying with this, but the reality of Japanese rugby for decades has nothing to do with the reality of most T2s. Only their national team performed like a T2. That's why 2019 RWC is misleading to analyse T2s. Japan shows how the T2 concept is much more a T1 thing.
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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby victorsra » Sun, 19 Apr 2020, 20:07

BTW, I do believe we are in a 1970-like moment. Because the 2019 RWC looks like a lot the Mexico 1970 FIFA WC.

We could draw some similarities between Mexican fooball before 1970 and Japanese rugby before 2019 and what the WC did for them (or can do, because 2019 was "yesterday"... we don't have a clear aftermath). Mexico before 1970 was already a traditional soccer nation (they are playing the WC since 1930), but lacked a bigger space in the international scene - and after 1970 made its own league much better, much more popular.

Havelange won the election in 1974, which means 1 WC after the Mexico 1970 "shake". Pichot might be different if he wins right now, but also it is possible to see him or someone with his sort of project winning only by 2024.

Or course, Havelange wasn't able to change the format for the 1978 WC, because it was already decided, but did the change for 1982. Just like Pichot wouldn't be able to change 2023, but could change 2027.

When Havelange won it, he started to build a global environment with the junior WCs and the growth of countries involved in the WC qualy, just like Pichot proposes to transform the international scene. Also, Havelange started and increased the money from FIFA to the national federations. Don't mistake this with corruption (that also happened). In Rous times, most African, Asian and Central American nations did not actively participate in FIFA's politics because they had no money to travel or properly organize their own federatons. Havelange changed this and it was great for the game, apart from the corruption that came with it (in a time when governance practices and media access to information was light years from what we have now... true, now we have corruption as well, but the system is much more complex and also linked to private interests... it woudn't desappear with a less democratic approach in FIFA, which means the Havelange reforms were good, could be perfected and used for better practices). So, rugby can do it in a better way, as the exemples are already there - exemples to follow and to avoid.
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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 05:44

victorsra wrote:Just like you could consider Mexico 1970 under Rous a huge success. And it was a commercial success! It did captured global attention, because it was the middle of the global "live TV boom" context. But Mexico 1970 had only 1 spot for Africa and 1 for Asia/Oceania. And only because Africans boycotted the 1966 WC, as Rous' FIFA gave only 1 spot for Africa+Asia (outrageous) that time.

Japan 2019 is a success in terms how profit it was, in the T1s eyes, and it did elevated rugby's to a better place in global audiences, as we are living the social media boom (just like the TV boom of he 1970s). WR must have been too much incompetent to make it a fail (specialy because, different from part of T1 public believe, 2015 was not the year Japanese rugby was born).

But the change for T2 rugby now is as slow as FIFA was in the 1960s for Africa/Asia. Or, in better word, it is not according to the current needs and possibilities/opportunities. To be a success doesn't mean to reach the real potencial or to work for it. AS IN THE 1970s Havelange saw how football was becoming more global and how live TV was expanding its possibilities. He saw how to make it much better what already was considered a success. Because it wasn't a success for everybody (wasn't reaching the full potential and wasn't going to with the old mentality that was still around). Just like rugby now.

We must be worried about if the global expansion would mean corruption in rugby (the bad thing Havelange also showed us), but you don't solve this keeping rugby a "Commonwealth & special friends" thing.


The parallels are once again shocking. I wasn't aware that FIFA only made the next big step globally after they got rid of their British presidents era (1955-1974). Africa only got 2 spots in 1982 - basically the first tournament with 24 teams, and where the qualification rules weren't formed under a British president. Victor, you probably know more about the circumstances of the expansion?
Why is it always British guys hindering sports? Their upbringing in exclusive private schools? I simply can't understand.
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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 06:15

It’s because nobody likes drastic change. The problem for the sport over the last 20 years is that it’s trying to both expand its presence whilst keep a hold of what it has. It can’t do both. You either go the way of FIFA and move forward, or you do what Cricket did and regress to preserving the status quo. If rugby goes Pichot’s way then it means those on top will eventually have to deal other nations surpassing them in terms of growth and money. If Australia and New Zealand can barely keep their head above water now, what the hell do you think will happen if the likes of USA, Spain, Brazil, Germany etc were to suddenly rise in the world order?

