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2018 Americas Rugby Championship

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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 06 Mar 2018, 04:49

That actually wouldn't be a bad time to play it.

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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby victorsra » Tue, 06 Mar 2018, 14:05

I think Fiji, Samoa and Tonga national teams have more Europe-based than Super Rugy-based athletes, which means the 6N window could work*. But I doubt USA will get out of the ARC. This is a long term project. September is a month for the PNC if European clubs allow those PI players to play it/World Rugby succefully acts in behalf of the PIs (September is the month without Champions Cup, it is more possible... but hard anyway... it'll need money involved)

*in fact, as European league don't really stop during the 6N, the PI players become really important for those clubs in that period....
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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby YamahaKiwi » Tue, 06 Mar 2018, 14:39

I think the USA should try and get games with PIs (and also maintain a close relationship with Japan*) but I think it'd be stupid for the USA to drop the ARC. The USA needs to look at the long game (15-20 years time) and the Americas undoubtedly offers much better long term opportunities than the PI. The PI got great talent but rugby's a pro sport and money is increasingly counting against them. Heck even NZ is increasingly struggling and will struggle to maintain its dominance in the next 20 years despite the rosy period of the last decade or so. The situation for the PIs is much worse and infact one of the biggest issues for the sport from now is going to be how do we keep these island teams relevant in our sport as more money and funding comes into the game in other countries? So yes, right now PIs are stronger on the field but that's not necessarily and probably unlikely to be the case in 15-20 years. Even in U20s (Yes that's not everything but) Uruguay, and others are beating PI teams now in the WR Junior Trophy.

* I know the US Selects have their own americas tournament but I was thinking when adding about PIs & Japan that's it'd be a pretty cool thing for the selects to go and play HKG & KOR sometime too. Now that would be an interesting tour.

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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby Tobar » Tue, 06 Mar 2018, 17:00

victorsra wrote:I think Fiji, Samoa and Tonga national teams have more Europe-based than Super Rugy-based athletes, which means the 6N window could work*. But I doubt USA will get out of the ARC. This is a long term project. September is a month for the PNC if European clubs allow those PI players to play it/World Rugby succefully acts in behalf of the PIs (September is the month without Champions Cup, it is more possible... but hard anyway... it'll need money involved)

*in fact, as European league don't really stop during the 6N, the PI players become really important for those clubs in that period....


I don’t see how we would play test matches in September. The test windows will be in July and November and I don’t see a regular tournament taking place then. I do agree that the US is not planning on leaving the ARC anytime soon.

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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby Tobar » Tue, 06 Mar 2018, 17:04

thatrugbyguy wrote:If the proposed South American pro league gets off the ground next year then Brazil, Chile and Uruguay will keep pace with the US and Canada. In fact the inclusion of Argentinian teams and players is going to expose the South Americans to a stronger rugby environment than what the MLR probably will. A second division for the ARC needs to run side by side with the first division and should consist of 6 teams in my opinion. The current proposal is only for four nations.


Even if the competition takes place next year I don’t see these countries keeping pace at all. I love the idea of this league and really hope it works out but the depth of talent and early financial return are far lower than in the US. Outside of the Argentinian players I don’t see the league being anywhere near as competitive as MLR in the short to medium term.

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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby victorsra » Tue, 06 Mar 2018, 17:46

I don’t see how we would play test matches in September.

Major League Rugby will end in July. As in 2020 the tests will be in July (not June anymore), it is possible to see playoffs in August? Anyway, it is pretty much logical September, as US pro players won't have anything from August until the November tests, AFAIK.
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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby Coloradoan » Tue, 06 Mar 2018, 18:05

Tobar wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:If the proposed South American pro league gets off the ground next year then Brazil, Chile and Uruguay will keep pace with the US and Canada. In fact the inclusion of Argentinian teams and players is going to expose the South Americans to a stronger rugby environment than what the MLR probably will. A second division for the ARC needs to run side by side with the first division and should consist of 6 teams in my opinion. The current proposal is only for four nations.


Even if the competition takes place next year I don’t see these countries keeping pace at all. I love the idea of this league and really hope it works out but the depth of talent and early financial return are far lower than in the US. Outside of the Argentinian players I don’t see the league being anywhere near as competitive as MLR in the short to medium term.


