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RE Championship. The Future

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RE Championship. The Future

Postby RugInt » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 01:37

Its not my style to venture into the theory. I'm far more comfortable with the data and stats. But it is time I said something.

This weekends results so far
Georgia 64, Germany 0
Russia 48, Belgium 7.

Germany and Belgium are out of their depth at this level. There is no benefit to them or the other teams. Detrimental to the image of the game. Whose really interested in a thrashing?

Solution.
RE Championship.
Restrict to Georgia, Romania, Russia, Spain. Play home-away per season. Finish by end of April No automatic relegation.

RE Trophy
Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Poland, Switzerland, Czech Republic, Portugal, Moldova

Divide into North-South pools REC Trophy to be decided by end of April
North: Germany, Belgium, Netherlands, Poland
South: Portugal, Moldova, Switzerland, Czech Republic
Play home-away per season. Top in each pool play home-away final. Point difference decider. Winner can apply to challenge last in Championship.
No automatic Promotion. Trophy winner can challenge last in Championship at championship team home ground. Tough? My word yes. They either have to win or lose but with a good fight to progress to 2nd leg.

Criteria to challenge.
1) If Trophy winner wants to challenge
2) Challenge approved by Rugby Europe Council (by whatever criteria to be decided by RE, but it has to be STRICT!)
Both bottom pool teams automatically relegated to Conference. Both conference teams automatically promoted. North/South pools adjusted accordingly.
Must be decided by end of May.

You lot can come up with pros and cons. Ive done my bit 8-)
Last edited by RugInt on Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 01:46, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 01:40

Part of Germany's problems are domestic issues. The players the last two weeks are not the first choice players.

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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby victorsra » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 01:51

I think RE would never shut the door for Germany that way. They are a key team in the commercial aspect.

There is also a considerable gap IMO between Germany/Belgium/Portugal to the others. This would be bad for them.
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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby victorsra » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 02:05

One interesting thing: the South American Rugby Championship will be played by Uruguay XV, Chile XV and Brazil XV, development sides, to allow more players to have international experience and give better competition to Paraguay and Colombia (that otherwise would be smashed).

Canada, USA, Fiji. Samoa, Tonga already have this with the Americas Pacific Challenge and Pacific Rugby Cup.

Europe could have a short development competition too. I guess their problem would be calendar, but is it necessary to have long national leagues in those countries? We are talking about 2 or 3 weekends, maybe in September, maybe with Georgia XV, Romania XV, Russia XV, Spain XV playing Belgium, Netherland, Poland, Czech Rep, in a single venue, playoffs in the Rugby Europe junior rugby style. It would help those emerging countries.
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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby Buffalo » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 02:24

You could have a three level REC Division One.

REC Championship: Georgia, Romania, Russia and Spain

REC Trophy: Germany, Belgium, Portugal and the Netherlands

REC Shield: Switzerland, Czech Republic, Poland, Sweden, Moldova and Ukraine

I particularly like the look of the Trophy. Germany, Belgium and Portugal make a fairly even trio and the Netherlands seem to be doing things right though are a step behind in talent. Would be good experience for them like when Argentina got invited to TRC.

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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby victorsra » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 02:41

The current structure allows almost all the countries (except those few in the Rugby Europe Development Cup) to go from the 4th division to the 1st (Championship), which is an evolution from the past system and allows the minor Unions to work better (imagine tell a sponsor that even if you win ALL divisions in a row you need 10 years to go to the top of the continent, that is not even the real top...). Adding another division is not bad, but maybe the Shield should have 2 groups of 4 teams...
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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby antlat » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 06:17

How quickly we forget that Germany defeated Romania last year!!!!!!!!

REC is the best structured competition by far, no changes please. All sports from time to time have lopsided scorelines. This is a reality of sport. We already have a playoff between 6th Championship and Winner of Trophy.

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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby Silver Fox » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 08:56

I think you are all missing the point RugInt is trying to make.
It is not about results on the pitch but all about professionalising and commercialising the REC into an attractive 'product'.

You cannot sell it (to the general public or to the 6N) if the unions taking part in it are not up to standard.
It is all about setting the standard. If there are 6 unions that meet these standards than it's a 6-nations REC, if there are only 4 than restrict it to these 4.

