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Canadian rugby

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Tue, 30 Jan 2018, 13:29

snapper37 wrote:
ruckovercdn wrote:I think we have a couple problems. First and formost the selections seem to be morr based on loyalty then form.

Secondly we arent developing play makers, i really blame clubs for that. The drive to import 9 and 10 needs to stop.



My question is where are the up coming players. Mack is 30ish McRorie is 30ish so where are the upcoming 9's???? 10 years of a U20 program and not one scrum half is putting their hand up. This can be said for multiple positions like hooker (Barkwell is well post it)


The scouting and talent identification is abysmal. Interesting enough, a guy I know named Cam Polson, recently signed with the Seattle Seawolves. He played for BC this past year but I don't think he has ever been on Rugby Canada's radar. It's funny because he is an absolute beast at 6'5 265lbs and plays second row. It's probably because he had a full time job (he is a firefighter) and didn't feel like working for mcdonalds coupons and taxi chits in Langford.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 30 Jan 2018, 20:23

So...why wasn't Nakai Penny called up? Dude is a beast...wish I had his hair.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Thu, 01 Feb 2018, 15:57

I don't think anyone really knows why Canada makes the roster decisions it does. There definitely is a pecking order though and they rarely deviate from it. If someone has been involved before they almost certainly get picked again. You pretty much have to go CRC then NSMT. If you dominate at a club it literally counts for nothing. The official rationale is probably continuity. If they are paying guys to train in Langford I suppose it would look stupid to not select them over some guy at UBC.

Not that I agree with this approach, but that's likely the reasoning. We have very narrow pathways to making the NSMT which is a big reason why we stink.

We have been going with the "vets" and they aren't getting it done. Once the qualifiers are over it's time to say goodbye to Barkwill, Parfrey, Blevins, Buydens and roll the dice on some younger players. We can't do much worse.

I think other players lack polish, but physically the above guys just can't compete at test rugby.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Thu, 01 Feb 2018, 17:35

Canadian_Rugger wrote:
snapper37 wrote:
ruckovercdn wrote:I think we have a couple problems. First and formost the selections seem to be morr based on loyalty then form.

Secondly we arent developing play makers, i really blame clubs for that. The drive to import 9 and 10 needs to stop.



My question is where are the up coming players. Mack is 30ish McRorie is 30ish so where are the upcoming 9's???? 10 years of a U20 program and not one scrum half is putting their hand up. This can be said for multiple positions like hooker (Barkwell is well post it)


The scouting and talent identification is abysmal. Interesting enough, a guy I know named Cam Polson, recently signed with the Seattle Seawolves. He played for BC this past year but I don't think he has ever been on Rugby Canada's radar. It's funny because he is an absolute beast at 6'5 265lbs and plays second row. It's probably because he had a full time job (he is a firefighter) and didn't feel like working for mcdonalds coupons and taxi chits in Langford.



100% RC has no clue how to deal with the guys that have a life but are studs. Lots of players like this out there

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Thu, 01 Feb 2018, 17:45

marvinparsons wrote:I don't think anyone really knows why Canada makes the roster decisions it does. There definitely is a pecking order though and they rarely deviate from it. If someone has been involved before they almost certainly get picked again. You pretty much have to go CRC then NSMT. If you dominate at a club it literally counts for nothing. The official rationale is probably continuity. If they are paying guys to train in Langford I suppose it would look stupid to not select them over some guy at UBC.

Not that I agree with this approach, but that's likely the reasoning. We have very narrow pathways to making the NSMT which is a big reason why we stink.

We have been going with the "vets" and they aren't getting it done. Once the qualifiers are over it's time to say goodbye to Barkwill, Parfrey, Blevins, Buydens and roll the dice on some younger players. We can't do much worse.

I think other players lack polish, but physically the above guys just can't compete at test rugby.



There isnt a reason why players that are studs with a life can't be on the RC radar. Why not have them train and answer to a local strength and fitness (RC approved) person in their area of their local club?

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Fri, 02 Feb 2018, 00:54

Completely agree. Have two regional centers, at a minimum, and then appoint reps for other provinces.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby cien_almas » Fri, 02 Feb 2018, 04:48

marvinparsons wrote:I don't think anyone really knows why Canada makes the roster decisions it does. There definitely is a pecking order though and they rarely deviate from it. If someone has been involved before they almost certainly get picked again. You pretty much have to go CRC then NSMT. If you dominate at a club it literally counts for nothing. The official rationale is probably continuity. If they are paying guys to train in Langford I suppose it would look stupid to not select them over some guy at UBC.

