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Canadian rugby

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Mon, 17 Jul 2017, 23:29

Coloradoan wrote:
snapper37 wrote:What we need is more kids playing longer and the elites ones longer against their peer group. Canada needs a national U23 league set up and run just as the Junior Football league is.


There is nothing magical about playing against your peer group from a development standpoint. Frankly, talented youngsters have more to learn from playing with and against crafty older players than their peers. The only reason to keep elite younger players playing against their age group is if they are too frail physically for senior rugby. But very few of those players will end up physically developing into international caliber players.


If a 22 year old can't cut it in men's club rugby they are terrible players. The standard is not high. I played men's at 17 and it didn't cause any harm. I was a very shit player then and when i finished up at 33 I was a marginally less shit player.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Tue, 18 Jul 2017, 16:55

marvinparsons wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:
snapper37 wrote:What we need is more kids playing longer and the elites ones longer against their peer group. Canada needs a national U23 league set up and run just as the Junior Football league is.


There is nothing magical about playing against your peer group from a development standpoint. Frankly, talented youngsters have more to learn from playing with and against crafty older players than their peers. The only reason to keep elite younger players playing against their age group is if they are too frail physically for senior rugby. But very few of those players will end up physically developing into international caliber players.


If a 22 year old can't cut it in men's club rugby they are terrible players. The standard is not high. I played men's at 17 and it didn't cause any harm. I was a very shit player then and when i finished up at 33 I was a marginally less shit player.



I also played for a provincial champ premiere team at 19, and continued off and on through the years and i'm still playing at 50... I wasn't a talented player, i was stubborn and uncompermising. But you must agree that the you and I are not the norm, most kids at that age and maturity don't do well playing against seasoned vets who just want to go out and intimidate them. A couple things have changed since I was a kid in my town anyways.
1.. the high school system league isn't working for public schools
2. less games played through the schools years (junior and senior played at same time)
3. no to little organized junior leagues
4. most U23 players have very little games time experience (my son played for a local 1st div team this year and then told me tafter his first game that that was his 16 full or part game ever, That is not enough time developing players the tools to last playing against men who grow up in a better system)

5. A U23 league is the right thing to do. Grow the game and steal athletes from other sports. . ,

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby sk 88 » Tue, 18 Jul 2017, 17:09

Coloradoan wrote:
snapper37 wrote:What we need is more kids playing longer and the elites ones longer against their peer group. Canada needs a national U23 league set up and run just as the Junior Football league is.


There is nothing magical about playing against your peer group from a development standpoint. Frankly, talented youngsters have more to learn from playing with and against crafty older players than their peers. The only reason to keep elite younger players playing against their age group is if they are too frail physically for senior rugby. But very few of those players will end up physically developing into international caliber players.


The only nation that does an U-23 league is France, who are also struggling to produce good players. U-20 at most for me, some players need time to develop but you can't base a system around those few players.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Coloradoan » Tue, 18 Jul 2017, 18:15

snapper37 wrote:
marvinparsons wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:
snapper37 wrote:What we need is more kids playing longer and the elites ones longer against their peer group. Canada needs a national U23 league set up and run just as the Junior Football league is.


There is nothing magical about playing against your peer group from a development standpoint. Frankly, talented youngsters have more to learn from playing with and against crafty older players than their peers. The only reason to keep elite younger players playing against their age group is if they are too frail physically for senior rugby. But very few of those players will end up physically developing into international caliber players.


If a 22 year old can't cut it in men's club rugby they are terrible players. The standard is not high. I played men's at 17 and it didn't cause any harm. I was a very shit player then and when i finished up at 33 I was a marginally less shit player.



I also played for a provincial champ premiere team at 19, and continued off and on through the years and i'm still playing at 50... I wasn't a talented player, i was stubborn and uncompermising. But you must agree that the you and I are not the norm, most kids at that age and maturity don't do well playing against seasoned vets who just want to go out and intimidate them. A couple things have changed since I was a kid in my town anyways.
1.. the high school system league isn't working for public schools
2. less games played through the schools years (junior and senior played at same time)
3. no to little organized junior leagues
4. most U23 players have very little games time experience (my son played for a local 1st div team this year and then told me tafter his first game that that was his 16 full or part game ever, That is not enough time developing players the tools to last playing against men who grow up in a better system)

5. A U23 league is the right thing to do. Grow the game and steal athletes from other sports. . ,


We're talking about elite athletes here. If they are too mentally soft at 21 to go up against a 28 year old run of the mill club player, it's extremely unlikely they're going to have the chops to become an international player.