And since there is a strong correlation between the professionality of a union and the results of the national teams I wouldn't bother about the occasional akward result.

[edit] Reading back I am not sure RugInt was thinking in this direction. But it doesn't matter, I am.

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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 09:33

I wrote this in another thread, but it's relevant here. These should be Rugby Europe's objective for professionalising the REC.

• Aim for average crowds of 15,000 per match for the REC
• Secure a TV right deal for at least the REC, (maybe the RET too if possible)
• Run a proper advertising campaign for the tournament
• Get the REC into mainstream rugby publications and media
• Find new investors and sponsors
• Improve the level of play across the divisions

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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby STMKY » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 10:03

You are in a hurry! Do you see what Spain has done? 20 new Frenchmen. And they became competitive for 2-3 years. The same thing the Germans did, but they have a scandal now. The same way went the Belgians, the Swiss. The Netherlands has a bottomless market in South Africa. Poland can easily find 10-15 players in France, England and Australia.
We need to think about how to create a European Cup so that European teams that can not get to the World Cup because of quotas can play top teams from 6 nations every 4 years.

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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby olivier » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 10:09

RugInt wrote:Its not my style to venture into the theory. I'm far more comfortable with the data and stats. But it is time I said something.

This weekends results so far
Georgia 64, Germany 0
Russia 48, Belgium 7.

Germany and Belgium are out of their depth at this level. There is no benefit to them or the other teams. Detrimental to the image of the game. Whose really interested in a thrashing?


That's barely where world of rugby understand nothing and learn nothing from the other sport ! Playing a better team is ALWAYS beneficiary for the lesser team and ALL rugby. :x
The problem is England never plays the Netherlands, NZ never plays Fiji, SA never plays Kenya. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. PARTITIONING IS THE PROBLEM.

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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby Silver Fox » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 10:40

I thought I had something sensible to add here but had to login again and lost my complete post. :evil: :evil:
An advice to all posters use notepad to make up your post and then load it here. F**** web-based apps.

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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby RugInt » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 10:46

Silver Fox wrote:
Reading back I am not sure RugInt was thinking in this direction. But it doesn't matter, I am.


Yes I was thinking that way when I said 'nobody wants to see a thrashing', and make promotion 'Strict'.

If Germany is having internal problems and can't field their best team they shouldn't be there.

Promotion/relegation at the highest level does not necessarily mean a worthy team is promoted, and sometimes a good team is unjustly relegated.

A poster wanted no change. This is the best competition format. It didn't start that way. It evolved, trial and error, possibly a lot of both. Are we seeking best practices when we do not seek any change.

Playing a better team is ALWAYS beneficiary for the lesser team and ALL rugby.

Really? NZ 145, Japan 17 Not sure where the benefit was there. I guess to be fair it depends. When all teams are meant to be competing at the same level and are roughly at the same standard I doubt a drubbing week in and week out does any good for the losing team, doesn't thrill sponsors and crowds dwindle.

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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 11:13

STMKY wrote:You are in a hurry! Do you see what Spain has done? 20 new Frenchmen. And they became competitive for 2-3 years. The same thing the Germans did, but they have a scandal now. The same way went the Belgians, the Swiss. The Netherlands has a bottomless market in South Africa. Poland can easily find 10-15 players in France, England and Australia.
We need to think about how to create a European Cup so that European teams that can not get to the World Cup because of quotas can play top teams from 6 nations every 4 years.


European Cup only becomes an option if the 6N are involved. July is the perfect time to play one but there are two problems to overcome, how do you increase the the standard of play across Europe, and how do you convince the 6 Nations to sacrifice tours to Aus, NZ, SA and Arg once every four years.

1. Standard of play
There's only a few professional clubs outside of the UK and France. Unless some rich billionaire wants to put his or her money into a bunch of professional teams across Europe the only answer is to follow Uruguay's and Hong Kong's development. Uruguay and Hong Kong have achieved much improvement by creating a professional structure in an amateur environment, so that should be the first place to look for ideas.

