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Italy

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Re: Italy

Postby Tobar » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 22:48

I was just suggesting that Georgia as a 7th team makes sense but to be cautious about the 8th team which would just widen the gap even further. I just listed some of the successes of Georgia over the past year and we all know they’ve consistently been on the top of the REC for the past 7 years ago. Also take into account the fact that they are ranked 12th in the world, despite the faulty system that the world rankings are, and that’s how I come to the conclusion that Georgia may be able to compete similarly as Italy does.

Again, this isn’t an outrageous statement to make so I don’t get why you guys are treating it like it is.

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Re: Italy

Postby eal22 » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 23:42

To be honest Italy should be relegated and no one promoted. The last thing the Six Nations needs is another easy-beat. Go back to the Five Nations and let Italy fight it out with teams more at their level like Romania and Georgia.

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Re: Italy

Postby Armchair Fan » Tue, 13 Mar 2018, 23:45

Five Nations means less games, less revenues and an uneven schedule.

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Re: Italy

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 01:38

I'd also like to point out France isn't exactly running smoothly these days either. Ireland and England are clearly the best two sides in the 6N at the moment, Scotland has finally started to make progress after almost 20 years, Wales seems to be permanently stuck in the middle getting neither better or worse, and France seems to be going backwards. There's probably more of an argument to be made now about reverting to a Home Nations championship than there is expanding the 6 Nations or adding promotion and relegation.

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Re: Italy

Postby ihateblazers » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 02:25

All things considered maybe it would be better if the home nations just went back to an isolated competition and France and Italy joined Europe once more with Belgium and Germany relegated or have 8 teams with 2 pools.

The general contempt there is towards the French from the Irish and BBC (borderline racist at times) in particular must make them wonder why they participate apart from the cash cow factor. It would boost crowds in Spain and Romania as well and could grow into something. Can't see it happening with the financial hit Italy and France would have to take short term

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Re: Italy

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 03:26

It would have to be something pretty extraordinary for that to happen. Never knew there was such animosity towards the French from the UK and Irish press.

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Re: Italy

Postby SallesNeto_BR » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 04:50

thatrugbyguy wrote:I'd also like to point out France isn't exactly running smoothly these days either. Ireland and England are clearly the best two sides in the 6N at the moment, Scotland has finally started to make progress after almost 20 years, Wales seems to be permanently stuck in the middle getting neither better or worse, and France seems to be going backwards. There's probably more of an argument to be made now about reverting to a Home Nations championship than there is expanding the 6 Nations or adding promotion and relegation.


Hello, France just has beaten England four days ago

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Re: Italy

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 05:18

The same France who haven't finished higher than second in the 6N in the last 9 years and who have struggled to find any consistency against anyone in recent years who until recently were languishing 10th in the world rankings.

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Re: Italy

Postby Silver Fox » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 05:42

If it weren't for that Johnny Sexton's last second dropgoal France would be in a strong position to win the tournament.

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Re: Italy

Postby Bogdan_DC » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 06:59

I don't like Mr Brunel either but they lose at the last grasp against Scotland &Ireland and win against England&Italy changing a lot of players.France is never an outsider.

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Re: Italy

Postby Canalina » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 07:35

Fortunately you started to target France now. It's like when Mr Burns begins to scold Lenny or Karl and usual victim Homer may breath a sigh of relief :)

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Re: Italy

Postby Bogdan_DC » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 07:46

Canalina wrote:Fortunately you started to target France now. It's like when Mr Burns begins to scold Lenny or Karl and usual victim Homer may breath a sigh of relief :)

:)))))))))))))))))

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Re: Italy

Postby amz » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 08:38

Tobar wrote:I was just suggesting that Georgia as a 7th team makes sense but to be cautious about the 8th team which would just widen the gap even further. I just listed some of the successes of Georgia over the past year and we all know they’ve consistently been on the top of the REC for the past 7 years ago. Also take into account the fact that they are ranked 12th in the world, despite the faulty system that the world rankings are, and that’s how I come to the conclusion that Georgia may be able to compete similarly as Italy does.