If the argument is that clubs should make an effort to field U23 sides, then I absolutely agree. But at representative level, the returns don't justify the costs of flying all over the country.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby iul » Tue, 18 Jul 2017, 18:59

I "did the math" some time ago for the Romanian 31 man squad that went to the last RWC. Apart from the imports, all of the players had played for the national team by the time they were 22. There are no hidden gems to be had at that age. If they can't cut it even at the club level by that age they are of no value whatsoever for the national team.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby grande » Tue, 18 Jul 2017, 22:18

How does Rugby Canada expect anyone to give a shit about the CRC when they don't even have a list of fixtures on the official site?

http://www.canadianrugbychampionship.co ... gueid=6921

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Tue, 18 Jul 2017, 22:33

grande wrote:How does Rugby Canada expect anyone to give a shit about the CRC when they don't even have a list of fixtures on the official site?

http://www.canadianrugbychampionship.co ... gueid=6921


I played against Matt Heaton 5 years ago and he would have been 19 or so and he was clearly the most athletic guy on the field. All the U20 Canada guys I've known are fully capable of men's club rugby, they are usually the better players. If you can't cut it on the first team, that's why there's seconds. If size is an issue usually position can be modified. As a general rule if your idea for Canadian Rugby requires extensive travel it is a BAD IDEA since there's NO MONEY TO PAY FOR IT.

That should be the starting premise of any discussion.

I honestly don't even have a clue if the CRC is even in existence and I post on an extremely obscure Canadian Rugby message board regularly and half my friends play rugby.

Another nail in the coffin for Rugby Canada.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby thatrugbyguy » Wed, 19 Jul 2017, 03:44

Any chance of a rival union being organised to take over running of the game?

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Was_a_Kat » Wed, 19 Jul 2017, 14:08

I think at one point Vancouver had a U 21 competition. It wasn't for development so much as retention. Elite players can play against grown men. But guys who just want to keep playing with no aspirations of elite rugby may find it intimidating. The biggest problem clubs have is converting juniors into adult players.

Those guys may not turn into national players, but they may become long standing club members and volunteers. When I was in Vancouver many of the guys running the clubs had been 2/3 Div players. Anything that keeps more people playing rugby and helpsmclubs is a positive.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Coloradoan » Wed, 19 Jul 2017, 15:41

Was_a_Kat wrote:I think at one point Vancouver had a U 21 competition. It wasn't for development so much as retention. Elite players can play against grown men. But guys who just want to keep playing with no aspirations of elite rugby may find it intimidating. The biggest problem clubs have is converting juniors into adult players.

Those guys may not turn into national players, but they may become long standing club members and volunteers. When I was in Vancouver many of the guys running the clubs had been 2/3 Div players. Anything that keeps more people playing rugby and helpsmclubs is a positive.


Totally agree with that. There also doesn't necessarily have to be a U21 competition. Clubs could field U21 or U23 sides and play against universities without needing a critical mass for its own league. This is what has started happening in the US (see Pleasanton Jesters U23 in California and now Glendale U20 in Colorado).

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Wed, 19 Jul 2017, 16:59

sk 88 wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:
snapper37 wrote:What we need is more kids playing longer and the elites ones longer against their peer group. Canada needs a national U23 league set up and run just as the Junior Football league is.


There is nothing magical about playing against your peer group from a development standpoint. Frankly, talented youngsters have more to learn from playing with and against crafty older players than their peers. The only reason to keep elite younger players playing against their age group is if they are too frail physically for senior rugby. But very few of those players will end up physically developing into international caliber players.


The only nation that does an U-23 league is France, who are also struggling to produce good players. U-20 at most for me, some players need time to develop but you can't base a system around those few players.



The elite of those players will move on to the better leagues. This give the late bloomers a chance to grow without getting killed every week. I personally don't care what other countries are doing (look at how the Scottish defensive coach worked out) i care what works for Canadians by Canadians. Our youth are coming into mens senior rugby having played very little high school or junior rugby.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Wed, 19 Jul 2017, 17:08

What we could do is to continually do what were doing........That seems to be working.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rusty_lock » Wed, 19 Jul 2017, 20:13

Watching BC v. Prairie CRC U19. Absolutely horrible skills on display. BC dominated but both teams lack basic kicking, catching and passing skills. BC Fullback needed to swing the ball out wide to the RW and stopped turned 180 degrees so he could pass from his dominant hand. All momentum was lost and attack died. This is supposed to be a representative side. Just one example of too many. Very sad!

