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Canadian rugby

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Coloradoan » Sat, 04 Mar 2017, 16:57

snapper37 wrote:I just read on a thread on here and it made me think, Why does Canada and US battle for a automatic berth to the World Cup? Historically i understand, but times are changing...... It may be time to Turn this ARC into a WC qualifying tourney.


Hasn't always been so. 2003 RWCQs were a 4 team home and away tournament with Chile, Uruguay, USA and Canada. Chile actually won 2 games in that format, including a win over the US. In fact, the only reason the Eagles went to repechage that year was because they were ahead of Chile on points difference in the standings. For some reason in 2007, the format changed and the South American team got walloped by the US, who had previously been walloped by Canada. So that system has been there since. It may be time for a change, though.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby grande » Sat, 04 Mar 2017, 17:15

grande wrote:Canadian_Rugger, you're absolutely right that with so few games is not super accurate.

If you want to take a look, I'm on my phone now, but will send my spreadsheet later.


Spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Sat, 04 Mar 2017, 23:13

So what's the short term solution here. What's something good workable in the next four years.

Then what's something for the next ten ?

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Used2BwithIt » Sun, 05 Mar 2017, 02:31

ruckovercdn wrote:So what's the short term solution here. What's something good workable in the next four years.

Then what's something for the next ten ?


I don't think there is a short-term solution. Hasn't that been the focus for the last decade or so? One coach after another, trying as much as possible to get players together, with styles that may or may not differ but none really being a magic solution for the type of player we tend to produce.

I wrote way too much about what I would like to see for the future, but I don't really think we'll see any progress on those things. They seem to want to put bandaids on the top level without addressing the underlying symptoms at grassroots level. Dropping outside of the top 20 could cause a major rift, but I imagine the powers that be will say things will be different when all the pros are available - which is true, but the next models off the assembly line don't look to be nearly as good.

I'm mid-way through watching the Brazil game and Canada's tries were 1. Well-worked - getting over the gainline for a couple of phases and a back exposing a prop; 2. Opportunist - 9 finding the seam off a lineout. But all the play up until those points looked very pedestrian, going through the phases without any dynamism, and displaying poor skills... without that much pressure, I should add, from a Brazilian defence that isn't that impressive. Brazil's two tries were very good: moving the ball to the wider channel, even blowing a 4v2 to expose forwards in the backline; and outflanking the backs by condensing and freezing them in the midfield with a decoy move and Quade Cooper-esque pass. Canada's 10 is great at kicking the ball away when he could stand to run the boys through the phases a bit more.

These are things that can be worked on, but I used to be skeptical that adults can be taught / learn / put into practice under high pressure subtle nuances that they should be learning and practising through many, many games as youngsters (and there seems to be some academic evidence to support this, with the brain being more receptive up until early 20s). But more recent research I've been doing about perceptual learning has me wondering how often rugby players - in general - are put into learning situations at training where they have to read not just what's going on in front of them, but also assess outside of their forward field of vision. These researchers, in particular, are highly critical of traditional approaches that are more about programming play rather than reading and acting upon what the opposition is actually doing.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby grande » Sun, 05 Mar 2017, 13:55

ruckovercdn wrote:So what's the short term solution here. What's something good workable in the next four years.

Then what's something for the next ten ?


I think Step One should be this: Scrap the CRC, bring back the RCSL.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Sun, 05 Mar 2017, 18:11

grande wrote:
ruckovercdn wrote:So what's the short term solution here. What's something good workable in the next four years.

Then what's something for the next ten ?


I think Step One should be this: Scrap the CRC, bring back the RCSL.



Scrap the CRC and develop a National U23 league

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Sun, 05 Mar 2017, 20:42

Short-term there isn't a ton.

Longer-term scrap the CRC, rebuild club rugby and build reasonable regional representative sides.

I'd suggest a report prepared by an impartial third party on the state of rugby in Canada with suggested improvements. The scope of the last review post RWC was far too narrow and amount to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby nolan » Mon, 06 Mar 2017, 17:58

ruckovercdn wrote:So what's the short term solution here. What's something good workable in the next four years.

Then what's something for the next ten ?


I am afraid it is too late. Rugby Canada made the decision a few years ago for us to be a 7s rugby nation. Anyone who cares about the XV man game in Canada should read "Rugby Canada's Strategic Plan, 2016-2019." Everything in it is geared towards 7s. There is a throwaway line about the NSMT being a top 12 team in 2019, but all of the key aspects in the plan focus on 7s.

We are a 7s rugby nation now. Nobody has to like it, but we have to accept it. Rugby Canada decided it for us.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Tue, 07 Mar 2017, 03:30


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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 07 Mar 2017, 04:09

That's brutal.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Coloradoan » Tue, 07 Mar 2017, 04:11

Speaking of brutal

Image

Image

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Tue, 07 Mar 2017, 04:27

I agree with all of that

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Tue, 07 Mar 2017, 18:02

Coloradoan wrote:Speaking of brutal

Image

Image



Well said and i totally agree. Personally i hope the USA beats us in June as the game needs a overall, if we were to win then the status quo would prevail.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rusty_lock » Tue, 07 Mar 2017, 20:51


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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Used2BwithIt » Tue, 07 Mar 2017, 21:48

ruckovercdn wrote:https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1912597922085508&substory_index=0&id=191813794163938

Whole lot of nothing there


I know you mean the letter, but have a look at the comments section! :)

Lots of people want a greater focus on grassroots. I wouldn't care about the men's team doing so poorly if it wasn't a reflection of the state of the amateur game that isn't producing good players ... and lots of people saying it in the comments: outdated training methods, lack of games, not attracting / retaining athletes, shrinking numbers in the club game, focusing on the 'elites' and not developing communities of players and coaches....

