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Italy

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Italy

Postby Tomster7uk » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 13:51

Who thinks it's time for Italy to relegate into tier 2...and allow for Georgia or Romania into the Six Nations?

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Re: Italy

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 14:24

You've got here a long topic about this issue:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=940&start=775

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Re: Italy

Postby RugbyPUBtbilisi » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 14:39

Relegation - No!
Promotion - Yes!

Italy is important member of world Rugby and i am not for relegation.

Better to expand to 7 Nations, than 8 Nations and eventually become European Rugby Championship.

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Re: Italy

Postby Tomster7uk » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 14:59

What about rather than the Six Nations....

European Premiership

Top 7 nations

European Championship

The next top 7 nations

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Re: Italy

Postby Tobar » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 15:11

RugbyPUBtbilisi wrote:Relegation - No!
Promotion - Yes!

Italy is important member of world Rugby and i am not for relegation.

Better to expand to 7 Nations, than 8 Nations and eventually become European Rugby Championship.


While I believe Georgia is better suited for the 6 Nations than Italy I don't want to see the 6 Nations get expanded and eventually eliminated. An annual tournament between the Home nations and France/Italy is just great (honestly care more about Home nations than anything else).

At the same time I would also love to see a European Championship amongst the top 10-12 teams. It's been discussed ad nauseam how there really isn't a good window to have it nor would the bottom teams really be competitive, but I would still like to see it happen once every four years, at least.

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Re: Italy

Postby Canalina » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 15:26

There's a minor fact that maybe was never highlighted in the myriad of discussions on this theme: Georgia has not a women XV national team.
A men's Seven Nations without a women homologue (just six nations or with Spain instead of Georgia) would be somehow lame.
I think this is a collateral issue for Georgia's dream to be included in the tournament

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Re: Italy

Postby RugbyPUBtbilisi » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 15:32

Tobar wrote:
RugbyPUBtbilisi wrote:Relegation - No!
Promotion - Yes!

Italy is important member of world Rugby and i am not for relegation.

Better to expand to 7 Nations, than 8 Nations and eventually become European Rugby Championship.


While I believe Georgia is better suited for the 6 Nations than Italy I don't want to see the 6 Nations get expanded and eventually eliminated. An annual tournament between the Home nations and France/Italy is just great (honestly care more about Home nations than anything else).

At the same time I would also love to see a European Championship amongst the top 10-12 teams. It's been discussed ad nauseam how there really isn't a good window to have it nor would the bottom teams really be competitive, but I would still like to see it happen once every four years, at least.

And if Georgia enters this competition and becomes 7 Nations than you will not like it or will not watch it any more. Everything will be messed up. D

While nobody cares for developing faster and spreading this game, until you show them lots of USD.

If Germany could play as good as Georgia, there must have been 7N by now

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Re: Italy

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 15:33

Canalina wrote:There's a minor fact that maybe was never highlighted in the myriad of discussions on this theme: Georgia has not a women XV national team.
A men's Seven Nations without a women homologue (just six nations or with Spain instead of Georgia) would be somehow lame.
I think this is a collateral issue for Georgia's dream to be included in the tournament

Of all the acceptable reasons to justify why Italy must stay and Georgia isn't ready yet (because there is a list of them), do you think this precise one was the best? Let's not talk about this, come on...

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Re: Italy

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 15:34

Canalina wrote:There's a minor fact that maybe was never highlighted in the myriad of discussions on this theme: Georgia has not a women XV national team.
A men's Seven Nations without a women homologue (just six nations or with Spain instead of Georgia) would be somehow lame.
I think this is a collateral issue for Georgia's dream to be included in the tournament


So if we're looking for a holistic program for promotion/relegation there needs to be a nation that fields Men's XVs, Men's U20s, and Women's XVs...hmmm, Spain.

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Re: Italy

Postby RugbyPUBtbilisi » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 15:41

Canalina wrote:There's a minor fact that maybe was never highlighted in the myriad of discussions on this theme: Georgia has not a women XV national team.
A men's Seven Nations without a women homologue (just six nations or with Spain instead of Georgia) would be somehow lame.
I think this is a collateral issue for Georgia's dream to be included in the tournament


Am i dreaming now? Women XV? is it about it? We can field Women XV by tomorrow if that is what it takes to be included.

And nobody argues about Lelo's and U20 Georgia's strength...

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Re: Italy

Postby Canalina » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 15:45

Armchair Fan wrote:
Canalina wrote:There's a minor fact that maybe was never highlighted in the myriad of discussions on this theme: Georgia has not a women XV national team.
A men's Seven Nations without a women homologue (just six nations or with Spain instead of Georgia) would be somehow lame.
I think this is a collateral issue for Georgia's dream to be included in the tournament

Of all the acceptable reasons to justify why Italy must stay and Georgia isn't ready yet (because there is a list of them), do you think this precise one was the best? Let's not talk about this, come on...