Not that I agree with this approach, but that's likely the reasoning. We have very narrow pathways to making the NSMT which is a big reason why we stink.

We have been going with the "vets" and they aren't getting it done. Once the qualifiers are over it's time to say goodbye to Barkwill, Parfrey, Blevins, Buydens and roll the dice on some younger players. We can't do much worse.

I think other players lack polish, but physically the above guys just can't compete at test rugby.


Yeah, I feel like this is the biggest problem. I mean, RC has way more problems than just this, but it's the most obvious.

For example - Blevins was shown up at the club level in Alberta multiple times this year (in his defense, he fought back and played well in later games). Parfrey looked out of place at the CRC level. New coach comes in, no questions asked, they are still part of the program. And the problem goes down to the next level as well - most CRC teams won't look at players outside of their little fiefdom, too - so if you're in the wrong club you won't even get a look. The whole culture and pathways need to be blown up and start over.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Used2BwithIt » Sat, 03 Feb 2018, 22:27

ruckovercdn wrote:Completely agree. Have two regional centers, at a minimum, and then appoint reps for other provinces.


Isn't that what the provincial teams are supposed to be? Is it too convenient a correlation that we started going down hill when the Super League folded?

I don't know why it folded, but regardless, I still fully believe the quality and level of competition isn't good enough at the teenage level and even the decent players / physical freaks aren't being challenged enough. When they get to the next level, they're simply not good enough. I don't believe you can take a good club player and turn him into a world class international once he's become an adult, unless the club level is already to the standard that one would see, say, in Argentina.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 02:02

From facebook.
Rugby Canada statement regarding our Men's Program:

We are deeply disappointed to be in this position of having not qualified as Americas 2 for the 2019 Men’s Rugby World Cup. We appreciate that the Canadian rugby community is dismayed at this result. This is not acceptable for Canadian Rugby.

The entire organization & our Men’s Fifteens program will finalize a robust schedule & plan to ensure the best preparation for a successful competition and qualification through the 2019 Men’s Rugby World Cup repechage tournament in November, 2018.

The failure to qualify as Americas 2 for the 2019 Men’s Rugby World Cup has significant financial challenges for Rugby Canada with a loss of key 2019 Men’s Rugby World Cup planning and preparation funding and missed commercial opportunities in the form of a marquee international match planned for November. The organization will be reviewing these implications, ensuring prioritization is placed on the Men’s 15s program’s preparation for the Men’s Rugby World Cup repechage tournament this November.

Building on the extensive Men’s 15s program review that was completed in July 2017, Rugby Canada continues to undertake a significant change in strategic direction with a focus on building a long-term plan that develops our current and aspiring high performance Canadian rugby players to be competitive at the International level. In addition to the new leadership that has been brought into the Men’s 15s program, Rugby Canada will continue to bring experienced high performance leaders to the organization who will work with our existing development programs at the Club and Provincial levels, while embracing new performance program opportunities for our current and future domestic players.

Rugby Canada is keenly focused and dedicated on returning the Men’s 15s program to being the leading Tier 2 nation in World Rugby.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Armchair Fan » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 02:03

If I were Canadian that amount of corporate bullshit at this moment would make me go nuts.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 02:07

The issue is they are so adamant at being the leading Tier 2 nation when they should be trying to be a Tier 1. It's a ridiculous mindset. And besides they haven't been the leading Tier 2 nation in 30 years. It's almost as if they a stuck in the past lapping up the glory of the early 90's. Newsflash, that one World Cup quarterfinal where they really challenged the All Blacks doesn't mean shit anymore.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 04:18

We are 7-35-1 since 2014. The reality is that we just flat out stink at men's rugby. Sevens we didn't even qualify for the Olympics. You are what your record says you are: terrible.

The best wins we have over that span are Georgia, then Uruguay, then Spain, with losses to Brazil, Romania and Uruguay, among many others.

So basically two T2 wins in 4 years of rugby and 43 games. We are most certainly out of the T2 conversation and into the next tier of Russia, Spain, I'm not sure who else. The USA and Uruguay have moved forward while Canada has moved backwards.

Rugby Canada needs a comprehensive review not of Rugby Canada, but Rugby IN Canada.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Was_a_Kat » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 04:42

thatrugbyguy wrote:The issue is they are so adamant at being the leading Tier 2 nation when they should be trying to be a Tier 1. It's a ridiculous mindset. And besides they haven't been the leading Tier 2 nation in 30 years. It's almost as if they a stuck in the past lapping up the glory of the early 90's. Newsflash, that one World Cup quarterfinal where they really challenged the All Blacks doesn't mean shit anymore.


