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2027 RWC bids

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 12:37

thatrugbyguy wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:But on the other hand rugby doesn't need to be 100% soccer, but look at basketball, field hockey and to a degree if you want a more Eurocentric perspective Handball or ice-hockey. All those are massively integrating sports. Imho that's due to a failed administration of rugby for centuries and even worse cricket.

Basketball is probably a better example. Over the last 10-15 years international basketball has come to the point where the USA are no longer guaranteed the gold medal every four years. Before that the USA were dominant for what seemed like forever. A team would be lucky to get within 3 points of the US.

I don't think basketball is a good example. It has been professional all around the would almost forever, you don't need that many players to be competitive hence increasing the impact of a freak or an import (I still remember Bo McCalebb driving FYR Macedonia to Eurobasket 2011 semifinals)...

Of course the gap has closed, but external factors are to be taken into account, not only administration (FIBA has been quite chaotic, with imposition of international windows, wars in Europe against leading clubs...). NBA didn't become the great sports promoter it is today until the eighties. It did also have less teams. Scouting wasn't that good, there were prejudices both because of origins (if you haven't played NCAA you aren't that good), size... And engaging to NBA meant not playing with your national team any longer due to amateur status. Therefore best players (and coaches, scouters) in the world didn't meet until the very late eighties and early nineties. There is no reason to think a prime Oscar Schmidt given his time to adapt wouldn't have shined in the NBA, for example.



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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby sk 88 » Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 13:53

thatrugbyguy wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:
But rugby (and apparently British sports administrators) have their own definition to "drastic change". We all know how long England didn't even have a national league for rugby. And cricket is simply an irrelevant sport, if you are not from India or to a degree from the Commonwealth. Interesting to watch which catastrophic decisions their admins produce with not even one nation from outside the Commonwealth playing the game.

But on the other hand rugby doesn't need to be 100% soccer, but look at basketball, field hockey and to a degree if you want a more Eurocentric perspective Handball or ice-hockey. All those are massively integrating sports. Imho that's due to a failed administration of rugby for centuries and even worse cricket.


There's actually plenty of nations outside the Commonwealth that do play cricket. Ireland, Netherlands, Afghanistan, Nepal, United Arab Emirates, etc. The issue is the people running cricket don't care. The same 7 or 8 nations play each other all the time is perfectly fine for them, regardless of what other smaller nations want. Rugby's problem is that it does care. I agree that FIFA isn't the best example to look at, in fact I would argue it's the worst simply due to the amount of corruption involved. Basketball is probably a better example. Over the last 10-15 years international basketball has come to the point where the USA are no longer guaranteed the gold medal every four years. Before that the USA were dominant for what seemed like forever. A team would be lucky to get within 3 points of the US.



Just on those countries listed:

Ireland: Part of UK until 1922, cricket stated in 1700s
Nepal: UK still recruits loads of solidiers from there, independent nation but culturally and economically linked to India since the Raj at least and as said still militarily linked to UK through Gurkha's.
Afghanistan: Game developed in refugee camps in Pakistan, then supported by British council after our recent military invasion.
UAE: Mainly played by migrant workers from Pakistan is my understanding but may be wrong here.

Which leaves the Netherlands, who for sure play cricket but in the same sense they play rugby. i.e. while the British oscillate between ignoring them and patronising them.

Also, did you know Denmark played Australia in 1989? Only lost by like 50 runs in a 50 over match which is quite good!

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby victorsra » Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 14:46

There is no reason to think a prime Oscar Schmidt given his time to adapt wouldn't have shined in the NBA, for example.

He was hired by the New Jersey (now Brooklyn) Nets and gave up to play for the Brazilian national team. He never played a match for the Nets and is still in their hall of fame. It is unique.

And yes, basketball is professional everywhere (Europe, Asia/Oceania, Latin America, Africa...) for very long time.
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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby TheStroBro » Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 16:22

Not sure how Basketball is that good of an example. If our players cared about the FIBA World Cup and it was aligned like it previously was it would be different. Getting guys who make 30M/year and play 70 plus games a year (load management) to commit to the National team is a lot. Coach K and Jerry Colangelo were able to do that under the previous cycle alignment. If the FIBA World Cup stays the year before there is no telling what ours or any other top pros will think of the Olympics again.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby victorsra » Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 16:30

Yes, but all other countries care about the FIBA World Cup and there are pretty strong basketball leagues outside USA. The Euroleague might not be NBA-level, but it is pretty good. The Chinese league is also realy popular. Basketball leagues in Latin America are very traditional too. It is a truly global sport. IMO, the second more global/most popular team sport in the world (after soccer).
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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby rey200 » Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 18:54

I agree. Basketball is also very easy to play, AND you can play alone. Great sport btw :)
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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby victorsra » Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 19:41

RugbyLiebe wrote:
victorsra wrote:Just like you could consider Mexico 1970 under Rous a huge success. And it was a commercial success! It did captured global attention, because it was the middle of the global "live TV boom" context. But Mexico 1970 had only 1 spot for Africa and 1 for Asia/Oceania. And only because Africans boycotted the 1966 WC, as Rous' FIFA gave only 1 spot for Africa+Asia (outrageous) that time.