Again, this isn’t an outrageous statement to make so I don’t get why you guys are treating it like it is.


The way you contradict yourself and show off your ignorance is delicious, too tasty to miss, this is why. As you cited data between Italy and Romania also check data between Romania and Georgia. There are maybe 7 REC wins but all matches with one exception were very narrow, less than one try business (or draw) with one exception in 2016 when Oaks traveled with an experimental side.

Tobar wrote:A core/non-core seems the most fair but this is where it will really start diluting the competition. Georgia should be able to play similarly as Italy does (despite people's beliefs that they cannot). I have serious reservations about Romania or Spain or anyone else's ability to keep it relatively competitive.

If, however, they do 7 matches and a summer match between the REC winner and non-core team as the qualifier then that will certainly create a buzz and get lots of interest behind it.


Based on what data do you think Georgia would play at a similar level with Italy? Because as we already saw, you deem the rankings faulty and you cannot compare the opposition Italy played with the opposition Georgia played. Actually Italy at some point defeated SA, which many seem to forget. In June they kept close of Aussies, in 6N had a very good match vs England etc. So on what other than your feeling you think this?

When you are asked about data, you start to cherry pick whatever you like and become a little arrogant.

Tobar wrote:I never said that they couldn't beat Italy, you misread my comment. I was saying that they wouldn't be as competitive in the competition which has 6 teams total. Italy is the worst team in the competition. If you can be competitive against the worst team in the competition then good for you. Good luck consistently playing against England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

Even if I was saying that Romania couldn't beat Italy, they've played each other 3 times in 14 years. That's a horrible data sample to work with. Just be careful with what you say before telling someone to check their facts.


So we have horrible data, not only for Romania/Italy but also Georgia yet you sent others to check their facts. By contrast you suggesting you checked yours yet I don't see any data so suggest Georgia would compete at the same time with Italy since the occasions to play similar oppositions were so few. We have a close match vs an experimental Welsh side (they wouldn't have played that in 6N), one pretty heavy defeat vs Scotland and one good match yet defeat vs a rebuilding Argentinian side which stuggle itself with having to deal with players from only one team, Jaguares. Horrible data to work with, I know.

Than you probably checked your facts:

Tobar wrote:Again, I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not suggesting that Georgia will be miraculously as good as the other teams. I'm suggesting that Georgia could potentially be as successful as Italy. Italy is a team that hasn't won a single 6 Nations match since 2015. In fact, in the 6 Nations era (2000-present) there have only been 3 years where Italy has had 2 victories against Tier 1 nations (all year, not just in the 6 Nations).

I'm not making wild claims here, I'm just suggesting that Georgia is a better team than Romania. You may think otherwise since you are Romanian and follow the team more closely as a result. Head to head, Romania has only beaten Georgia once since 2010 (an 8-7 victory). Georgia just recently lost at the last minute in a controversial ending to Wales 13-6, they lost to Argentina, but beat Canada and the US twice (I'll proudly say they only beat the US by a combined score of 3). In the past year Romania beat Samoa, Canada, Brazil, Germany (wrong), Russia and Belgium. They lost to Tonga, Japan and Spain. Now they may not even make the World Cup.

I'm not diminishing Romania at all, in fact, Romania is a better team than the US. I don't think we've even beaten you yet. I'm just saying that I think Georgia is a better team than Romania which is not outlandish to say at all.


Romania also beat US and Canada (last time 60 minutes in 14 players away), Samoa, narrowly lost with Tonga after winning few years before vs them. I do agree with your statement that Georgia is slightly a better team (although their REC performance this year was dire) and you forgot to add a home loss to Japan. The best thing they did compared with other T2 is that they had consistently the same squad so administratively they've done admirably. Yet I don't find how you can asses they'd be at the same level with Italy in 6N because, again, where is the data to work with? You claimed for for other data yet you fail to show yours. So stop claiming you base your statements on some sort of benchmarks because until 2019 when supposedly we will see more tests vs T1.