I said "minor" and "collateral" :)
At the time the 6N board pushed to substitute Spain women with Italy women, despite in those years the spanish women team was stronger than the italian one (now they're more or less equal); so I think they're caring about a tournament with the same participants in every competition, a tournament "owned" by associated members competing with all their teams. This could have some (minor) weight every time the board members mumble about the hypothesis of an opening to Georgia

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Re: Italy

Postby 4N » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 15:48

Yes but the prior inclusion of Spain shows that both tournaments don't need to same six nations. Italy could continue to play if their men were "relegated" (something I don't see happening anyway).

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Re: Italy

Postby Tobar » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 16:03

RugbyPUBtbilisi wrote:
Canalina wrote:There's a minor fact that maybe was never highlighted in the myriad of discussions on this theme: Georgia has not a women XV national team.
A men's Seven Nations without a women homologue (just six nations or with Spain instead of Georgia) would be somehow lame.
I think this is a collateral issue for Georgia's dream to be included in the tournament


Am i dreaming now? Women XV? is it about it? We can field Women XV by tomorrow if that is what it takes to be included.

And nobody argues about Lelo's and U20 Georgia's strength...


Why doesn't Georgia have a women's team? It isn't that difficult to throw one together, even if it isn't that good. I know Georgia is a bit isolated from other rugby playing countries so that can't help.

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Re: Italy

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 16:09

Tobar wrote:Why doesn't Georgia have a women's team? It isn't that difficult to throw one together, even if it isn't that good. I know Georgia is a bit isolated from other rugby playing countries so that can't help.

They've got a 7s team, they even brought a female player when the new Canterbury shirts were unveiled. But it's in European third division. And like many other unions (Argentina is probably the highest profile one), they clearly don't give a damn about women's XV.

It's ludicrous to think that would be an obstacle to Georgia's inclusion in 6 Nations. There are many examples to show neither 6 Nations nor World Rugby do really care about women's XV.

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Re: Italy

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 16:12

Armchair Fan wrote:
Tobar wrote:Why doesn't Georgia have a women's team? It isn't that difficult to throw one together, even if it isn't that good. I know Georgia is a bit isolated from other rugby playing countries so that can't help.

They've got a 7s team, they even brought a female player when the new Canterbury shirts were unveiled. But it's in European third division. And like many other unions (Argentina is probably the highest profile one), they clearly don't give a damn about women's XV.

It's ludicrous to think that would be an obstacle to Georgia's inclusion in 6 Nations. There are many examples to show neither 6 Nations nor World Rugby do really care about women's XV.


World Rugby isn't giving anyone HP grants for women's programs, that is correct. Because Men's XVs is the cash cow. However, if you look at the Tyrells Premiership with the crowds they're drawing and the Women 6Ns crowds. Women's XVs is becoming a commercial enterprise at least for those countries.

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Re: Italy

Postby victorsra » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 18:11

What about rather than the Six Nations....

European Premiership

Top 7 nations

European Championship

The next top 7 nations


Problem 1: 6 Nations is a private organization, it is not linked to Rugby Europe. The 6 unions that compete in the 6 Nations own the competition, therefore we have two things: (a) they won't agree with the possibility of being relegated (of course, it's their competition); (b) the 6 nations is comercial-oriented, in other words, the 6 unions will only accept a new country if they see it will increase its value. The level of the teams is not the major point;

Problem 2
: French and English leagues. French and English unions don't own their clubs and must deal with them. Those clubs pay players' salaries (and not only Frence and England players). This means: the calendar can't be expanded (unless you want an open fight against those clubs... Sorry, World Rugby can't do anything as it is the clubs that pay the salaries);

My opinion for a Short-team Solution:

1- the current 6 Nations calendar has 2 bye weekends. They can be used them to expand the competition to an 8 Nations. However, 7 matches in a row mean that there must be some sort of "minutes cap" for players (a maximum number of minutes a player can play in the tournament). Players' welfare must be respected;

2 - The best way to expand IMHO is: (a) World Rugby/Rugby Europe enter the 6 (8) Natons Ltd as stakeholders; (b) the structure of each competition (men's, women's and U20s) should have the 6 core teams (that can't be relegated) and 2 non-core teams; (c) the 2 non-core teams face in June/July a Promotion-Relegation (Qualy) tournament with the best Rugby Europe Championship teams every year, in each competition;

- If this model becomes a success, it will be a question of time to change the structure to a league without core teams. This is a long-term transitional model.

We could have something like (exemple):

- Men's 8 Nations: England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, France, Italy (core), Georgia and Romania/Spain (non-core) - In June/July: Qualy Tournament with Georgia, Spain, Romania and Russia (round-robin or simple knock-out? Up to discussion);

- Rugby Europe Championship: Romania/Spain, Russia, Belgium, Germany, Portugal, Netherlands (keep it with 6...)