Japan 2019 is a success in terms how profit it was, in the T1s eyes, and it did elevated rugby's to a better place in global audiences, as we are living the social media boom (just like the TV boom of he 1970s). WR must have been too much incompetent to make it a fail (specialy because, different from part of T1 public believe, 2015 was not the year Japanese rugby was born).

But the change for T2 rugby now is as slow as FIFA was in the 1960s for Africa/Asia. Or, in better word, it is not according to the current needs and possibilities/opportunities. To be a success doesn't mean to reach the real potencial or to work for it. AS IN THE 1970s Havelange saw how football was becoming more global and how live TV was expanding its possibilities. He saw how to make it much better what already was considered a success. Because it wasn't a success for everybody (wasn't reaching the full potential and wasn't going to with the old mentality that was still around). Just like rugby now.

We must be worried about if the global expansion would mean corruption in rugby (the bad thing Havelange also showed us), but you don't solve this keeping rugby a "Commonwealth & special friends" thing.


The parallels are once again shocking. I wasn't aware that FIFA only made the next big step globally after they got rid of their British presidents era (1955-1974). Africa only got 2 spots in 1982 - basically the first tournament with 24 teams, and where the qualification rules weren't formed under a British president. Victor, you probably know more about the circumstances of the expansion?
Why is it always British guys hindering sports? Their upbringing in exclusive private schools? I simply can't understand.


Let's look at the FIFA WC in the Jules Rimet period (the French that created the WC). He was FIFA's president from 1921 to 1954.

When he created the WC, he made the difficult decision of hosting it in Uruguay. Why? Uruguay was the Olympic gold medalist in 1924 and 1928, then the Olympic football tournament was the most important national teams competition for football. Uruguay won the gold in Paris and in Amsterdam. In 1928 the big final was between Uruguay and Argentina! And the bronze medal was contested by Italy and Egypt. That reveled how the WC should be born as a global thing. However, only 4 Europeans accepted to travel to Uruguay (France, Belgium, Romania and Yugoslavia), while Mexico and USA also played. Ship travels were the only way...

Egypt played in 1934, Cuba and Indonesia in 1938. India qualified to 1950 before withdrewing after the draw. In all of them, South America was there competing with Europe (apart from Argentina's boycotts). The WC was small, ship travels delayed, and most of Asia and Africa were still under European rule - and their football was in the infancy, with a couple of exceptions. Still, FIFA under Rimet tried to create a global competition. And in the 30s the Home Nations were out of the WC, with no interest on it. England only debuted in 1950, to be beaten by an amateurish USA team...

From 1954, air travel made it better for teams to cross the oceans. But almost nothing changed in the distribution of WC places from 1954 to 1974. FIFA's presidents in this period were two English guys, Drewry (1956 to 1961) and Rous (1961 to 1974). With them, Asia had 1 place again in 1954 (South Korea) and Africa was absent. It is fair to rememebr independences in Africa were later than in Asia (and Egypt, more traditional, withdrew).

Anyway, in 1958 there was just half a spot for Africa + Asia. The champion of both continents needed to play an European in a repechage! Israel won the Africa/Asia qualy (still playing in Asia) but was beaten by Wales.

In 1962, again no spots for Asia or Africa. The African champions Morocco needed to play a repechage against Spain and the Asian champions Korea played Yugoslavia. Both were beaten.

Only for 1966 FIFA awarded 1 spot to be shared by Africa and Asia, like in 1954. The Africans refused and boycotted it. North Korea qualified. It was clear the Home Nations mentality wouldn't help the international football to realy expand borders.

In 1970, FIFA finaly, after the crisis, gave Asia 1 spot (Israel) and Africa 1 spot (Morocco). But that was too late. Among Asian and Africans, supported by Latin Americans, there was a desire to change. And Rous lost the election to Havelange, that offered WC expansion, among other thing. The financial assistance from FIFA to help Asian/African countries (recently independent) to organize their federations and participate more in FIFA's politics was also crucial.
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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby Armchair Fan » Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 19:52

victorsra wrote:Only for 1966 FIFA awarded 1 spot to be shared by Africa and Asia, like in 1954. The Africans refused and boycotted it. North Korea qualified. It was clear the Home Nations mentality wouldn't help the international football to realy expand borders.

In 1970, FIFA finaly, after the crisis, gave Asia 1 spot (Israel) and Africa 1 spot (Morocco). But that was too late. Among Asian and Africans, supported by Latin Americans, there was a desire to change. And Rous lost the election to Havelange, that offered WC expansion, among other thing. The financial assistance from FIFA to help Asian/African countries (recently independent) to organize their federations and participate more in FIFA's politics was also crucial.