... I realise that'll probably mean pulling money from somewhere, but the status quo isn't working. Time for a sacrifice?

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Tue, 07 Mar 2017, 23:27

Any chance of a revolt happening?

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Wed, 08 Mar 2017, 02:07

Used2BwithIt wrote:
ruckovercdn wrote:https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=1912597922085508&substory_index=0&id=191813794163938

Whole lot of nothing there


I know you mean the letter, but have a look at the comments section! :)

Lots of people want a greater focus on grassroots. I wouldn't care about the men's team doing so poorly if it wasn't a reflection of the state of the amateur game that isn't producing good players ... and lots of people saying it in the comments: outdated training methods, lack of games, not attracting / retaining athletes, shrinking numbers in the club game, focusing on the 'elites' and not developing communities of players and coaches....

... I realise that'll probably mean pulling money from somewhere, but the status quo isn't working. Time for a sacrifice?


The problem is rugby Canada has already forced itself into a tough spot for no dammed reason: 8 million on Langford when UVic has a 5000 seater stadium down the road is the best example. All that money could have down a world of good at club or regional level.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Wed, 08 Mar 2017, 02:26

All the comments from those involved in rugby cite the problem: the grassroots has been sucked dry. It's dying due to neglect. When you kill the base, soon enough the top will begin to wilt and that's what we are witnessing. No acknowledgement of this by Rugby Canada.

I still don't understand this training center in Langford. What do they do there? Work out? Watch game tape of losses on repeat? Who can afford to relocate there and to not even play rugby while there? I picture Nick Blevins and Gordon McRorie working out and passing the ball to each other in a big empty dome.

Meanwhile team that produce these players sometimes can't afford basics like balls, scrum machines, paid coaching or a bus to make that 7 hour road game. The clubs exist in practically third-world conditions and it isn't their fault. They've been bled dry. Take that 8 million and pay for some better coaching nationwide, subsidize leagues that actually play games and instill some pride in Canadian rugby.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Wed, 08 Mar 2017, 02:39

All these questions about how to improve grass roots rugby when it's really really fucking simple: cut down the insurance costs, make it cheaper to play and more players will play. More players playing means clubs get more due, which improves the conditions at the clubs. That means better coaching, which means better fitness. Importantly both of those things start earlier. The intangible of all this is that the clubs become more attractive options for cross over athletes.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Wed, 08 Mar 2017, 03:24

The increased cost of playing has taken a toll. Eastern Ontario adult numbers are down by 25% or so over the past 10 years. It's nearly $500/season and that's only for 10-15 games. Add in all the travel and potential injuries and it is not a cheap sport. Anybody on the fence is not bothering. I used to try to convince people to play, but now with the cost and the frankly embarrassing state of the leagues, I don't bother.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Used2BwithIt » Wed, 08 Mar 2017, 06:05

marvinparsons wrote:The increased cost of playing has taken a toll. Eastern Ontario adult numbers are down by 25% or so over the past 10 years. It's nearly $500/season and that's only for 10-15 games. Add in all the travel and potential injuries and it is not a cheap sport. Anybody on the fence is not bothering. I used to try to convince people to play, but now with the cost and the frankly embarrassing state of the leagues, I don't bother.


I've been running into the same thing. No shortage of keen people who want to get back into the game, or crossover people who want to give it a try, but as soon as they hear the costs involved...

As for insurance... I'm fairly certain that where I've coached overseas, each club plays one blanket insurance fee for the season regardless of how many members there are. Surely the same goes for schools here in Canada, which has rugby, football and things like wrestling and swimming that have a certain amount of risk involved beyond other non-contact team sports. How do they manage when RC couldn't seem to get a good rate when they had to find a new policy?

It's no wonder things like the Sport Social Club franchises are doing well. Of course they don't do contact sports, but $80-$120 a season for as many games and you start to think that baseball, basketball, soccer, volleyball are better options if you're not a die-hard rugby nut and are just looking to play a sport and be social.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 08 Mar 2017, 15:39

Down here the CIPP Fee per player has been flat for a couple of years at $80. Half that goes to the provincial/state union. In addition to most clubs hold a $200 dues fee every season, with the better clubs that gets you a training shirt and game socks in addition to covering all of the post match hosted socials and the Union fee the club has to pay.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Wed, 08 Mar 2017, 19:09

Up here Rugby Canada charges each player 180. Plus club dues.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Buffalo » Wed, 08 Mar 2017, 20:10

ruckovercdn wrote:Up here Rugby Canada charges each player 180. Plus club dues.


Rugby Canada charges a bit over $100 while Rugby Alberta charges $40 in insurance/liability fees or whatever they are. The ERU is also talking about implementing a $5-$10 charge per player from 2018 onward. Then there's additional processing fees and taxes after all that. Club dues are pretty much mandatory though and I approve of them. Gotta pay for the continued use and maintenance of clubhouses and pitches somehow. If we as players want cheaper club dues then we gotta do more work in helping bring in sponsors for our clubs to offset the costs.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Wed, 08 Mar 2017, 20:59

As far as your investment in Langford is concerned, I don't really find that being problem unless you care about it's actual location not being central to most of Canada's population, which is a problem. You need a high performance center where you can have athletes live in residence. Of course not full time unless you're running every event on the HSBC Seven's World Series. Because then those ruggers are in camp for about 8 months of the year.

It's a training camp location, it also has a stadium which you folks sold out for both matches. USAR doesn't have the same set up but we have the Elite Athlete Training Center in Chula Vista (USOC decided to sell it to the city) under contract for 7s residence program and international camp, there is also the Colorado Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs, and the Infinity Park facility for Glendale, CO. So that investment for you guys isn't a bad thing.

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