Canada may not make it to WC as well yet they'll play Scotland home in June, btw. I think you're continent is way too privileged with qualification chances despite failing in last 4 - 5 years to send a squad in Europe to beat the top REC teams or even win home. So your last argument with "may not make it to RWC" is as faulty as the rankings. :)

Later edit: to discuss France that way is laughable, get back in your senses thatrugbyguy

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Re: Italy

Postby Raven » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 10:29

I like the 6 Nations as it is... but there should be a way other European teams get to compete with these 6 sides and not only every 4 years if seeded in the same pool.

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Re: Italy

Postby RugbyPUBtbilisi » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 10:37

amz wrote:
The way you contradict yourself and show off your ignorance is delicious, too tasty to miss, this is why. As you cited data between Italy and Romania also check data between Romania and Georgia. There are maybe 7 REC wins but all matches with one exception were very narrow, less than one try business (or draw) with one exception in 2016 when Oaks traveled with an experimental side.


As you wish here is Data for last 12 games:

2007 - Bucharest - Georgian victory +3
2008 - Tbilisi - Georgian victory +15
2009 - Tbilisi - Georgian victory +5
2010 - Bucharest - Romanian victory +12
2011 - Tbilisi - Georgian Victory +6
2011 - RWC - Georgian Victory +16
2012 - Bucharest - Georgian Victory +6
2013 - Bucharest - DRAW
2014 - Tbilisi - Georgian Victory +13
2015 - Bucharest - Georgian Victory +9
2016 - Tbilisi - Georgian Victory +29
2017 - Bucharest - Romanian Victory +1
2018 - Tbilisi - 4 days left

Last time Romania lost to Georgia with 1 try "business" was back in 2012 dear AMZ...
last 12 matches Geo vs Rom:
Georgia +89 points
Georgia +11 Tries



Georgia lost matches last 2 years:
2017:
Wales 13 - 6 Georgia - 1 try "business"
Argentina 45 - 29 Georgia -16
Romania 8 - 7 Georgia - 1 try "business"

2016:
Georgia 22 - 28 Japan - 1 try "business"
Scotland 43 - 16 Georgia -27

Romania lost with Germany and Spain last 2 years. I think losing to Japan with 1 try "Business" is more descent result than losing to Spain with 12 points...

Facts are facts, you can not manipulate facts or statistics.

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Re: Italy

Postby Armchair Fan » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 10:39

Losing to Germany and Spain isn't pretty in Romania's CV but doesn't take away anything from Romania's ability to be competitive against higher-ranked teams.

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Re: Italy

Postby amz » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 11:30

RugbyPUBtbilisi wrote:
Facts are facts, you can not manipulate facts or statistics.


What I manipulate? Those score you list you see in 6N, The Rugby Championship curently. Hell there are bigger differences yet nobody speaks about massive dominance. Get back in your senses, many of those games could have gone either way. I didn't denied Georgia's edge in last decade, what I said it is not as big as some like to think.

Don't forget that the only REC team that gave a good game in the same last decade, constantly was Romania, nobody else.

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Re: Italy

Postby victorsra » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 13:12

Is this really part of a discussion about Italy?
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Re: Italy

Postby amz » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 13:16

victorsra wrote:Is this really part of a discussion about Italy?


We have a thread about Italy from years. Do we really need a second one? You weren't so butthurt when the discussion went to women rugby in this topic :)

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Re: Italy

Postby Raven » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 14:04

Armchair Fan wrote:Losing to Germany and Spain isn't pretty in Romania's CV but doesn't take away anything from Romania's ability to be competitive against higher-ranked teams.


You are right, but it also shows that there is a gap closing up from some T3 sides with T2, and not as many T2s with T1, one off games aside. IMPO not even Georgia with Italy.

