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Re: Italy

Postby amz » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 15:03

victorsra wrote:Ok.

We should have core and non-core topics :lol:

Fix those hot topics like 6N Expansion and Georgia vs Romania in the top of the forum to avoid double threads.


Too crowded this place lately. :D I miss the times when everybody knew when Gorgodze sneezed, Fercu farts, Peluchon yawns, Van der Merwe scratches.

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Re: Italy

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 15:06

amz wrote: Actually Italy at some point defeated SA, which many seem to forget.

November 2016 is a very long time. How can you dare to bring that up after such a long time. :D

Italy and France should be both send to the RET to prove themselves there.
And once they've beaten everyone there for 9 years, we can talk about including them in the REC. But only after wooden spoon Germany is excluded (who likes Germans anyway) and only if they really won every single match. If they lose against each other every once in a while, we must stay firm and not allow them to enter.

amz wrote:Too crowded this place lately. :D I miss the times when everybody knew when Gorgodze sneezed, Fercu farts, Peluchon yawns, Van der Merwe scratches.

Even the annual Antim-brawl hasn't been lately what it used to be :?
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Italy

Postby Tobar » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 15:15

amz wrote:
Tobar wrote: You guys are taking this way too personally.


Nobody took personally your personally opinion but only the way you sent people to stats.


So this is where the weird stuff started coming out - I said Georgia can compete with Italy, then bogdan asked me about about Romania's last 3 results vs Italy and I said how that was an odd thing to bring up because they only played each other twice in the last 10 years - I genuinely wasn't sure if he was saying Romania was good or bad from this. I didn't bring up using stats, you guys did. And then told me to check my facts.

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Re: Italy

Postby amz » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 15:17

RugbyLiebe wrote:
amz wrote: Actually Italy at some point defeated SA, which many seem to forget.

November 2016 is a very long time. How can you dare to bring that up after such a long time. :D

Italy and France should be both send to the RET to prove themselves there.
And once they've beaten everyone there for 9 years, we can talk about including them in the REC. But only after wooden spoon Germany is excluded (who likes Germans anyway) and only if they really won every single match. If they lose against each other every once in a while, we must stay firm and not allow them to enter.


Getting defeated in 6 Nations, ridiculous. I think we should look at Argies too, TRC was quite bad for them, 0 points? How art they even are allowed there? Even Aussies or Saffas looked shabby so we probably need new countries. Germany is a surprising case, who would have thought they have humor? I am inclined to allow them for a while, everybody needs an Italy

RugbyLiebe wrote:
amz wrote:Too crowded this place lately. :D I miss the times when everybody knew when Gorgodze sneezed, Fercu farts, Peluchon yawns, Van der Merwe scratches.

Even the annual Antim-brawl hasn't been lately what it used to be :?


These nosy Spaniards spoiled all the fun. :roll:

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Re: Italy

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 15:24

Just some quick comparative stats.

Since (well including) the 2011 RWC Italy and Georgia have the following records against the "other 5N":

Code: Select all
Team        Pl    W    L    D    W%    For    Aga    Diff    Tries    Con    Pen    Drop    
Italy          43    4    39    0    9.30    564    1443    -879    57    38    60    7    
Georgia        5    0    5    0    0.00    45    161    -116          4    2    7    0



That's an Italian average defeat of 20.4 points (13-33) and a Georgian average defeat of 23.2 points (9-32).

Italy's average scores aren't moving any closer either. Whether we want promotion or relegation or not it is clear that Italy and Georgia are getting similar results. If Georgia had 40+ opportunities including roughly half at home I'm confident they'd have got a scalp or 4 as well.

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Re: Italy

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 15:28

amz wrote:so we probably need new countries.

Are you mad? New countries? The 4 Nations did very good without new countries for 33 years in their history, there is no need for any new countries. We already saw that it wasn't in the best interest of the game when expansion happened to this tournament. Why should one add any new countries?

Ask the convicts or the Kiwis to take part. Some goes for the Pro14. Saffas will do quite fine, they are nearly in the same time-zone and they don't speak that gibberish languages like those frogs and those mobsters do.

For those casual away trips one can still visit the former colonies. Oh what a splendid time lies ahead of us.


@sk88: thanks for hard numbers. Can you do that for Romania?
Last edited by RugbyLiebe on Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 15:53, edited 1 time in total.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Italy

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 15:31

And here Georgia & Italy's records in the same period for matches against Japan, Fiji, Samoa and Tonga (there nearest competitors really).

Code: Select all
Team    Mat    W    L  D    %            For    Aga    Diff    Tries    Conv    Pens    Drop    
Georgia    12    6    5    1    54.16    226    220    +6    20    15    32    0    
Italy       13    5    6    0    45.45    222    247    -25    22    20    24    0    




Again we're not really seeing a lot of difference here. And as these are a similar number of games played its much better to use a comparison.