And did great:


I must say something. It was probably not the main reason for FIFA who simply saw them as inferior, but World Cup qualifiers at the time were a mess due to Cold War politics. Too many boycotts...

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby victorsra » Mon, 20 Apr 2020, 19:57

Of course. Cold War and Independence wars were a problem. But that's why Havelange offered funding from FIFA. That helped those nations to travel. Before that they had scarce resources. Just like most rugby nations now.

Havelange's FIFA invested on Africa and Asia. Rous probably wouldn't.
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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 21 Apr 2020, 13:51

TheStroBro wrote:Not sure how Basketball is that good of an example. If our players cared about the FIBA World Cup and it was aligned like it previously was it would be different. Getting guys who make 30M/year and play 70 plus games a year (load management) to commit to the National team is a lot. Coach K and Jerry Colangelo were able to do that under the previous cycle alignment. If the FIBA World Cup stays the year before there is no telling what ours or any other top pros will think of the Olympics again.

But apart from FIBA World Cup results, international basketball is much more competitive than it used to be. There is no way 30 years ago a Turkish side would force an OT against an American side, even those made out of NCAA.

An example. Spain had the very same national team head coach for 27 years. Antonio Díaz-Miguel, a hugely venerated coach, Hall of Famer... But he stayed there mainly because he had good contacts in the USA and kept in touch with coaching novelties at a time when only obscure films arrived from NBA or NCAA to Europe. There were rigid blockages and frontiers. The very same teams were fighting for gold medals and qualifying for tournaments. His career would have been very different under current context, where NBA coaches like Popovich follow FIBA competitions, European coaches taste NBA as assistants, NBA franchises have no issue betting on international prospects in the Draft, other players accept that NBA specificities (congestionated match schedule, open defense) may not suit them...

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby Chester-Donnelly » Tue, 21 Apr 2020, 14:55

Armchair Fan wrote:
TheStroBro wrote:Not sure how Basketball is that good of an example. If our players cared about the FIBA World Cup and it was aligned like it previously was it would be different. Getting guys who make 30M/year and play 70 plus games a year (load management) to commit to the National team is a lot. Coach K and Jerry Colangelo were able to do that under the previous cycle alignment. If the FIBA World Cup stays the year before there is no telling what ours or any other top pros will think of the Olympics again.

But apart from FIBA World Cup results, international basketball is much more competitive than it used to be. There is no way 30 years ago a Turkish side would force an OT against an American side, even those made out of NCAA.

An example. Spain had the very same national team head coach for 27 years. Antonio Díaz-Miguel, a hugely venerated coach, Hall of Famer... But he stayed there mainly because he had good contacts in the USA and kept in touch with coaching novelties at a time when only obscure films arrived from NBA or NCAA to Europe. There were rigid blockages and frontiers. The very same teams were fighting for gold medals and qualifying for tournaments. His career would have been very different under current context, where NBA coaches like Popovich follow FIBA competitions, European coaches taste NBA as assistants, NBA franchises have no issue betting on international prospects in the Draft, other players accept that NBA specificities (congestionated match schedule, open defense) may not suit them...


A lesson I think we should take from American sports and soccer, is salary inflation. There are now a handful of players being paid over £1m per year, whilst the majority of professional rugby players are not being very well paid at all. I think that is something that needs to be discussed and agreed upon between England, France, Japan and USA so we don't get to the situation of players being paid millions and clubs going bust. This needs to be dealt with now before it gets out of hand.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby jservuk » Thu, 23 Apr 2020, 13:49

A lot has been said here about this possibly being RWC's FIFA 74 / Havalenge moment.

Whilst I resepct the view has some merits, a key difference between football in the 70s and Rugby is the most successful nations at international football were Brazil, Italy, Germany. The English national team was in decline in the 70s, failing to qualify for 74 and 78. The World Cup was able to survive, indeed thrive without UK teams. ms as well.

I dont know for sure, but I reckon this would have meant that FIFA was not in servitude to nor dependent upon the 'Motherland' of football (as Sepp Blatter sarcastically called England in 2010).

In rugby the financial powerhouses are England and France, strongly invested in the existing power structure and financial arrangements that keep the whole thing going.

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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby victorsra » Thu, 23 Apr 2020, 14:07

That's true about the key position UK has in rugby now, but in football England won the WC in 1966 and were pretty competitive in 1970, that's the key moment for that process. But true, England wasn't the major power in the 20 years between 50 and 70. And they simply missed the 1974 WC.
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Re: 2027 RWC bids

Unread postby RugbyLiebe » Thu, 23 Apr 2020, 16:18

jservuk wrote: upon the 'Motherland' of football (as Sepp Blatter sarcastically called England in 2010).


In German, Blatter's language, where your ancestors come from is called fatherland and where something was invented/came from is motherland. There was no sarcasm in his statements.

What Blatter did in 2004 was call China the motherland of football as there was evidence, that Chinese played with a leather ball and tried to shoot goals in the 3rd century.
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