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Re: Italy

Postby amz » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 14:12

Georgia did receive fewer chances than they deserved as well, the ones who keep getting them are only Japan and the Islanders. Others didn't received any e.g Romania not one outside RWC since 2006.

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Re: Italy

Postby victorsra » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 14:27

We have a thread about Italy from years. Do we really need a second one? You weren't so butthurt when the discussion went to women rugby in this topic :)


No dude. It is all about Italy at least. Not Georgia vs Romania. Italy has nothing to do with the ultimate problem who is the best in the Black Sea.
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Re: Italy

Postby Tobar » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 14:31

amz wrote:
Tobar wrote:I was just suggesting that Georgia as a 7th team makes sense but to be cautious about the 8th team which would just widen the gap even further. I just listed some of the successes of Georgia over the past year and we all know they’ve consistently been on the top of the REC for the past 7 years ago. Also take into account the fact that they are ranked 12th in the world, despite the faulty system that the world rankings are, and that’s how I come to the conclusion that Georgia may be able to compete similarly as Italy does.

Again, this isn’t an outrageous statement to make so I don’t get why you guys are treating it like it is.


The way you contradict yourself and show off your ignorance is delicious, too tasty to miss, this is why. As you cited data between Italy and Romania also check data between Romania and Georgia. There are maybe 7 REC wins but all matches with one exception were very narrow, less than one try business (or draw) with one exception in 2016 when Oaks traveled with an experimental side.

Tobar wrote:A core/non-core seems the most fair but this is where it will really start diluting the competition. Georgia should be able to play similarly as Italy does (despite people's beliefs that they cannot). I have serious reservations about Romania or Spain or anyone else's ability to keep it relatively competitive.

If, however, they do 7 matches and a summer match between the REC winner and non-core team as the qualifier then that will certainly create a buzz and get lots of interest behind it.


Based on what data do you think Georgia would play at a similar level with Italy? Because as we already saw, you deem the rankings faulty and you cannot compare the opposition Italy played with the opposition Georgia played. Actually Italy at some point defeated SA, which many seem to forget. In June they kept close of Aussies, in 6N had a very good match vs England etc. So on what other than your feeling you think this?

When you are asked about data, you start to cherry pick whatever you like and become a little arrogant.

Tobar wrote:I never said that they couldn't beat Italy, you misread my comment. I was saying that they wouldn't be as competitive in the competition which has 6 teams total. Italy is the worst team in the competition. If you can be competitive against the worst team in the competition then good for you. Good luck consistently playing against England, Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

Even if I was saying that Romania couldn't beat Italy, they've played each other 3 times in 14 years. That's a horrible data sample to work with. Just be careful with what you say before telling someone to check their facts.


So we have horrible data, not only for Romania/Italy but also Georgia yet you sent others to check their facts. By contrast you suggesting you checked yours yet I don't see any data so suggest Georgia would compete at the same time with Italy since the occasions to play similar oppositions were so few. We have a close match vs an experimental Welsh side (they wouldn't have played that in 6N), one pretty heavy defeat vs Scotland and one good match yet defeat vs a rebuilding Argentinian side which stuggle itself with having to deal with players from only one team, Jaguares. Horrible data to work with, I know.

Than you probably checked your facts:

Tobar wrote:Again, I think you're misunderstanding me. I'm not suggesting that Georgia will be miraculously as good as the other teams. I'm suggesting that Georgia could potentially be as successful as Italy. Italy is a team that hasn't won a single 6 Nations match since 2015. In fact, in the 6 Nations era (2000-present) there have only been 3 years where Italy has had 2 victories against Tier 1 nations (all year, not just in the 6 Nations).