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Coloradoan » Wed, 19 Jul 2017, 20:49

snapper37 wrote:
sk 88 wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:
snapper37 wrote:What we need is more kids playing longer and the elites ones longer against their peer group. Canada needs a national U23 league set up and run just as the Junior Football league is.


There is nothing magical about playing against your peer group from a development standpoint. Frankly, talented youngsters have more to learn from playing with and against crafty older players than their peers. The only reason to keep elite younger players playing against their age group is if they are too frail physically for senior rugby. But very few of those players will end up physically developing into international caliber players.


The only nation that does an U-23 league is France, who are also struggling to produce good players. U-20 at most for me, some players need time to develop but you can't base a system around those few players.



The elite of those players will move on to the better leagues. This give the late bloomers a chance to grow without getting killed every week. I personally don't care what other countries are doing (look at how the Scottish defensive coach worked out) i care what works for Canadians by Canadians. Our youth are coming into mens senior rugby having played very little high school or junior rugby.


That's not the position you took here initially (and in the past when advocating for a national age grade rep league):

snapper37 wrote:What we need is more kids playing longer and the elites ones longer against their peer group.


Yes, you need kids playing longer for the health of the game overall, but very few of those are going to become elite. Running U23 club sides to play against universities and other u23 club sides would be sufficient and not a drain on Rugby Canada's resources like a national elite age grade competition would.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Wed, 19 Jul 2017, 22:43

Coloradoan wrote:
snapper37 wrote:
sk 88 wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:
snapper37 wrote:What we need is more kids playing longer and the elites ones longer against their peer group. Canada needs a national U23 league set up and run just as the Junior Football league is.


There is nothing magical about playing against your peer group from a development standpoint. Frankly, talented youngsters have more to learn from playing with and against crafty older players than their peers. The only reason to keep elite younger players playing against their age group is if they are too frail physically for senior rugby. But very few of those players will end up physically developing into international caliber players.


The only nation that does an U-23 league is France, who are also struggling to produce good players. U-20 at most for me, some players need time to develop but you can't base a system around those few players.



The elite of those players will move on to the better leagues. This give the late bloomers a chance to grow without getting killed every week. I personally don't care what other countries are doing (look at how the Scottish defensive coach worked out) i care what works for Canadians by Canadians. Our youth are coming into mens senior rugby having played very little high school or junior rugby.


RC doesn't have to a part of this. it can be run by regions

That's not the position you took here initially (and in the past when advocating for a national age grade rep league):

snapper37 wrote:What we need is more kids playing longer and the elites ones longer against their peer group.


Yes, you need kids playing longer for the health of the game overall, but very few of those are going to become elite. Running U23 club sides to play against universities and other u23 club sides would be sufficient and not a drain on Rugby Canada's resources like a national elite age grade competition would.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Thu, 20 Jul 2017, 17:45

snapper37 wrote:
marvinparsons wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:
snapper37 wrote:What we need is more kids playing longer and the elites ones longer against their peer group. Canada needs a national U23 league set up and run just as the Junior Football league is.


There is nothing magical about playing against your peer group from a development standpoint. Frankly, talented youngsters have more to learn from playing with and against crafty older players than their peers. The only reason to keep elite younger players playing against their age group is if they are too frail physically for senior rugby. But very few of those players will end up physically developing into international caliber players.


If a 22 year old can't cut it in men's club rugby they are terrible players. The standard is not high. I played men's at 17 and it didn't cause any harm. I was a very shit player then and when i finished up at 33 I was a marginally less shit player.



