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2018 African Gold Cup (COMPLETED)

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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby Sick » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 05:57

victorsra wrote:
How many Brazil matches in 2018 have you watched to claim Brazil is not fit? Tupis changed a lot since Bucharest match, dude.


None against the first squad of a union that fields tough, physical players and has a style of play that relies heavily on the pack, scrum and forward play. Improves yes. Change is a too big of a word fpr me.at the moment. If you rank higher than second to last in Rugby Americas 2019 then I'll be fine about change.

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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby victorsra » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 06:49

Let's try again: have you watched any Brazil match in 2018 to make such statement?
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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby Bogdan_DC » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 07:13

victorsra wrote:Let's try again: have you watched any Brazil match in 2018 to make such statement?


I watched dude. You was totally wasted 50-60 minutes by Argies in a +30 points deficit and your comeback was made after they put all the subs in.
I also was at the game vs you in Romania. The Oaks should score much more but they stopped after 1 hour...it was a very hot day. Every scrum or maul was a torture for your team.
What happened in the last year? You learn to scrum?

Nobody says you are not making progress but a team like Romania or Georgia will break your back in the scrums right now. In the future who knows, you can be world champions. But right now learn to scrum! Argies and Uruguay can give you some tips and tricks about it.

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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby amz » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 07:15

victorsra wrote:That changed. Watch Brazil vs Argentina XV


Sorry but I am fed up with Argentina XV. They only once beat Romania (2011) and with or without Islanders we beat them every time and in 2013 we put the biggest margin on them from Arg XV's history. It is only a development team and even if fielded players like Tuculet, Gonzales Iglesias, Imhoff, Agulla, Tetaz Chaparro, Ortega Desio, de la Fuente, Alemmano, Facundo Bosch etc. But this quality in players does not make them a true test side so I am taking with a pinch of salt anything in Americas Rugby Championship because imo the standard of involved sides decreased this year as many did not called all their best players from abroad.

It is a nice win that shows guts but it is still far of standard T2 tests from June/November of tests between top sides from REC. I mean, Russia was mediocre and had varied form but this didn't stopped them to put a big margin on a Canadian side which is comparable with the side which played in ARC.

Maybe your players have better fitness these days but they're still small in forwards compared with what other T2 sides can field and this won't be different soon. Besides, the strategy of a full local side have its strong points (good cohesion, look at Portugal U20) but will hit a level from which it will be almost impossible to develop without players involved in top tier competitions (UK, France, Super Rugby, ITM Cup, Currie Cup etc.) I mean, look at Namibia how strong is compared with the other African sides and the difference is made by Welwitschias and players from abroad. Same apply for Kenya where is talent but it seems there's no serious plan for XV and they severely lack forwards. Germany become competitive when they were able to field a sizeable forward pack with experience from T1 clubs, even from lower divisions.

Btw, I watched many ARC matches, Brazil ones included, the one vs Argentina XV too. And maybe you'll find better stadiums in the future. Ours is maybe small but at least is not in a cornfield.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DMGiQhAT6ks

4N wrote:Lebanon RL were a sensation and probably had more fans at RLWC 2018 than Namibia at all of their RWC appearances combined. Algeria at France 2023 would be even bigger, they would pack out stadiums with passionate fans. Remember there are millions of Algerian descendants in France. The Algerian soccer team in heavily French-born.

No one is saying anything negative about Germany or Spain. I'm sure Spain would have lots of support in France. Romania do not really bring many fans as we have seen in the past.


I am still trying to get your rationale. OK, attendances maybe are small but you basically advocate against what you preach with development of rugby from kids and age grades up to national team, you are saying a team completely lacking such history it would be good for rugby. As for Romania, we still keep the record of attendance at RWC. Beat this first :twisted:

Namibia is scoring 100 pts and was so close of Georgia last RWC yet you are thinking they stink and useless and so on. Let's see an African side of their calier than start advocate the death of Namibian rugby due to lack of public. You know what? Advocate for a tournament of Maori All Blacks in Europe to play vs Romania, Georgia and Spain, I am sure you'll see bigger crowds even in Romania but no, let's send them instead to play newbies like Chile and Brazil.

There are millions of Algerians in France (although I am not sure how many of them consider themselves Algerians) but they are not needed to fill RWC stadiums, it will not be an issue so your point is superfluous. Attendance issues are in some T1 comps as well, including SR.