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Re: Italy

Postby sk 88 » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 15:33

RugbyLiebe wrote:
@sk88: thanks for hard numbers. Can you do that for Romania?



Code: Select all
Team     Mat    WonDescending    Lost    Draw    %    For    Aga    Diff    Tries    Conv    Pens    Drop    
Italy     43    4    39    0    9.30    564    1443    -879    57    38    60    7    investigate this query
Georgia    5    0    5    0    0.00    45    161    -116    4    2    7    0    investigate this query
Romania     4    0    4    0    0.00    48    183    -135    4    2    8    0    investigate this query




See Romania at the bottom. Slightly worse results (mainly on defence), though even smaller sample again.

Just using ESPN website btw:

http://stats.espnscrum.com/statsguru/rugby/stats/index.html?class=1;opposition=1;opposition=2;opposition=3;opposition=4;opposition=9;spanmin1=1+Aug+2011;spanval1=span;team=12;team=20;team=81;template=results;type=team

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Re: Italy

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 15:34

British fans complain about the potential lack of an annual Calcutta Cup if relegation were to be implemented, but I don't know if this forum would survive to the lack of an Antim Cup.

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Re: Italy

Postby victorsra » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 17:21

Once more, none of the 6 nations will be relegated. 6N is not only about results, it is also (much) about market, that makes safe a country (Italy) with 60 million people that can average more than 50.000 people every match even if always losing.

British fans complain about the potential lack of an annual Calcutta Cup if relegation were to be implemented, but I don't know if this forum would survive to the lack of an Antim Cup.


That's why in my idea there is a June/July Qualy tournament that would have (almost) always the Antim brawl. An eventual 7-8 nations need a system that keeps countries from top and 2nd division somehow playing each other often, for the goodf health of the continent.
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Re: Italy

Postby Tobar » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 17:46

Is there any chance of adding a "tournament" between Italy, France, Georgia and Romania? It doesn't have to be a real tournament given the lack of space in scheduling but I would at least like to see test matches between Georgia and Romania with Tier 1 countries. Given their disappointment in the 6 Nations, it would be good for measurement to have France/Italy play them. Italy is playing Georgia in November which is a good start but it is very apparent (especially on this board) that these two countries don't get enough matches against some of the best teams who are just a few hours away.

I will also say even if Georgia beats Italy that will not be conclusive evidence that they will consistently be better and automatically deserve 6 Nations entry. The same goes if they lose. It will definiteyl stir the discussions if Georgia does win though.

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Re: Italy

Postby victorsra » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 18:02

Zero chance of having France playing another tournament. Their clubs even want Les Bleus to play just 2 june tests instead of 3. Unless it is the French Barbarians.
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Re: Italy

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 18:07

Let me remember Bernard Laporte explicitly promised Rugby Europe to push for 8 Nations expansion in exchange for their votes for France 2023 RWC bid. I know he's sending French Barbarians to Georgia, Altrad is doing business there and Romanian underage teams train with French teams, but there's margin to push...

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Re: Italy

Postby Higgik » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 18:18

The 6N will stay as it is as it involves the biggest financial unions, unless the Saffas join.

An international calendar needs re-evaluating.
All internationals played between August and end of October.
This would mean moving 6N to August and early September, layer at same time as TRC.

For the international 'window', this should be 7 weeks long and have a 4yr cycle to it.
Yr 1 regional champs
Yr 2 lions tour and others
Yr 3 international challenge
Yr 4 RWC

This cycle would enable the tier 2 nations to get some game time against tier 1 nations.
So, in Europe, the European Champ would be 10 teams, 6N + top 4 REC. Playing in 2 groups of 5 home or away, (4 matches over 5 weeks), then semi finals and finals (2 weeks)

Eg.
A Ireland, Scotland, Italy, Romania, Russia
B England, Wales, France, Georgia, Spain

The international challenge would put the champions of each region against each other home and away. So Europe 1, Africa 1, Oceania/Asia 1, Americas 1. The others would play a similar format but at 2 venues only to reduce travel costs.

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Re: Italy

Postby fullbackace » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 18:30

This is such a simpleton discussion about a complex situation. and enough with the results and statistics already this is not baseball.

every country is facing a different challenge and every country has to solve it on their own

Romania has shit youth system and general lack of interest from youth, But they have a professional league that sustains them and attracts foreign talent that can keep them competitive, unlike many people I have no problem with naturalization if it means keeping your team competetive.



Georgia has a great youth system U20, but domestic league/coaching is not good enough for them to reach 6N levels after graduating the U20s. To solve this they need a Franchise or two (East/West Georgia) and they need to compete in a top league. Pro14/Super Rugby etc. If we don't find a way to make this happen we will permanently be stuck in this grey area slightly below 6N levels.

