Tier 2 & 3 Rugby Forum

Canadian rugby

Posts: 1181
Joined: Wed, 25 Feb 2015, 17:54
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Fri, 24 Nov 2017, 22:21

First of all id hardly call every athlete at Univeristy a "silver spooner." Or apply a work ethic to class ratio. My solution for the costs issue though would be a fold of the CRC and using that money to target athletes with scholardhips from RC to attend those schools, that also makes keeping a kid in rugby attractive to parents. Lets face it, RC does not have the money to set up teams across a the country, nor the money to pay for top tier fitness or practice facilities. Universities already have those things, and are spread across the country which means players dont have to move across the country for amateur sport.

Online
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun, 18 May 2014, 13:27
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Fri, 24 Nov 2017, 22:52

ruckovercdn wrote:First of all id hardly call every athlete at Univeristy a "silver spooner." Or apply a work ethic to class ratio. My solution for the costs issue though would be a fold of the CRC and using that money to target athletes with scholardhips from RC to attend those schools, that also makes keeping a kid in rugby attractive to parents. Lets face it, RC does not have the money to set up teams across a the country, nor the money to pay for top tier fitness or practice facilities. Universities already have those things, and are spread across the country which means players dont have to move across the country for amateur sport.


Being able to provide some kind of scholarship program be it full or even half would be quite attractive for many young players I would imagine. How much does it cost RC to run the CRC every year? A quick search suggests that it costs an average of $6500 a year for a domestic student to attend a University in Canada (according to topuniversities.com) so how many full or half scholarships would RC be able to fund by doing away with the CRC and refocusing those funds to the University level of the game?

Posts: 268
Joined: Sun, 06 Dec 2015, 06:42
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Sat, 25 Nov 2017, 16:55

Crap FAT boy Rees is doing the play by play again...MUTING...

Online
Posts: 459
Joined: Thu, 23 Feb 2017, 01:37
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sat, 25 Nov 2017, 18:55

RC doesn't pay for the provincial CRC teams. The Provincial Unions do.

Posts: 39
Joined: Tue, 28 Feb 2017, 03:39
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Used2BwithIt » Sun, 26 Nov 2017, 01:49

Working Class Rugger wrote:
ruckovercdn wrote:First of all id hardly call every athlete at Univeristy a "silver spooner." Or apply a work ethic to class ratio. My solution for the costs issue though would be a fold of the CRC and using that money to target athletes with scholardhips from RC to attend those schools, that also makes keeping a kid in rugby attractive to parents. Lets face it, RC does not have the money to set up teams across a the country, nor the money to pay for top tier fitness or practice facilities. Universities already have those things, and are spread across the country which means players dont have to move across the country for amateur sport.


Being able to provide some kind of scholarship program be it full or even half would be quite attractive for many young players I would imagine. How much does it cost RC to run the CRC every year? A quick search suggests that it costs an average of $6500 a year for a domestic student to attend a University in Canada (according to topuniversities.com) so how many full or half scholarships would RC be able to fund by doing away with the CRC and refocusing those funds to the University level of the game?


Firstly, they'd still have to have the marks to get in - and stay in - their programs. Secondly, too many kids already waste time and money going to university because of sport. I've known too many who've wasted time and money switching programs or schools, and some who didn't even finish... all because someone sweet talked them and sold them a dream when they were in high school.

How about actually recognising and supporting the quality club players rather than give free passes to teenagers who might not be any good at the adult. I'm starting to think we're treating rugby like unpopular Olympic individual sports where they bank everything on those few people who are into it and who look promising, hoping for the best at the four year cycle. Team sports, and especially late development, complex physical sport like rugby just doesn't work that way.

Even where they have dominant, high performing schools (like NZ) and well-run academies (England), relatively few U18s / U20s 'make it' as great pros, let alone internationals.

Posts: 873
Joined: Thu, 15 Dec 2016, 11:18
National Flag:
KenyaKenya

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Neptune » Sun, 26 Nov 2017, 02:19

Hi guys, quick question, can I please have an address where the vikings rugby club train? Thanks

Posts: 226
Joined: Fri, 14 Aug 2015, 13:58
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Mon, 27 Nov 2017, 18:52

Used2BwithIt wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
ruckovercdn wrote:First of all id hardly call every athlete at Univeristy a "silver spooner." Or apply a work ethic to class ratio. My solution for the costs issue though would be a fold of the CRC and using that money to target athletes with scholardhips from RC to attend those schools, that also makes keeping a kid in rugby attractive to parents. Lets face it, RC does not have the money to set up teams across a the country, nor the money to pay for top tier fitness or practice facilities. Universities already have those things, and are spread across the country which means players dont have to move across the country for amateur sport.