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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby Canalina » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 07:39

The official report about day 3 of the competition; nothing special but it's good they do it. Rugby Europe Championship could think to do the same


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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby Sick » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 07:49

victorsra wrote:Let's try again: have you watched any Brazil match in 2018 to make such statement?



Sure i saw 3 matches from Rugby Americas Championship 2018: against Canada, USA and Argentina, btw you struggled to beat Chile then.
And i saw the Argentina XV game from sudamerica or however you call it now.

The USA you fought is a different USA that beat Scotland. I'll bet there are tops 6 players that played both matches as starters.

Improved yes. About something changing, be 3rd last next Rugby Americas and I'll jump on the bandwagon.

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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby Sick » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 07:51

The t2 or 3 team that has been making the most noise is the one we don't talk much about: Japan

THEY HAVE "CHANGED".

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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby Thomas » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 08:53

The following reports came out overnight

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-44699168
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-unio ... 4zpfd.html

Anyone knows what has happened? has the issue resolved?

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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby amz » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 08:57

Yes, we discussed yesterday morning about, apparently it was solved during yesterday but nevertheless, a very unfortunate incident who puts African rugby in a bad light.

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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby 4N » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 12:20

There are millions of Algerians in France (although I am not sure how many of them consider themselves Algerians)


Don't get confused by the irrelevant discussion about Algerian history on the T3 thread. There are millions of Algerian Algerians in France, not pieds-noirs or anything else. People like Zidane, Benzema etc. Surely you are smart enough to look at the Algerian Dream XV and read the names and understand. Or to look at the Algerian soccer team and see the percentage born in France. Same thing.

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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby amz » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 12:26

4N wrote:
There are millions of Algerians in France (although I am not sure how many of them consider themselves Algerians)


Don't get confused by the irrelevant discussion about Algerian history on the T3 thread. There are millions of Algerian Algerians in France, not pieds-noirs or anything else. People like Zidane, Benzema etc. Surely you are smart enough to look at the Algerian Dream XV and read the names and understand. Or to look at the Algerian soccer team and see the percentage born in France. Same thing.


Surely you are smart enough to know a test team is much more than a first XV. I mean look at Canadians when they miss 2-3 players.

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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby 4N » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 12:29

There are others. I didn't compile the original team as I told you already, but will talk to Beeman and see if we can get a full 23 of pro players. Which is a lot better than even most T2 teams.

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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby Canalina » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 13:04

The version of Tunisia's federation is quite different from the one by zimbabwese federation

https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5BA8E9B8
https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5BA153B7
https://scontent-mxp1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/ ... e=5BE7A090

It has to be said that the Hotel Aladino (the one refused by Zimbabwe's players) has just three votes on TripAdvisor: two mediocre and one horrible https://www.tripadvisor.fr/Hotel_Review ... ml#REVIEWS

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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby amz » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 13:08

Don't bother, there's a French Wiki page which list a lot of players eligible for Algeria, some of them of decent level. I stumbled upon it before t2 blog article when I noticed Mohamed Belguidoum in Universitatea Cluj's team.

https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89qui ... _%C3%A0_XV

It is fully French. Let's see if they can actually qualify for a place in RWCQ but my bet is they can't for 2023. At a quick look don't look bad but you need logistics, admin, coaching and all kind of backroom work that makes a team good, showing up constantly at matches and not only simple lists of players :)

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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby victorsra » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 14:15

Sure i saw 3 matches from Rugby Americas Championship 2018: against Canada, USA and Argentina, btw you struggled to beat Chile then.
And i saw the Argentina XV game from sudamerica or however you call it now.

The USA you fought is a different USA that beat Scotland. I'll bet there are tops 6 players that played both matches as starters.

Improved yes. About something changing, be 3rd last next Rugby Americas and I'll jump on the bandwagon.


Pay attention in what I am discussing, Amz said "I've seen Brazil squad last year in Bucharest, some players were at risk on the field and looked totally unfit and in danger". I say THIS changed, this is a untrue claim for the 2018 team. Brazil is a much fitter team now, as the team trains everyday in a high performance academy. Fit, not big. I am not discussing the quality of our forwards or if we are strong enough to beat full-strenght T2s in every aspect.