I also played for a provincial champ premiere team at 19, and continued off and on through the years and i'm still playing at 50... I wasn't a talented player, i was stubborn and uncompermising. But you must agree that the you and I are not the norm, most kids at that age and maturity don't do well playing against seasoned vets who just want to go out and intimidate them. A couple things have changed since I was a kid in my town anyways.
1.. the high school system league isn't working for public schools
2. less games played through the schools years (junior and senior played at same time)
3. no to little organized junior leagues
4. most U23 players have very little games time experience (my son played for a local 1st div team this year and then told me tafter his first game that that was his 16 full or part game ever, That is not enough time developing players the tools to last playing against men who grow up in a better system)

5. A U23 league is the right thing to do. Grow the game and steal athletes from other sports. . ,



I'd say a better step would be for Rugby Canada to require teams with carded national team players to operate junior programs up to u 21.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Thu, 20 Jul 2017, 18:09

There is nothing magical about playing against your peer group from a development standpoint. Frankly, talented youngsters have more to learn from playing with and against crafty older players than their peers. The only reason to keep elite younger players playing against their age group is if they are too frail physically for senior rugby. But very few of those players will end up physically developing into international caliber players.[/quote]

The only nation that does an U-23 league is France, who are also struggling to produce good players. U-20 at most for me, some players need time to develop but you can't base a system around those few players.[/quote]


The elite of those players will move on to the better leagues. This give the late bloomers a chance to grow without getting killed every week. I personally don't care what other countries are doing (look at how the Scottish defensive coach worked out) i care what works for Canadians by Canadians. Our youth are coming into mens senior rugby having played very little high school or junior rugby.[/quote]

RC doesn't have to a part of this. it can be run by regions

That's not the position you took here initially (and in the past when advocating for a national age grade rep league):

snapper37 wrote:What we need is more kids playing longer and the elites ones longer against their peer group.


Yes, you need kids playing longer for the health of the game overall, but very few of those are going to become elite. Running U23 club sides to play against universities and other u23 club sides would be sufficient and not a drain on Rugby Canada's resources like a national elite age grade competition would.[/quote][/quote]

Ok, if you want to be difficult. maybe the set up should be a club run U23 league, that filters out the best for a national u23 league. Get these kids playing games.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Coloradoan » Thu, 20 Jul 2017, 18:30

snapper37 wrote:Ok, if you want to be difficult. maybe the set up should be a club run U23 league, that filters out the best for a national u23 league. Get these kids playing games.


Club U23 makes sense. It's in the interest of the clubs to have younger players stay in the game and for those who aren't ready for senior club rugby to get game time.

National U23 makes no sense. What is the point of a national U23 league? The best won't be playing U23 club. They'll be playing senior club rugby and getting plenty of match time.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Thu, 20 Jul 2017, 20:56

Coloradoan wrote:
snapper37 wrote:Ok, if you want to be difficult. maybe the set up should be a club run U23 league, that filters out the best for a national u23 league. Get these kids playing games.


Club U23 makes sense. It's in the interest of the clubs to have younger players stay in the game and for those who aren't ready for senior club rugby to get game time.

National U23 makes no sense. What is the point of a national U23 league? The best won't be playing U23 club. They'll be playing senior club rugby and getting plenty of match time.



Run a national comp after the club season, What doesn't make sense is to run a senior CRC, nobody really cares about. The point is more games and more meaningful games to grow the game in a new generation of younger players. I ask what sense is there in running a Junior football league? There are no adult clubs for these football players to play in after their done, yet junior Football is a healthy league,.... How many junior football kids in Canada play any football after their Junior league? .5% if your lucky. lets grab the other 95% of those of those athletes
Last edited by snapper37 on Fri, 21 Jul 2017, 14:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Coloradoan » Thu, 20 Jul 2017, 21:15

snapper37 wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:
snapper37 wrote:Ok, if you want to be difficult. maybe the set up should be a club run U23 league, that filters out the best for a national u23 league. Get these kids playing games.


Club U23 makes sense. It's in the interest of the clubs to have younger players stay in the game and for those who aren't ready for senior club rugby to get game time.

National U23 makes no sense. What is the point of a national U23 league? The best won't be playing U23 club. They'll be playing senior club rugby and getting plenty of match time.