The main teams of concern are Chile and Brazil, right? Argentina is still going to be good, Canada is going to get the same benefit from MLR once the Canadian teams are added and Uruguay has been producing both strong youth talent and has them in a good daily training environment to the point that they should still be competitive. Chile has produced relatively strong youth teams (beat Canada and Fiji at U20 level last year) but has had a big drop off at senior level. The two main issues for them seem to be player retention and daily training environment. A South American pro league is certain to help with the latter and should also help with the former. I'd be most concerned about Brazil in the short to medium term for those reasons. But because of Brazil's massive population, and the relative lack of a popular power/physical team sport, it's likely that they will be able to attract some quality crossover athletes if a pro league happens.

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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 06 Mar 2018, 18:40

victorsra wrote:
I don’t see how we would play test matches in September.

Major League Rugby will end in July. As in 2020 the tests will be in July (not June anymore), it is possible to see playoffs in August? Anyway, it is pretty much logical September, as US pro players won't have anything from August until the November tests, AFAIK.


The structure of MLR from what I've seen for 2019, not 2018 is based around the shift in 2019. So yeah, that means MLR teams this year will be without their Eagles. But the idea is never completely rob one team like England has basically done with Saracens somehow.

I think the MLR season next year will shake out starting the 2nd weekend of March and the Championship ending in June or the Playoffs being in August. Unsure with that and will all be based on how many teams are in the league of course.

We need to play the PIs now because we need to have tougher competition. Would be nice to get Italy...think we could take them now.

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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby Tobar » Tue, 06 Mar 2018, 19:14

victorsra wrote:
I don’t see how we would play test matches in September.

Major League Rugby will end in July. As in 2020 the tests will be in July (not June anymore), it is possible to see playoffs in August? Anyway, it is pretty much logical September, as US pro players won't have anything from August until the November tests, AFAIK.


I’m not talking about MLR here, I’m saying that joining a regularly tournament in September would mean that we play test matches February, July, September and November. That’s unreasonable.

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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby Tobar » Tue, 06 Mar 2018, 19:31

Coloradoan wrote:
Tobar wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:If the proposed South American pro league gets off the ground next year then Brazil, Chile and Uruguay will keep pace with the US and Canada. In fact the inclusion of Argentinian teams and players is going to expose the South Americans to a stronger rugby environment than what the MLR probably will. A second division for the ARC needs to run side by side with the first division and should consist of 6 teams in my opinion. The current proposal is only for four nations.


Even if the competition takes place next year I don’t see these countries keeping pace at all. I love the idea of this league and really hope it works out but the depth of talent and early financial return are far lower than in the US. Outside of the Argentinian players I don’t see the league being anywhere near as competitive as MLR in the short to medium term.


The main teams of concern are Chile and Brazil, right? Argentina is still going to be good, Canada is going to get the same benefit from MLR once the Canadian teams are added and Uruguay has been producing both strong youth talent and has them in a good daily training environment to the point that they should still be competitive. Chile has produced relatively strong youth teams (beat Canada and Fiji at U20 level last year) but has had a big drop off at senior level. The two main issues for them seem to be player retention and daily training environment. A South American pro league is certain to help with the latter and should also help with the former. I'd be most concerned about Brazil in the short to medium term for those reasons. But because of Brazil's massive population, and the relative lack of a popular power/physical team sport, it's likely that they will be able to attract some quality crossover athletes if a pro league happens.


All I’m saying is that the league won’t be on the same level as MLR. Not only will MLR have an extra year of preparation and execution but the overall quality of players in these countries and general awareness of Rugby are on completely different levels. They only have something like 20,000 players but most people haven’t even heard of the sport in their lives. At least Americans think itsnjust football without pads, if that makes much of a difference...

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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 13:19

It’s better than no professionalism at all. The advantage they’ll have is they’ve got a traditional rugby superpower who’s going to have involvement with the league, so they’re going to be exposed to talent a step down from the Jaguares. Fitness is the biggest issue I saw for Chile and Brazil this year, this new league will give the players a chance to work on that full time.

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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby victorsra » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 13:25

I’m not talking about MLR here, I’m saying that joining a regularly tournament in September would mean that we play test matches February, July, September and November. That’s unreasonable.

Why????