2. Convincing 6 Nations
The reality is the 6 Nations won't do anything unless there a competitive and commercial incentive to give up touring the southern hemisphere once every four years. Without teams being on at least a Georgia level of standard they won't be interested in a European Cup. You need at the very least 12 teams to make a European Cup work. Getting teams to be equal to, or near equal to Georgia has to be the goal. Romania aren't far behind so we don't need to include them in the discussion. Spain and Russia are obviously the best candidates to be able to reach that level, and Germany if they sort their issues out are only a step behind those two. It's the next batch of nations from there which we need to work on and where the Uruguay idea might be best suited - Belgium, Portugal, Netherlands, Poland, Czech Republic, Switzerland, Ukraine.

3. 'Trial' European Cup
An idea I recently thought of was to have a 'trial' European Cup. The idea is to have the England, Ireland, Scotland, Wales, France and Italy 'XV' teams playing in an annual competition involving the likes of Georgia, Romania, Spain, Russia, Germany etc. in July. Do this for a few years to improve the standard of play and then do a proper European Cup with the full 6N teams.

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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby STMKY » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 11:30

The first one or two tournaments with the most good 'XV' teams from 6 nations. Would be a good option. Hold a tournament in Georgia, Russia, Romania, Spain, Germany ...
If there is an equal game in most games and a good spectator interest, then the six nations can play the main compositions. I know that Artemiev wants to hold major tournaments in Russia. In 2019 in June they plan to play the Nations Cup in Russia. And in 2020 the stage of the World Series in Sochi on Fisht. He also said that the new football stadiums after the World Cup 2018 will be used for rugby too.

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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 11:42

Or hold the tournament in 2 or 3 nations. My suggestion is 12 teams, 3 Pools, each pool in a different nation. So Pool A might be in Russia, Pool B in Georgia, and Pool C in Romania, with one of the hosts getting the Semi-finals and Final. Which World Cup stadiums would Russia use?

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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby victorsra » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 12:04

Answer this: when? Because "A" sides are formed by players from the clubs anyway.
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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 12:08

There's a gap year between World Cup and Lions tours.

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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby STMKY » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 12:43

thatrugbyguy wrote:Or hold the tournament in 2 or 3 nations. My suggestion is 12 teams, 3 Pools, each pool in a different nation. So Pool A might be in Russia, Pool B in Georgia, and Pool C in Romania, with one of the hosts getting the Semi-finals and Final. Which World Cup stadiums would Russia use?

A total of 12 stadiums are built for WC2018. I think that 11 stadiums can be used for football and rugby if necessary. Besides FC Spartak stadium in Moscow, which is 100% private, to which the government has nothing to do.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_FIFA_World_Cup

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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby victorsra » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 12:48

thatrugbyguy wrote:There's a gap year between World Cup and Lions tours.

But which month?
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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 13:04

victorsra wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:There's a gap year between World Cup and Lions tours.

But which month?


July I think is the best time.

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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby victorsra » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 13:13

But from 2020 July will be the tests month. REC would need to give up from them.
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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 14:02

victorsra wrote:But from 2020 July will be the tests month. REC would need to give up from them.


The plan isn't perfect but something needs to be done for the REC and RET teams during the July Test season. Georgia and Romania might very well be touring, but that still leaves Russia, Spain and Germany needing decent matches. 6N XV teams plus Russia, Spain, Germany, Belgium, Portugal, Netherlands, Poland etc.

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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby victorsra » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 16:03

Yep, I think it is interesting, but there are impediments...
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Re: RE Championship. The Future

Postby JamesWales » Sun, 18 Feb 2018, 17:00

The answer is bloody obvious. Open up the game, with full promotion and relegation and proper qualification, including into a RWC of 24 teams and a European Challenge Cup of 24 teams.

Once there is a clear meritocracy and an opportunity to thrive then investment will follow. Why would someone invest in Belgian rugby when the furthest it can go is playing in Cluj in front of 1,500 people? Why invest in Munich Rugby Club when they cannot qualify fo europe with any ease?

Open the game up and things will start to change.

I'm embarrased at how World Rugby is still run by the old boys club, and as someone from Wales I apologise for it.

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