But the Chair, Powers, seems to love hanging with the “lads” like Rees and Charron and talking about the glory days. The buzzword today seems to be “gutted”. It’s a hollow phrase. I respect both men as players but their position as paid hangers-on, to me, epitomizes everything that is wrong.

On the men’s 15s side, they need to get more young players developing. Sending national teams to age grade competitions seems wasteful. Cast the net wider and expose more players to meaningful club/regional/provincial competition. Rugby in Canada has always had late bloomers. Keep players attached. Picking 2-3 flyhalves at the age of 19 isn’t working. The pool at that age should be 15 players at least. All on the radar, all being watched and coached.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby kearnc25 » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 05:35

That statement is infuriating bullshit. I find the use of the word dismayed hysterical has he not watched Canada try to play rugby the last few years.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 06:10

Canada fails at after 30 minutes every day game. This goes back years, look at the game against Romania in 2015. Simple skills start to fall apart, decision-making goes to shit, ect ect. Fitness, and especially match fitness, needs to be a priority. Playing CDI isnt cutting it, and not playing for 6 months before a test is frankly unacceptable.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 08:44

There’s hasn’t been this big of a fall from grace in rugby since Romania collapsed in the late 80’s. The problem now for Canada is that the other teams in the Repechage, whether it’s Spain, Russia, Zimbabwe, whoever, are going to smell blood in the water. At this stage they are vulnerable and the other teams know it.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby mb.rugger89 » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 15:15

Did you guys read the comments on the post? A ridiculous amount of people want the board to step down. Which is understandable. The one part that really bothered me in their measage, besides the tier 2 goal, was how they acted as if they have been workin on improving the XVs game. Which by lack of games is complete garbage!

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby grande » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 15:19

If you're Tim Powers & Allen Vansen, how do you look at the results of the past five years, of which you've been heavily involved, and say "yes, I should stay on. I'm the man to lead us forward."

Failure after abject failure, and the administrators seem to still think "stay the course" is the right answer. Sure, they're saying they're going to "review the program" or whatever, but they said the same thing after they went winless at the 2015RWC. They said the same thing after failing to qualify vs the USA. They said the same thing after getting a single win in 2017.

Heads must roll at the administrative level. Anything less signals that the administrators are fine with the current trajectory of the program.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 16:04

It's clear massive changes are needed the way Rugby is governed and administered in ths country. The focus on Sevens has killed any momentum the National team had built after the 2011 world cup. It's taken players like John Moonlight, Adam Zaruba, Nathan Hirayama, Conor Trainor, Phil Mack, Harry Jones, etc. Who could have had big 15's careers and made them specialized sevens players.

I watched John Moonlight play in the 2013 Pacific Nations Cup and he was a legit threat all over the field and a player who I thought would surely be playing in Europe soon. Not to be as he was persuaded to pursue a Sevens career, ditto for Hirayama, Trainor and Mack.

Sevens is a money loser and I see no way to monetize the sport. It is reliant on government handouts and is simply a way to market the World Rugby Brand. It isn't even suitable for TV with teams only playing 15 min games. The idea that Rugby Canada makes any money off the Vancouver Sevens is equally preposterous, all they do is recycle other peoples money that's been given to them.
Last edited by Canadian_Rugger on Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 16:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 16:06

Youre aware Trainor is playing in France right?

I think snapper actually hit the nail on the head a page or so ago when he asked where out next stars are. Whos stepping up into DTH or Phil Macks boots? We srent going to be able to compete with increasingly professional sides with an aging team.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 16:11

ruckovercdn wrote:Youre aware Trainor is playing in France right?

I think snapper actually hit the nail on the head a page or so ago when he asked where out next stars are. Whos stepping up into DTH or Phil Macks boots? We srent going to be able to compete with increasingly professional sides with an aging team.


Yep, however, he wasted 5 years playing Sevens when he could of been playing in the Top14. I remember reading that he opted out of a contract offer from Castres after the 2011 WC in order to pursue Sevens.

I don't see any DTHs or Hasslers coming through. The more difficult situation is I see no Jamie Cudmores or Jebb Sinclairs.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 18:27

Canadian_Rugger wrote:
ruckovercdn wrote:Youre aware Trainor is playing in France right?