There is not a single country in professional rugby with more than 1 month o rest. Vacancies would be December and pre-season February. Than March-June MLR, and from July to November MLR-based national team players will be together. Unreasonable is to have nothing between july (tests) and november (tests).

To make it clear, from 2020:

January - Pre-Season
February-Early/Mid-March - ARC
Abril - MLR regular season
May - MLR regular season
June - MLR regular season and/or playoffs
July - Tests
August - MLR playoffs?
September - PNC
October - recover for main players, Americas-Pacific Challenge for "A" squad
November - Tests
December - Rest
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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby Tobar » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 14:10

victorsra wrote:
I’m not talking about MLR here, I’m saying that joining a regularly tournament in September would mean that we play test matches February, July, September and November. That’s unreasonable.

Why????

There is not a single country in professional rugby with more than 1 month o rest. Vacancies would be December and pre-season February. Than March-June MLR, and from July to November MLR-based national team players will be together. Unreasonable is to have nothing between july (tests) and november (tests).

To make it clear, from 2020:

January - Pre-Season
February-Early/Mid-March - ARC
Abril - MLR regular season
May - MLR regular season
June - MLR regular season and/or playoffs
July - Tests
August - MLR playoffs?
September - PNC
October - recover for main players, Americas-Pacific Challenge for "A" squad
November - Tests
December - Rest


So then they’ll have about 12 test matches per year? Not including Argentina XV. What other countries do this? Not even England plays regularly scheduled test matches in September, how would the US have the budget for this? I don’t want an 11 month calendar of rugby that exhausts players.

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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby Tobar » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 14:12

thatrugbyguy wrote:It’s better than no professionalism at all. The advantage they’ll have is they’ve got a traditional rugby superpower who’s going to have involvement with the league, so they’re going to be exposed to talent a step down from the Jaguares. Fitness is the biggest issue I saw for Chile and Brazil this year, this new league will give the players a chance to work on that full time.


Yes it’s better than no professionalism but that doesn’t mean it will be as good as other professional players. The gap will still widen just at a lower rate. It’s also just come out that the likely start date is in 2020.

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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby victorsra » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 14:43

So then they’ll have about 12 test matches per year? Not including Argentina XV. What other countries do this? Not even England plays regularly scheduled test matches in September, how would the US have the budget for this? I don’t want an 11 month calendar of rugby that exhausts players.South American countries did until 2017, as we also had the South American Championship.

Springboks and Pumas play at least 12, Wallabies and All Blacks at least 13, many times 14.
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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 17:01


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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby Tobar » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 17:14

victorsra wrote:So then they’ll have about 12 test matches per year? Not including Argentina XV. What other countries do this? Not even England plays regularly scheduled test matches in September, how would the US have the budget for this? I don’t want an 11 month calendar of rugby that exhausts players.South American countries did until 2017, as we also had the South American Championship.

Springboks and Pumas play at least 12, Wallabies and All Blacks at least 13, many times 14.


I just think pro rugby players have a lot on their workload and don't want to add much more. That's what I like about MLR, they say they are placing an emphasis on player safety which is why they're starting out with only a 3 month schedule with 2 byes per team. They'll obviously expand on that but they will still be giving players proper rest as needed. I don't like how NH rugby goes from about August to May, adding in all the internationals in between. I'd rather just have the 3 test windows.

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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 19:45

victorsra wrote:So then they’ll have about 12 test matches per year? Not including Argentina XV. What other countries do this? Not even England plays regularly scheduled test matches in September, how would the US have the budget for this? I don’t want an 11 month calendar of rugby that exhausts players.South American countries did until 2017, as we also had the South American Championship.

Springboks and Pumas play at least 12, Wallabies and All Blacks at least 13, many times 14.


The buzz phrase from Premiership and World Rugby Seems to be Player Welfare. There is obviously a cap on total minutes, but in the US we have defined off-seasons that are at a minimum three months before camp starts with some workouts and mini camps in between depending on the sport.

Eventually we will probably see an MLR season that lasts 20 matches for the possible champion if they adopt something similar to an NFL Model. The Premiership plays almost 23-25 matches but then you add in Champions Cup which can be an extra 12 for the Champion, and then you add in 10-12 Tests per year? That's just wrong man. Only so many minutes on the rig.

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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby victorsra » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 21:09

I always said that, STB.