Being able to provide some kind of scholarship program be it full or even half would be quite attractive for many young players I would imagine. How much does it cost RC to run the CRC every year? A quick search suggests that it costs an average of $6500 a year for a domestic student to attend a University in Canada (according to topuniversities.com) so how many full or half scholarships would RC be able to fund by doing away with the CRC and refocusing those funds to the University level of the game?


Firstly, they'd still have to have the marks to get in - and stay in - their programs. Secondly, too many kids already waste time and money going to university because of sport. I've known too many who've wasted time and money switching programs or schools, and some who didn't even finish... all because someone sweet talked them and sold them a dream when they were in high school.

How about actually recognising and supporting the quality club players rather than give free passes to teenagers who might not be any good at the adult. I'm starting to think we're treating rugby like unpopular Olympic individual sports where they bank everything on those few people who are into it and who look promising, hoping for the best at the four year cycle. Team sports, and especially late development, complex physical sport like rugby just doesn't work that way.

Even where they have dominant, high performing schools (like NZ) and well-run academies (England), relatively few U18s / U20s 'make it' as great pros, let alone internationals.


I think your take that the unions are approaching rugby players like players competing in individual sports is pretty spot on. Team sports don't produce talent because of time/money spent on a narrow number of players, they produce talent when they have strong leagues, as strong leagues produce good players. All players need to regularly play in as quality a competition as possible. The focus in Canada has been on "elite" players whether it is U20, U18, national team (Langford etc.) or CRC and the results are horrific as players don't have any quality place to ply their trade for 20-30 games a year.

If you look at successful team sports think of the Canadian hockey league (60 teams with excellent coaching, quality opposition!), AHL hockey, USA minor league baseball A-AAA, NCAA football, high school football in the States, the Mitre 10, Currie Cup. All of these create and produce elite athletes because they provide a quality place for players to improve, be challenged, get good coaching and play their sport. 90% of the players will never go on to higher levels of play, but they are integral to forming quality leagues for the other/better players to play in and improve.

If you take the CHL as an example each team has about 1 or 2 guys that will be a regular NHL player. The remaining 17 players are essential though as those 1 or 2 need a place to play quality hockey; also you don't often know which of the 17 will end up being that NHL player since people develop inconsistently. So you provide a professional quality environment to as many kids as possible and lo and behold natural selection does its thing and we are Olympic champions.

If they just selected the "elite" players and isolated them we'd end up with Brandon Convery, Rico Fata and Alexander Daigle on the national hockey team, except even they wouldn't be nearly as good since they hadn't been playing 60+ games/year in a professional environment.

Team sports are about leagues, not individuals. Rugby keeps making the same mistakes over and over again, focusing on individuals to the detriment of leagues. All of the money spent housing Dan Moor/Patrick Parfrey/Nick Blevins in Langford would be put to better use plowing money into the Marshall league or its regional equivalents, be it coaching, training etc. Same goes for money spent on CRC teams.

Posts: 39
Joined: Tue, 28 Feb 2017, 03:39
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Used2BwithIt » Tue, 28 Nov 2017, 03:52

That's it!

Someone needs to "tell it using hockey" so they can understand how futile a number of their efforts are. Well put!

Posts: 616
Joined: Thu, 01 May 2014, 11:25
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Wed, 29 Nov 2017, 12:07

marvinparsons wrote:
Used2BwithIt wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
ruckovercdn wrote:First of all id hardly call every athlete at Univeristy a "silver spooner." Or apply a work ethic to class ratio. My solution for the costs issue though would be a fold of the CRC and using that money to target athletes with scholardhips from RC to attend those schools, that also makes keeping a kid in rugby attractive to parents. Lets face it, RC does not have the money to set up teams across a the country, nor the money to pay for top tier fitness or practice facilities. Universities already have those things, and are spread across the country which means players dont have to move across the country for amateur sport.


Being able to provide some kind of scholarship program be it full or even half would be quite attractive for many young players I would imagine. How much does it cost RC to run the CRC every year? A quick search suggests that it costs an average of $6500 a year for a domestic student to attend a University in Canada (according to topuniversities.com) so how many full or half scholarships would RC be able to fund by doing away with the CRC and refocusing those funds to the University level of the game?


