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2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby amz » Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 09:12

Vova12 wrote:I know what RUR budget is. 2.6 million $.


Blimey, this is even lower than ours! Good potential to grow nevertheless, only way is up from there.

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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 09:14

vino_93 wrote:Anyway I trully hope you will grow players by yourselves. That's not healthy for the sport to release on other countries... And best players will always chose France if they learn rugby there.
But as rugby looks to grow in Spain, we can be optimistic about your future :)

You talk about romanians, but poles could benefit of it too. Big migration wave during the 90's. First generation if children is playing now, and migration is still in.

Best players will always choose France even if they don't learn rugby there. Look at Samuel Ezeala, he's applying for a French passport in spite of having played rugby for 11 years in Barcelona before moving to Clermont. Or Tim Visser and Scotland, if we want to show it's not only an issue for Spain or France being the baddies.

We've got as many players than Romania, Georgia, Portugal, Belgium and Germany combined, the issue isn't numbers but professionalism.
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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 09:22

STMKY wrote:Replaying the match is an ideal option for both sides. I think that the Spaniards do not need such a victory.

Ideal for both sides? LOL
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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby amz » Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 09:29

STMKY wrote:Replaying the match is an ideal option for both sides. I think that the Spaniards do not need such a victory.


No sane person from WR or any other Union will ever accept such precedent.

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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 09:56

STMKY wrote:Break NEWS

Russian Union filed an appeal with Rugby Europe

Russia needs to reconsider the result of the game with Spain.

At 13:20, 5 minutes before the end of the meeting, due to inexplicable reasons, Tagir Gadjiev try was not credited.

Instead of a draw result and a possible final victory of Russia, the match ended with a victory for Spain, which almost completely deprived the "bears" of the chances to break into the World Cup-2019 in rugby. After the game, the incident was recorded in the official record of the match, and the video commissar of the game was provided with a video of the episode.

The Rugby Federation of Russia believes that this situation directly affected the results of the qualification for the 2019 World Cup and asked Rugby Europe to investigate this unprecedented case.
http://www.rugby.ru/new/federaciya-regb ... aniya.html


I do think there's an argument to be made for overturning the result and making it a 20-20 draw. It's wasn't a case of there being doubt in what happened, it was a case of the referee and the assistants all missing a legitimate try being scored. That said though, a draw ultimately does nothing for Russia, it would still mean they are 4 points behind Spain in World Cup qualification.

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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 10:03

thatrugbyguy wrote:I do think there's an argument to be made for overturning the result and making it a 20-20 draw. It's wasn't a case of there being doubt in what happened, it was a case of the referee and the assistants all missing a legitimate try being scored. That said though, a draw ultimately does nothing for Russia, it would still mean they are 4 points behind Spain in World Cup qualification.

And how do we assume the try was converted? Or that Russia wouldn't have scored a drop or a try? Or even Spain?

There isn't any easy solution.
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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby STMKY » Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 10:04

thatrugbyguy wrote:
I do think there's an argument to be made for overturning the result and making it a 20-20 draw. It's wasn't a case of there being doubt in what happened, it was a case of the referee and the assistants all missing a legitimate try being scored. That said though, a draw ultimately does nothing for Russia, it would still mean they are 4 points behind Spain in World Cup qualification.

After the try, we had another 4-5 minutes of added time. But I would agree to 20-20 as a compromise. This will give us a real chance, but it will be necessary to beat Romania on a visit.

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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 10:11

amz wrote:
STMKY wrote:Replaying the match is an ideal option for both sides. I think that the Spaniards do not need such a victory.


No sane person from WR or any other Union will ever accept such precedent.


I don't know, it's not a good look for the sport for this to have happened. Yeah we can make the argument Russia had their chances in the game which they didn't capitalise on, but the game is 80 mins long and failed opportunities earlier in the match shouldn't negate a horrible refereeing mistake right on full time. It's not a case of it being a questionable penalty, those 50/50 calls are part of the game and most of us can accept them. But this is plain incompetence from a referee and assistants who all missed a clear try. No-one should win/lose in that way, at least not at this level of competition. If this was schoolboy rugby it might be something you might just have to bite your tongue over, but with the World Cup on the line it's not good enough. Replaying the match I think is out of the question, there just isn't the time to schedule it before the Samoa playoff. Overturning the result to be a draw however, even if both teams don't benefit from it, should at least be discussed.

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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 10:14

Armchair Fan wrote:And how do we assume the try was converted? Or that Russia wouldn't have scored a drop or a try? Or even Spain?

There isn't any easy solution.


No there isn't. It's an unfortunate series of events that should never have happened in the first place. At the very least it needs to be mandated that some form of basic TMO needs to be on hand for REC matches from next year.

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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 10:22

STMKY wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:
After the try, we had another 4-5 minutes of added time. But I would agree to 20-20 as a compromise. This will give us a real chance, but it will be necessary to beat Romania on a visit.


We have precedent down here for something similar that happened in Aussie Rules football (AFL). A few years ago two teams were level on points when the sirens sounded for full time, in Aussie Rules football the referee is suppose to stop the game the moment the siren sounds, only this time the referee didn't hear the siren and continued to play for 30-40 seconds, enough time for one of the teams to score the winning goal. The AFL made the decision a few days later to overturn the result, cancelling out the last goal and changing the result to a draw, it was the first time in the sports history a result was changed. It's not identical to what happened on Saturday but it's something to consider.