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby Pedro1 » Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 08:33

Unless there is a drastic change in local culture, I don't think any of the aforementioned countries will ever match a nation like NZ (assuming they also keep their structures in place). NZ would love for countries with money to enter the party so they can do a proper($) world league.

It's the bottom half of the 6N that are shitting their pants. It's realistic for Spain to overcome Italy, and Scotland are one bad move away from the same destiny.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 09:17

Pedro1 wrote:Unless there is a drastic change in local culture, I don't think any of the aforementioned countries will ever match a nation like NZ (assuming they also keep their structures in place). NZ would love for countries with money to enter the party so they can do a proper($) world league.

It's the bottom half of the 6N that are shitting their pants. It's realistic for Spain to overcome Italy, and Scotland are one bad move away from the same destiny.


Only Italy has cause to be worried. Rugby's position in Britain and Ireland is secure, unless Six Nations becomes pay to view; then it dies, or club rugby becomes more popular than international rugby, like what has happened with football. A British and Irish league could solve Scotland's and Wales's money problems.

The biggest risk is Australia. League was won the war. Rugby Australia is in a very difficult situation. Australia has too many football codes and rugby union is in the worst position of them all.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 09:38

thatrugbyguy wrote:It’s because nobody likes drastic change. The problem for the sport over the last 20 years is that it’s trying to both expand its presence whilst keep a hold of what it has. It can’t do both. You either go the way of FIFA and move forward, or you do what Cricket did and regress to preserving the status quo. If rugby goes Pichot’s way then it means those on top will eventually have to deal other nations surpassing them in terms of growth and money. If Australia and New Zealand can barely keep their head above water now, what the hell do you think will happen if the likes of USA, Spain, Brazil, Germany etc were to suddenly rise in the world order?


But rugby (and apparently British sports administrators) have their own definition to "drastic change". We all know how long England didn't even have a national league for rugby. And cricket is simply an irrelevant sport, if you are not from India or to a degree from the Commonwealth. Interesting to watch which catastrophic decisions their admins produce with not even one nation from outside the Commonwealth playing the game.

But on the other hand rugby doesn't need to be 100% soccer, but look at basketball, field hockey and to a degree if you want a more Eurocentric perspective Handball or ice-hockey. All those are massively integrating sports. Imho that's due to a failed administration of rugby for centuries and even worse cricket.
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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby Pedro1 » Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 10:26

Agree with RugbyLiebe, rugby should look at other minor sports for clues on how to proceed.
Football is an anomaly among team sports, you can't take it as an example and we shouldn't try to be like it.

This also goes hand in hand with the constant tinkering of rules to make it more "entertaining". If the rules were the thing holding rugby back, rugby league would have killed it already.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby thatrugbyguy » Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 12:22

RugbyLiebe wrote:
But rugby (and apparently British sports administrators) have their own definition to "drastic change". We all know how long England didn't even have a national league for rugby. And cricket is simply an irrelevant sport, if you are not from India or to a degree from the Commonwealth. Interesting to watch which catastrophic decisions their admins produce with not even one nation from outside the Commonwealth playing the game.

But on the other hand rugby doesn't need to be 100% soccer, but look at basketball, field hockey and to a degree if you want a more Eurocentric perspective Handball or ice-hockey. All those are massively integrating sports. Imho that's due to a failed administration of rugby for centuries and even worse cricket.


There's actually plenty of nations outside the Commonwealth that do play cricket. Ireland, Netherlands, Afghanistan, Nepal, United Arab Emirates, etc. The issue is the people running cricket don't care. The same 7 or 8 nations play each other all the time is perfectly fine for them, regardless of what other smaller nations want. Rugby's problem is that it does care. I agree that FIFA isn't the best example to look at, in fact I would argue it's the worst simply due to the amount of corruption involved. Basketball is probably a better example. Over the last 10-15 years international basketball has come to the point where the USA are no longer guaranteed the gold medal every four years. Before that the USA were dominant for what seemed like forever. A team would be lucky to get within 3 points of the US.

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