- Women's 8 Nations: England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, France, Italy (core), Spain, Netherlands (non-core) - In June/July: Qualy Tournament with Spain, Netherlands, Germany and Belgium;

- U20's 8 Nations: England, Wales, Scotland, Ireland, France, Italy (core), Georgia, Portugal (non-core) - In June/July: Qualy Tournament with Georgia, Portugal, Spain and Romania...

and so on
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Re: Italy

Postby Tobar » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 19:34

A core/non-core seems the most fair but this is where it will really start diluting the competition. Georgia should be able to play similarly as Italy does (despite people's beliefs that they cannot). I have serious reservations about Romania or Spain or anyone else's ability to keep it relatively competitive.

If, however, they do 7 matches and a summer match between the REC winner and non-core team as the qualifier then that will certainly create a buzz and get lots of interest behind it.

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Re: Italy

Postby Bogdan_DC » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 20:42

Tobar wrote:A core/non-core seems the most fair but this is where it will really start diluting the competition. Georgia should be able to play similarly as Italy does (despite people's beliefs that they cannot). I have serious reservations about Romania or Spain or anyone else's ability to keep it relatively competitive.

Are you aware for example of the Last 3 results beetween România vs Italy?

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Re: Italy

Postby Tobar » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 20:49

Bogdan_DC wrote:
Tobar wrote:A core/non-core seems the most fair but this is where it will really start diluting the competition. Georgia should be able to play similarly as Italy does (despite people's beliefs that they cannot). I have serious reservations about Romania or Spain or anyone else's ability to keep it relatively competitive.

Are you aware for example of the Last 3 results beetween România vs Italy?


Italy beat Romania the last two times they met in the World Cup. Those are the only times I can find them playing against each other in the past decade. Even if Romania beat Italy I'm not sure what your point is, are you saying that Romania can be competitive or are you saying that Romania can't be competitive?

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Re: Italy

Postby Bogdan_DC » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 21:01

They beat us with 6 & 10 points on neutral venue.Last time They play in România They lost. This facts are indicate that we are competitive against them. My point is Check your facts before make a statement. Thank you!

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Re: Italy

Postby Tobar » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 21:09

Bogdan_DC wrote:They beat us with 6 & 10 points on neutral venue.Last time They play in România They lost. This facts are indicate that we are competitive against them. My point is Check your facts before make a statement. Thank you!


I never said that they couldn't beat Italy, you misread my comment. I was saying that they wouldn't be as competitive in the competition which has 6 teams total. Italy is the worst team in the competition. If you can be competitive against the worst team in the competition then good for you. Good luck consistently playing against England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

Even if I was saying that Romania couldn't beat Italy, they've played each other 3 times in 14 years. That's a horrible data sample to work with. Just be careful with what you say before telling someone to check their facts.

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Re: Italy

Postby amz » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 21:18

So based on what data sample Georgia would be more competitive or as competitive as Italy?

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Re: Italy

Postby Bogdan_DC » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 21:22

How many games have Georgia than against 6N opposition in the last 14 years? Or to go straight to the problem: how many times 6N countries played in last 14 years against REC countries to talk about competing against each other?!

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Re: Italy

Postby Tobar » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 21:46

Bogdan_DC wrote:How many games have Georgia than against 6N opposition in the last 14 years? Or to go straight to the problem: how many times 6N countries played in last 14 years against REC countries to talk about competing against each other?!


Again, I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not suggesting that Georgia will be miraculously as good as the other teams. I'm suggesting that Georgia could potentially be as successful as Italy. Italy is a team that hasn't won a single 6 Nations match since 2015. In fact, in the 6 Nations era (2000-present) there have only been 3 years where Italy has had 2 victories against Tier 1 nations (all year, not just in the 6 Nations).

I'm not making wild claims here, I'm just suggesting that Georgia is a better team than Romania. You may think otherwise since you are Romanian and follow the team more closely as a result. Head to head, Romania has only beaten Georgia once since 2010 (an 8-7 victory). Georgia just recently lost at the last minute in a controversial ending to Wales 13-6, they lost to Argentina, but beat Canada and the US twice (I'll proudly say they only beat the US by a combined score of 3). In the past year Romania beat Samoa, Canada, Brazil, Germany, Russia and Belgium. They lost to Tonga, Japan and Spain. Now they may not even make the World Cup.

I'm not diminishing Romania at all, in fact, Romania is a better team than the US. I don't think we've even beaten you yet. I'm just saying that I think Georgia is a better team than Romania which is not outlandish to say at all.

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Re: Italy

Postby amz » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 21:54

No this doesnt have anything to do with Romania. What's your data sample to claim Georgia is as good as Italy?

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