I think snapper actually hit the nail on the head a page or so ago when he asked where out next stars are. Whos stepping up into DTH or Phil Macks boots? We srent going to be able to compete with increasingly professional sides with an aging team.


Yep, however, he wasted 5 years playing Sevens when he could of been playing in the Top14. I remember reading that he opted out of a contract offer from Castres after the 2011 WC in order to pursue Sevens.

I don't see any DTHs or Hasslers coming through. The more difficult situation is I see no Jamie Cudmores or Jebb Sinclairs.


Oh absolutely, we really lack that bite in our pack that we had in 2011. To me its not even the super star quality players, we dont even have a 9 coming uo to push McRorie.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Used2BwithIt » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 18:59

Was_a_Kat wrote:
thatrugbyguy wrote:The issue is they are so adamant at being the leading Tier 2 nation when they should be trying to be a Tier 1. It's a ridiculous mindset. And besides they haven't been the leading Tier 2 nation in 30 years. It's almost as if they a stuck in the past lapping up the glory of the early 90's. Newsflash, that one World Cup quarterfinal where they really challenged the All Blacks doesn't mean shit anymore.


But the Chair, Powers, seems to love hanging with the “lads” like Rees and Charron and talking about the glory days. The buzzword today seems to be “gutted”. It’s a hollow phrase. I respect both men as players but their position as paid hangers-on, to me, epitomizes everything that is wrong.

On the men’s 15s side, they need to get more young players developing. Sending national teams to age grade competitions seems wasteful. Cast the net wider and expose more players to meaningful club/regional/provincial competition. Rugby in Canada has always had late bloomers. Keep players attached. Picking 2-3 flyhalves at the age of 19 isn’t working. The pool at that age should be 15 players at least. All on the radar, all being watched and coached.


Amen! (I had to check to make sure I didn't write that. :) ) With our size, the costs involved put off so many potential players. I don't think they'll ever do it, but I'd rather not see any more national tournaments and instead see something like sub-regional academies squaring off regularly. But even then, I hear Ontario has scrapped its Hub program. Seemed like cost, again, was the big deterrent. ($45 just to try out! $435 to be part of the program and another $1000-1500 if you're on the travelling team, not to mention money spent just getting to it however often it took place.)

If I were looking at the efficiency of it all, I'd first ask if those players are truly getting exceptional instruction for the money spent / travel, or is this instruction and competition that can be established on a smaller scale? Removing the grand+ to go to a national tournament would be a start, replacing it with a handful of games against other regional rep teams. The notion's already been put into practice with South West, Niagara, Toronto and Eastern Ontario sending teams to the Ontario Summer games for years. Could even add Georgian Bay + Simcoe/Muskoka and Kawarathas+Belleville. At least three times the talent being developed and on show for scouts.

I seem to recall at least one year there being a Simcoe County vs Durham/Kawarthas Region high school all star game - this would be early 00s - that showcased a ridiculous level of talent. I was coaching school and U18 club at the time and some of my boys were in it. I don't think they paid a cent.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby LittleGuy » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 22:40

What on earth has happened to the basic defensive structure? The tackling is wet paper bag levels. Look at the points we've conceded in the last while.

Uruguay - 32
Uruguay - 38
Fiji - 57
Spain - 27
Georgia - 54
Maori - 51
United States - 52
United States - 28
Romania - 25

We have to go back to the Georgia game played in those horrendous conditions in Calgary to see a game where we gave up less than 25 points. These aren't even amazing sides either, like yes the Maori when interested can run up the score, and sometimes Fiji can get moving but giving up over 50 to the States and Georgia?

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Was_a_Kat » Sun, 04 Feb 2018, 23:21

LittleGuy wrote:What on earth has happened to the basic defensive structure? The tackling is wet paper bag levels. Look at the points we've conceded in the last while.

Uruguay - 32
Uruguay - 38
Fiji - 57
Spain - 27
Georgia - 54
Maori - 51
United States - 52
United States - 28
Romania - 25

We have to go back to the Georgia game played in those horrendous conditions in Calgary to see a game where we gave up less than 25 points. These aren't even amazing sides either, like yes the Maori when interested can run up the score, and sometimes Fiji can get moving but giving up over 50 to the States and Georgia?


Part of it is certainly defence, but also an inability to control possession.

We are also weak at poaching, so we lose the possession battle. Having a 9 who likes to kick and take blindside risks doesn’t help.

We also seem to have runners regularly take the ball standing still. Honest question - are they coached that way now?

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