But you are thinking about T2s changing. Not T3s changing. For a T3 to beat an Argentine team with some Jaguares players it is not something for a unfit team that doesn't "change". A bit bizarre.
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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby Sick » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 15:14

victorsra wrote:
Pay attention in what I am discussing, Amz said "I've seen Brazil squad last year in Bucharest, some players were at risk on the field and looked totally unfit and in danger". I say THIS changed, this is a untrue claim for the 2018 team. Brazil is a much fitter team now, as the team trains everyday in a high performance academy. Fit, not big. I am not discussing the quality of our forwards or if we are strong enough to beat full-strenght T2s in every aspect.

But you are thinking about T2s changing. Not T3s changing. For a T3 to beat an Argentine team with some Jaguares players it is not something for a unfit team that doesn't "change". A bit bizarre.


Bizzare yes. Improved yes. Changed no. Depends a lot how good that Argentine team with some Jaguares was. The way I saw them they would have struggled against Chile. They would have beat them, but not by very much.

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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby victorsra » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 15:56

Chile's match was the first one of the whole season, as December-January is the offseason in South America. The end of this improvement curve is the game against Argentina at the South Amercan Championship. Brazil for the first time could play a whole match leveled with the UAR's team. Also, in the ARC, we made our best ever 40 minutes against Uruguay, when Brazil dominated the Teros, letting the victory escape in the end. Every year one step is being done. That's is changing constantly. Every year you see a new "first" for the Tupis. There are many problems, starting with our club rugby and the lack of junior rugby, that impacts in the depth of the squad. But the national team itself is in constant evolution. Look at where Brazil was less than a decade ago. If this is not changing, no national team in the world is really changing.

If it "improves" it "changes" for better. We'll enter in a conceptual discussion. If you mean "structural" transformation, than the change is that now we have a professional squad. There is no "unfit team" in "dangerous situation". But whole "structural" changes - in the whole game inside the country - are still far from happening. But this is not Brazil's privilege in T2-T3s world.
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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby Ser Podrick of Payne » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 17:34

vino_93 wrote:
Ser Podrick of Payne wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:Also technically most parts of Algeria were not a country but a part of France itself since 1848 until 1962. So most grandparents would have been born in France, even if on African soil. That's an interesting eligbility discussion.

"Les Pieds-Noir"

And pieds-noirs sons and grandsons, as me, aren't eligible for Algeria, as parents never get Algerians papers. Moreover, on docs, they aren't born abroad, but in an old French "département". F.e. my father is born in current Annaba, which was in this time Bône - and it is Bône, "département" 99, as birthplace, not Annaba, Algeria.

That's what I thought was being raised as possibly eligible (French but not Maghrebis born in current Algeria) , but anyway it's good to have the clarification.

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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby RugbyLiebe » Wed, 04 Jul 2018, 22:06

vino_93 wrote:
The local arabs on fact weren't fully French. They had nationality, but not citizenship until 1947. Then they obtained it, but it was so slow that only a few thousands were 100% citizens.
And in 1962, when Algeria became independant, the local arabs lost their French nationality and became Algerians - except harkis.

Most of the current players have great parents who got Algerians nationality nowadays.
And pieds-noirs sons and grandsons, as me, aren't eligible for Algeria, as parents never get Algerians papers. Moreover, on docs, they aren't born abroad, but in an old French "département". F.e. my father is born in current Annaba, which was in this time Bône - and it is Bône, "département" 99, as birthplace, not Annaba, Algeria.


Thanks for the really interesting insights. Thing is rugby eligbility gives a f... about nationalities. What happens if a birth certificate states Departement 99, even as a born Arab and then you move to the "new" after-1962 France and now your grandchildren want to play for Algeria?

My thoughts would be: its up to them, but is that really what World Rugby thinks? We had this discussion before with Czech Germans etc. but there are so many different stories behind it, I think there needs to be a clarification.
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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby Canalina » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 05:18

Triple duel in Nairobi: for the Elgon Cup, the Africa Cup, the World Cup qualification.
I think a kenyan victory would cut all the teams apart Nam and Ken out of the qualifying

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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby vino_93 » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 06:24

RugbyLiebe wrote:
vino_93 wrote:
The local arabs on fact weren't fully French. They had nationality, but not citizenship until 1947. Then they obtained it, but it was so slow that only a few thousands were 100% citizens.
And in 1962, when Algeria became independant, the local arabs lost their French nationality and became Algerians - except harkis.