Italy has all the doors open to succeed but so far they have come up short because ??(we don't fucking know, so just call it management problems)


So as it stands of course Italy has the most potential out of those three, they have teams in top league. Their fate is in their own hands. They just need to get their shit together.

At the same time Georgia and Romania need to work 10 times harder to reach or maintain the level of Italy because they are handicapped by problems they can't control.

As for 6N, I don't want to play with the Brits annually, they obviously don't give two fucks about spreading rugby or anyone outside their kind(as far as Rugby fandom goes) so I'd rather not have same hate directed towards Georgia that is directed towards France and Italy every year.
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Re: Italy

Postby victorsra » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 18:46

An international calendar needs re-evaluating.
All internationals played between August and end of October.
This would mean moving 6N to August and early September, layer at same time as TRC.


Well, they have just discussed and changed the calendar and it wasn't great. The 6N explicitly blocked any idea of being moved from February-March.
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Re: Italy

Postby BigG » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 18:47

one more problem: a good will gesture from 6Ns. Let's put aside Six Nations' issue at senior team level. They promised us (Georgians) to include U20 Georgia in U20 Six Nations (as well as Romania or somebody else from t2). When it came to real inclusion, response was humiliating: we (6 Ns) are ready to have games with U20 Georgia, however not regular, but managed (I am nor sure if I use this term correctly) games. Hopefully you understand what kind of game they meant - something like training. What I am saying is unofficial, but trust me. I have this info from very reliable people.
A bottom line is that Six Nations does not even think to strengthen t2 countries.

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Re: Italy

Postby victorsra » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 19:13

That's why I believe the only way is to have World Rugby pursuing a position as 6N Ltd stakeholders, because it is the only organization with money/power for such move. They would have a better position to discuss. What would they give to the 6N is a question however. Certainly a stronger support in the matters related to how they can deal with the clubs, to secure the balance of power pending in favour of the unions. World Rugby won't impose things (leagues vs federations is an issue in every wealthy professional sport), but they can find better positions to discuss those issues.
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Re: Italy

Postby Canalina » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 19:20

victors wrote:...The 6N explicitly blocked any idea of being moved from February-March.

Have they explained why? I'm sure they have good reasons, would be interesting to know which.

BigG wrote:A bottom line is that Six Nations does not even think to strengthen t2 countries.

So, why they are desperately searching to empower Italy? And why they helped France to become great, in the past decades?

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Re: Italy

Postby fullbackace » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 19:26

Canalina wrote:
victors wrote:...The 6N explicitly blocked any idea of being moved from February-March.

Have they explained why? I'm sure they have good reasons, would be interesting to know which.

BigG wrote:A bottom line is that Six Nations does not even think to strengthen t2 countries.

So, why they are desperately searching to empower Italy? And why they helped France to become great, in the past decades?


Their primary motivation is money, If Rugby is spread as a result of money ventures that's great. But they don't put Rugby first.
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Re: Italy

Postby Canalina » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 19:49

It's surprising that those greedy people organize since the beginning of the 6N a parallel U20 tournament and a parallel women tournament, even if the women rugby seemed to have no market at all and even if the U20 tournament has -also nowadays- problems to sell the TV rights (no televisions transmitting Scotland's and Italy's home matches in this edition, if I'm not wrong).
It's also surprising that the more noble REC nations have not similar U20 and women tournaments...

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Re: Italy

Postby RugbyPUBtbilisi » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 19:59

Canalina wrote:It's also surprising that the more noble REC nations have not similar U20 and women tournaments...


U20 Georgia is wau too strong for REC U20.

And U20 6nations + Georgia and Romania is forgotten after the agreement.

What is happening about that tournament? Are they going to actually hold it or ots another lie.

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Re: Italy

Postby Canalina » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 20:13

I hope this is a joke. A very good one, I say.
You georgian and romanian fans fulfilled dozens and dozens of forum pages with complaints about the 6N snobbism and now you say that you don't want to play a REC U20 tournament because you are too strong? :geek:

I've nothing against Georgia and Romania. I appreciate a lot the georgian rugby passion (the romanian one seems unfortunately more tepid, lately, judging by some recent empty stadiums) and I'd like to see these and other european nations improve and even to see them defeating Italy, if this means a general growth of rugby. I don't like the "it's all fault of the big nations" attitude

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Re: Italy

Postby victorsra » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 20:19

6 Nations is a so good product they probably don't want to change its period because of TV contracts and the fact that they reign in February-March. It is a pretty good time in the year (after Super Bowl, before soccer finals, nba finals, in the early stage of the Super Rugby... they can be watched everywhere).

I don't think 6N lies. They never told anybody they are the European Championship. They are the league of those 6 countries, period.
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Re: Italy

Postby rey200 » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 20:49

Yet another crypto Georgia vs Romania thread. Yawn

edit: ok the last posts are on track again, but really, can you stop going to ItalyvsGeorgiavsRomania on every f**** thread? it's really annoying
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