I'm not making wild claims here, I'm just suggesting that Georgia is a better team than Romania. You may think otherwise since you are Romanian and follow the team more closely as a result. Head to head, Romania has only beaten Georgia once since 2010 (an 8-7 victory). Georgia just recently lost at the last minute in a controversial ending to Wales 13-6, they lost to Argentina, but beat Canada and the US twice (I'll proudly say they only beat the US by a combined score of 3). In the past year Romania beat Samoa, Canada, Brazil, Germany (wrong), Russia and Belgium. They lost to Tonga, Japan and Spain. Now they may not even make the World Cup.

I'm not diminishing Romania at all, in fact, Romania is a better team than the US. I don't think we've even beaten you yet. I'm just saying that I think Georgia is a better team than Romania which is not outlandish to say at all.


Romania also beat US and Canada (last time 60 minutes in 14 players away), Samoa, narrowly lost with Tonga after winning few years before vs them. I do agree with your statement that Georgia is slightly a better team (although their REC performance this year was dire) and you forgot to add a home loss to Japan. The best thing they did compared with other T2 is that they had consistently the same squad so administratively they've done admirably. Yet I don't find how you can asses they'd be at the same level with Italy in 6N because, again, where is the data to work with? You claimed for for other data yet you fail to show yours. So stop claiming you base your statements on some sort of benchmarks because until 2019 when supposedly we will see more tests vs T1.

Canada may not make it to WC as well yet they'll play Scotland home in June, btw. I think you're continent is way too privileged with qualification chances despite failing in last 4 - 5 years to send a squad in Europe to beat the top REC teams or even win home. So your last argument with "may not make it to RWC" is as faulty as the rankings. :)

Later edit: to discuss France that way is laughable, get back in your senses thatrugbyguy


Well, this will teach me to make a comment on this page that someone disagrees with. You guys may disagree with me which is perfectly fine but you don't have to be dicks about it. I may have sounded arrogant because I didn't appreciate being talked down to and given snarky responses - like being told to check my facts about something that I didn't say (and actually providing the facts as well). And then you come around with a comment like:

The way you contradict yourself and show off your ignorance is delicious, too tasty to miss, this is why.


The way I show off my ignorance is delicious. Who says things like this? Seriously, this is the kind of thing you say to someone who is adamant that Georgia can beat New Zealand, not someone who think that Georgia can perform as well as Italy in the 6 Nations (which as I mentioned they haven't won a single time since 2015, not really setting the bar too high).

I haven't cherry picked any stats. I just showed the results from the past year, I don't know how I could've cherry picked that. If they didn't play in the past year, I didn't include it. I didn't include Japan because they played in 2016, not the past year. I mistakenly said that Romania only beat Georgia once in the REC since 2010, but that was also the RWC. Not all of them were that close - 15-6 22-9, 25-9 and 38-9, though the rest were within a try or draws. I was also apparently wrong about Romania playing Georgia, something I'm very confused about because they played each other last month.

At the end of the day though, I really want to emphasize that this is not my firm belief nor is it set in stone. I have no skin in this game and if I learn otherwise from people who know more about the teams involved. If you came about and said that you thought Canada was better than the US then I wouldn't find it that outrageous considering their history. However, if I suggest that Georgia could be as competitive as Italy or is just better than Romania I get the same reaction as telling my girlfriend "yeah, I guess that girl is attractive." You guys are taking this way too personally.

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Re: Italy

Postby amz » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 14:35

Victor, may I remind you the initial start?

Tomster7uk wrote:Who thinks it's time for Italy to relegate into tier 2...and allow for Georgia or Romania into the Six Nations?


Armchair Fan wrote:You've got here a long topic about this issue:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=940&start=775


Tobar wrote: You guys are taking this way too personally.


Nobody took personally your personally opinion but only the way you sent people to stats.

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Re: Italy

Postby victorsra » Wed, 14 Mar 2018, 14:58

Ok.

We should have core and non-core topics :lol:

Fix those hot topics like 6N Expansion and Georgia vs Romania in the top of the forum to avoid double threads. In fact, this is a serious suggestion. Those topics and the general Continents topics (Canalina will like it :) ).
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