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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 10:55

That's sport. Mistakes happen, but the result should stand. Otherwise that's the definition of Pandora's box.
Where do you want to draw the line? Which missed thing is match deciding? Just a try in the last 5 minutes? What about an incident in the first minutes? etc. etc.
I feel for the Russians, but bad luck happens.
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Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 11:13

RugbyLiebe wrote:That's sport. Mistakes happen, but the result should stand. Otherwise that's the definition of Pandora's box.
Where do you want to draw the line? Which missed thing is match deciding? Just a try in the last 5 minutes? What about an incident in the first minutes? etc. etc.
I feel for the Russians, but bad luck happens.

Exactly. I know the 13-20 result is unfair. I know it has huge implications. I don't want us to win this Sunday by more than 7 points so Europe 1 spot is for Romania. But any decision from Rugby Europe other than letting this result stand would be the opening of a huge can of worms. Why changing this result and not England-Wales? Or Scotland-Australia from last RWC? Or why not playing the remaining minutes from Japan-Portugal U20? Is this happening only in case of a try where the conversion is easy? How do we judge that conversion is easy enough? Why not backtracking to clear yellow or red cards?

And regarding a rematch, it's costly in time and money and there aren't that many free weekends from now and April-May, when European RWC play-off game against Portugal must take place. Plus how would it be fairer a rematched game resulting in a bonus-point victory for either Russia or Spain than the current result or the "arranged" draw?
Last edited by Armchair Fan on Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 14:12, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby Canalina » Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 11:15

Agree, mistakes are part of the game and a judges' change of the score or a re-match would be (for me) an aberration and would open a Pandora's box of future complaints.
Despite that, I see now that an italian U20 player has been disqualified after the match vs Ireland for a stamping not seen by the referee but valued by the middle-week jury. The two cases (try and stamping) are different, I know, but what I want to say is that post-match revisions of referee's missing decisions are already accepted. As you say, anyway, every possible revision of that final score would be itself a storture.

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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 11:22

Yes, but punishing a player for a foul committed during X game by banning him in Y game doesn't interfere in the X result.
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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby Bogdan_DC » Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 11:25

I feel for the Russians (and a draw will qualify directly Romania) but there is no way to change the result.

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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby Zhenya_Zima » Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 11:29

Appeal is just a formal realisation of the "injustice".
Nothing is going to change the result, nor should it, as much as it hurts.

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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby Canalina » Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 11:46

About the referee mistake, in your opinion was it a real mistake or just bad luck?
Was him in the wrong position? Too low on his knees, maybe?

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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby Zhenya_Zima » Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 12:04

Canalina wrote:About the referee mistake, in your opinion was it a real mistake or just bad luck?
Was him in the wrong position? Too low on his knees, maybe?


Both the same thing, really. My real question would be of his assistant on the camera side, however...

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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby 4N » Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 13:02

Zhenya_Zima wrote:
Canalina wrote:About the referee mistake, in your opinion was it a real mistake or just bad luck?
Was him in the wrong position? Too low on his knees, maybe?


Both the same thing, really. My real question would be of his assistant on the camera side, however...


Or the ref not checking with the TJ...

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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby victorsra » Wed, 14 Feb 2018, 14:08

AFAIK, for FiFA it is possible to invalidate a result if a referee makes a "technical error", in other words, invents a rule that doens't exist (most famous case: Uzbekistan-Bahrein 2006 WC Qualy match... at least is the one I remember!).

But a referee "human error", like if he did not see something (the ball crossing the goal line, a penalty, an offside, a red card judgement...) doesn not allow a match to be invalidated.

I don't know if an international rugby match was ever invalidated but this was an human error and indeed would open the Pandora box.
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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby evil santa » Thu, 15 Feb 2018, 01:12

Canalina wrote:As someone else already pointed out, it is not necessary to have a person dedicated to the role of TMO: it could be enough an iPad on the hands of the fourth judge, to be used by the referee for the most doubtful actions. I think that in italian soccer is the referee the one directly seeing and valuing the video replays. This would be less expansive. Anyway, I think it is the first time we claim for a TMO: maybe it is not so necessary as it seems after this Krasnodar-affair.

Do you think big stadium screen is enough for that purpose? Krasnodar fans been on the match states that the screen was working and shown replay of that unnoticed try for several times.
Just in case - Kuban stadium screen:
Spoiler:
Image
The place of the try is to the left of the posts.
So the ref might have seen whole episode there.

----

As for the appeal - may be it would not change the final result, but at least it can help to initiate some changes in regulating such situations in future.

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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby Armchair Fan » Thu, 15 Feb 2018, 02:05

Don't forget one thing. TMO implies the use of additional cameras to those regularly used by TV signal (8 cameras? I believe some must be near corners). The fact all Rugby Europe Championship games are streamed doesn't mean TV broadcast alone already meets World Rugby requirements in terms of TMO, which would explain why some/any union claimed financial struggles whenever this was dicussed among Rugby Europe members.
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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby thatrugbyguy » Thu, 15 Feb 2018, 02:35

World Rugby should cover the cost as these are world cup qualifiers.

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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby FLIDTA RISXVA » Thu, 15 Feb 2018, 07:30

Armchair Fan
As far as TV | streaming became a MUST lately,
TMO should be avaliable at least at REIC TOP = Div 1 Level

It is AFFORDABLE these days --
even for GEO Big10 carrier, private owned, tiny *rugby tv*

@

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Re: 2018 REC : Russia v Spain - 10 Feb

Postby Bogdan_DC » Thu, 15 Feb 2018, 08:15

SuperLiga also have TMO in all matches aired on TV. If is on TV should have TMO even if is not with 8 cameras. It's still helps :geek: .

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