Most of the current players have great parents who got Algerians nationality nowadays.
And pieds-noirs sons and grandsons, as me, aren't eligible for Algeria, as parents never get Algerians papers. Moreover, on docs, they aren't born abroad, but in an old French "département". F.e. my father is born in current Annaba, which was in this time Bône - and it is Bône, "département" 99, as birthplace, not Annaba, Algeria.


Thanks for the really interesting insights. Thing is rugby eligbility gives a f... about nationalities. What happens if a birth certificate states Departement 99, even as a born Arab and then you move to the "new" after-1962 France and now your grandchildren want to play for Algeria?

My thoughts would be: its up to them, but is that really what World Rugby thinks? We had this discussion before with Czech Germans etc. but there are so many different stories behind it, I think there needs to be a clarification.

Hard to say. But to be honest, arabs who move to France right in 1962 are "harkis". They are still consider as traitors in Algeria, and live in community in France (without many recognition too). So I guess none of them would want to play for Algeria.

And for those who stayed and acquired new nationality, then moved, I guess they had official Algerians docs, so birth in Algeria not France.

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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby rey200 » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 07:30

well actually there must have been some distinction between Arabs/Muslims and the Pieds-Noirs... afaik the "indigenous" population were second class citizens.
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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby amz » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 07:42

This is a very interesting legal discussion actually. I don't think anybody thought at this situation and border change when Reg 8 was drafted however in the explanatory guidelines we find the following text:

The rationale/philosophy of Regulation 8 is to ensure that Players
selected to represent either the senior and next senior fifteen-a-side
National Representative Teams of a Union or a Union’s senior National
Representative Sevens Team have a genuine, close, credible and
established national link with the country of the Union for which they have
been selected.


Now independent Algeria did not existed as a separate country until 1962 and the event a player with parents/grandparents born in French Algeria will want to play for them then I think a ruling from WR should clarify this issue. IMHO, even if Algeria did not exist at that time, by a WR ruling it can be determined that a grandparent/parent born on now days Algerian territory can justify eligibility.

There's no reason to allow likes of Shields to play for England on a very loose connection with the country and not to ethnic Algerians born and raised in France only because of a particularity of French colonies organization and it would be in the spirit of regulation since is almost no emphasis on passport/citizenship when it comes to eligibility with the exception of the Olympic loophole.

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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby rey200 » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 09:53

amz wrote:This is a very interesting legal discussion actually. I don't think anybody thought at this situation and border change when Reg 8 was drafted however in the explanatory guidelines we find the following text:

The rationale/philosophy of Regulation 8 is to ensure that Players
selected to represent either the senior and next senior fifteen-a-side
National Representative Teams of a Union or a Union’s senior National
Representative Sevens Team have a genuine, close, credible and
established national link with the country of the Union for which they have
been selected.


Now independent Algeria did not existed as a separate country until 1962 and the event a player with parents/grandparents born in French Algeria will want to play for them then I think a ruling from WR should clarify this issue. IMHO, even if Algeria did not exist at that time, by a WR ruling it can be determined that a grandparent/parent born on now days Algerian territory can justify eligibility.

There's no reason to allow likes of Shields to play for England on a very loose connection with the country and not to ethnic Algerians born and raised in France only because of a particularity of French colonies organization and it would be in the spirit of regulation since is almost no emphasis on passport/citizenship when it comes to eligibility with the exception of the Olympic loophole.



I agree. It's the same thing with say Slovakia. Prior to 1993 there was no such country. And the legal successor of the CSFR is the Czech Republic, so it could/should be treated in a similar way.
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Re: 2018 African Gold Cup

Postby amz » Thu, 05 Jul 2018, 09:59

rey200 wrote:I agree. It's the same thing with say Slovakia. Prior to 1993 there was no such country. And the legal successor of the CSFR is the Czech Republic, so it could/should be treated in a similar way.


I beg to differ, there was Slovakia before 1993 namely 1918, 1938 (9?) and 1968, the only issue was it wasn't independent but a country nevertheless. But I agree with you in everything else, if let's say an English player have a parent born in Kosice, he should be eligible for Slovakia.

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