But if you count USA elite rugby it is still far from those pro players from other countries. You'll have:

5 ARC matches
3 June/July
3 November
+
10 MLR

= 21 games (less than the 24 matches Enlgish Premiership has alone, without Champions Cup), with 18 concentrated between February and July. You'll have 3 whole months with nothing until november matches? What will kill the players is February to July. 3 or 4 matches in September would only keep them active, after a couple of weeks break and followed by a month break. If you want to play the PIs. I can't see another month possible to negociate their players with the European clubs.

Look, it is november that doesn't fit in US future calendar...
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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby Tobar » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 21:26

victorsra wrote:I always said that, STB.

But if you count USA elite rugby it is still far from those pro players from other countries. You'll have:

5 ARC matches
3 June/July
3 November
+
10 MLR

= 21 games (less than the 24 matches Enlgish Premiership has alone, without Champions Cup), with 18 concentrated between February and July. You'll have 3 whole months with nothing until november matches? What will kill the players is February to July. 3 or 4 matches in September would only keep them active, after a couple of weeks break and followed by a month break. If you want to play the PIs. I can't see another month possible to negociate their players with the European clubs.

Look, it is november that doesn't fit in US future calendar...


I would like to keep it that way. MLR is likely to expand the season and amount of games. The goal is to get to about 16 teams by year 3-4. This is just in the first few years of the league, you never know how the corporate interests will come in to expand the season and get more money. NFL season is 17 weeks, rugby is like football so the owners may get that into their head when thinking of dollar signs.

I suppose my point is that they will be playing more and more games in the future. I would find it very hard to believe that they ever reduce the amount of games played so it's only going up from here. Better to build it in now with fewer matches before it gets to the point where neither the national team nor MLR want to reduce it and we're at the same point as the overworked rugby nations.

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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 21:50

victorsra wrote:I always said that, STB.

But if you count USA elite rugby it is still far from those pro players from other countries. You'll have:

5 ARC matches
3 June/July
3 November
+
10 MLR

= 21 games (less than the 24 matches Enlgish Premiership has alone, without Champions Cup), with 18 concentrated between February and July. You'll have 3 whole months with nothing until november matches? What will kill the players is February to July. 3 or 4 matches in September would only keep them active, after a couple of weeks break and followed by a month break. If you want to play the PIs. I can't see another month possible to negociate their players with the European clubs.

Look, it is november that doesn't fit in US future calendar...


MLR in season 1 is Max 10 matches for the Champion. However, they're adding three teams next year at a minimum. If they don't add the two Canadian teams I can see a full home and away before the final. if they play from Mid-February to Mid June and then semis and final in August following Summer Tests.

But I would agree with you that for the most part, November doesn't really fit our sporting Calendar as that is when it is high point of the Football season.

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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby victorsra » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 21:53

Yes, so IF people believe that you MUST play the PIs again, the only possible period is between the end of MLR and the November tests...
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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 07 Mar 2018, 23:37

You could just play the Pacific Islands as part of the June Calendar.

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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby victorsra » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 00:51

the problem is that both North Americans and Pacific Islands host matches in June. If they play a fixture away is simply one home match less...
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Re: 2018 Americas Rugby Championship

Postby YamahaKiwi » Thu, 08 Mar 2018, 10:29

All three of US, Canada, and Japan could every year reserve the first of their November window internationals to be v a PI team. Just about daily there are direct flights Nadi-Los Angeles on Fijian Airways. Fijian Airways also flies direct to HKG (used to fly direct to Tokyo but unfortunately no longer) and there's heaps of connections from there to the main Japanese cities (Otherwise there's also Korean Air via Seoul from Nadi). Otherwise they and other PI teams can fly to NZ or Australia and from there to the 3 north Pacific countries on a number of airlines. Yeah, some of their team would have to come back from Europe but at least they wouldn't have to come all the way back down to SW Pacific, and in the case where the games were played on the North American East coast they'd just have to hop over the Atlantic and meet their team mates there. Then after those games, all teams would continue on for 2-3 games in Europe.

This plan is logistically doable and also provides an additional home game for the north Pacific teams and is WAY better than having the same games played at some neutral venue in Europe! And another thing, though I'm sure they'd be full on encounters, they'd also serve as great games to have for all teams before all head to Europe and take on T1 or T2 teams there.

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