Run a national comp after the club season, What doesn't make sense is to run a senior CRC, nobody really cares about that set up. The point is more games and more meaningful games to grow the game in a new generation of younger players. I ask what sense is there in running a Junior football league? There are no adult clubs for these football players to play in after their done. Yet there is a healthy league,.... How many junior football kids in Canada play any football after their Junior league? .5% if your lucky. lets grab the other 95% of those of those athletes


The talented of the younger generation of players are already playing lots of senior club rugby and in the CRC. Why you would want them to play against inferior competition is beyond me. National competitions in North America are expensive. If this were a country like England where you can get anywhere in a day by car/bus/train, your idea might have merit. In North America and from a union with a shoestring budget, it's asinine. Even more asinine would be doing so by eliminating the senior CRC. A senior CRC actually makes sense. It's the highest quality domestic competition available and it directly pits players in contention for national spots. It also has teams who, longer term, could conceivably be flipped into pro outfits in MLR or another league. That Rugby Canada doesn't do a good job of structuring or promoting the CRC does not mean it lacks merit. A U23 competition would basically end up being run on the same budget, with far lower returns and essentially zero long term commercial upside.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Thu, 20 Jul 2017, 21:51

Running an U23 competition makes no sense. My club, which is currently sitting in the top half of the highest division of Quebec-Eastern Ontario has an average age of 25 in the 1st XV. The best players are already playing premier division club rugby, creating yet another pointless competition for university age players will inhibit growth rather than foster it.

Those who can't cut the mustard at 1st XV can play 2nds or 3rds. I was one of 3 players over the age of 30 involved with 1sts last season. I've opted out of playing this season because quite honestly, I can't cut it anymore at 1sts and don't have the time to dedicate to rugby specific training any longer and can't risk injury due to my work (I'm in the Army).

The concept of creating a League to develop late bloomers is flawed. If you can't cut 1st XV at age 20-21, you probably aren't going to cut it ever.

We need to foster a more competitive club environment, not create more artificial competitions that do nothing to develop the club game. The US, Argentina, Russia, Romania, etc. Are going about this the right way, we are not.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Thu, 20 Jul 2017, 23:05

snapper37 wrote:
Coloradoan wrote:
snapper37 wrote:Ok, if you want to be difficult. maybe the set up should be a club run U23 league, that filters out the best for a national u23 league. Get these kids playing games.


Club U23 makes sense. It's in the interest of the clubs to have younger players stay in the game and for those who aren't ready for senior club rugby to get game time.

National U23 makes no sense. What is the point of a national U23 league? The best won't be playing U23 club. They'll be playing senior club rugby and getting plenty of match time.



Run a national comp after the club season, What doesn't make sense is to run a senior CRC, nobody really cares about that set up. The point is more games and more meaningful games to grow the game in a new generation of younger players. I ask what sense is there in running a Junior football league? There are no adult clubs for these football players to play in after their done. Yet there is a healthy league,.... How many junior football kids in Canada play any football after their Junior league? .5% if your lucky. lets grab the other 95% of those of those athletes


Just because there isn't something in BC doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the rest of the country. Men's Football is a thing in Alberta and Ontario, Manitoba as well. Much like u21 leagues.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby 4N » Mon, 24 Jul 2017, 10:23

Canada's Adam Zaruba trying out with Philadelphia Eagles NFL
http://theprovince.com/sports/football/ ... ith-eagles

A general quote I found interesting:
In the past, a football coach might have turned up their nose at a non-specialist athlete, but coaches in all sports are looking more and more simply for the right mix athleticism and character above all else, Nill pointed out. The skills can be taught, but the physical and mental mostly can’t.

“That’s my philosophy, I recruit genetics,” Nill said. “If you’ve got the genetics and the mindset to compete, I’ll take you any time over a guy who’s a complete freak as a technical player, who has a lack of motivation.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 24 Jul 2017, 11:27

4N wrote:Canada's Adam Zaruba trying out with Philadelphia Eagles NFL
http://theprovince.com/sports/football/ ... ith-eagles

A general quote I found interesting:
In the past, a football coach might have turned up their nose at a non-specialist athlete, but coaches in all sports are looking more and more simply for the right mix athleticism and character above all else, Nill pointed out. The skills can be taught, but the physical and mental mostly can’t.

“That’s my philosophy, I recruit genetics,” Nill said. “If you’ve got the genetics and the mindset to compete, I’ll take you any time over a guy who’s a complete freak as a technical player, who has a lack of motivation.


Tbh I don't. Nill seems to be a coach paid by Zaruba's agent to make him NFL-ready. What else should he say? "Those idiots paid me for coaching this chanceless guy"?
If it came from an NFL-Coach fair enough.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby 4N » Mon, 24 Jul 2017, 13:10

I don't know what you're talking about. It's a general statement on recruiting athletes, the first portion from the article's writer the second from a successful Canadian football coach. :?

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