Firstly, they'd still have to have the marks to get in - and stay in - their programs. Secondly, too many kids already waste time and money going to university because of sport. I've known too many who've wasted time and money switching programs or schools, and some who didn't even finish... all because someone sweet talked them and sold them a dream when they were in high school.

How about actually recognising and supporting the quality club players rather than give free passes to teenagers who might not be any good at the adult. I'm starting to think we're treating rugby like unpopular Olympic individual sports where they bank everything on those few people who are into it and who look promising, hoping for the best at the four year cycle. Team sports, and especially late development, complex physical sport like rugby just doesn't work that way.

Even where they have dominant, high performing schools (like NZ) and well-run academies (England), relatively few U18s / U20s 'make it' as great pros, let alone internationals.


I think your take that the unions are approaching rugby players like players competing in individual sports is pretty spot on. Team sports don't produce talent because of time/money spent on a narrow number of players, they produce talent when they have strong leagues, as strong leagues produce good players. All players need to regularly play in as quality a competition as possible. The focus in Canada has been on "elite" players whether it is U20, U18, national team (Langford etc.) or CRC and the results are horrific as players don't have any quality place to ply their trade for 20-30 games a year.

If you look at successful team sports think of the Canadian hockey league (60 teams with excellent coaching, quality opposition!), AHL hockey, USA minor league baseball A-AAA, NCAA football, high school football in the States, the Mitre 10, Currie Cup. All of these create and produce elite athletes because they provide a quality place for players to improve, be challenged, get good coaching and play their sport. 90% of the players will never go on to higher levels of play, but they are integral to forming quality leagues for the other/better players to play in and improve.

If you take the CHL as an example each team has about 1 or 2 guys that will be a regular NHL player. The remaining 17 players are essential though as those 1 or 2 need a place to play quality hockey; also you don't often know which of the 17 will end up being that NHL player since people develop inconsistently. So you provide a professional quality environment to as many kids as possible and lo and behold natural selection does its thing and we are Olympic champions.

If they just selected the "elite" players and isolated them we'd end up with Brandon Convery, Rico Fata and Alexander Daigle on the national hockey team, except even they wouldn't be nearly as good since they hadn't been playing 60+ games/year in a professional environment.

Team sports are about leagues, not individuals. Rugby keeps making the same mistakes over and over again, focusing on individuals to the detriment of leagues. All of the money spent housing Dan Moor/Patrick Parfrey/Nick Blevins in Langford would be put to better use plowing money into the Marshall league or its regional equivalents, be it coaching, training etc. Same goes for money spent on CRC teams.


Look at Argentina, they are amateur just like us but their club competition is elite. It reminds me of Senior Hockey 20-30 years ago.

Canadian Rugby is essentially beer league at every level. I remain convinced that governing bodies have no business at the professional level of sport.

PS: having an Alexandre Daigle or Rico Fata on the Rugby Canada roster would be a step up for the most part!

Posts: 1458
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Fri, 01 Dec 2017, 12:40

Canadian_Rugger wrote:
Look at Argentina, they are amateur just like us but their club competition is elite. It reminds me of Senior Hockey 20-30 years ago.

Canadian Rugby is essentially beer league at every level. I remain convinced that governing bodies have no business at the professional level of sport.

PS: having an Alexandre Daigle or Rico Fata on the Rugby Canada roster would be a step up for the most part!



I don't think you can compare that. Rugby clubs in Argentina are a meeting point for the upper middle class. Family clubs, with everyone involved. As long as Canada won't have an inequal society as Argentina, this won't work elsewhere.

marvinparsons wrote:Rugby keeps making the same mistakes over and over again, focusing on individuals to the detriment of leagues

Spot on. I think it is in the nature of our sport as even the best competition were organized like that. See the 6N, see the RC, all closed, all focusing on just a few. This is really hard to get rid off.
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 772
Joined: Mon, 02 Jun 2014, 03:08
Location: Ontario
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby LittleGuy » Sun, 03 Dec 2017, 00:20

Hearn had knee surgery, he'll miss the RWCQ's, Evans, Trainor and Coe are almost certain to miss. O'Leary is touch and go, more likely for the away fixture. Rumours are Braid will be pulled in from the 7's side, and Hassler looks available.

http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2017/1 ... vs-canada/

Posts: 1181
Joined: Wed, 25 Feb 2015, 17:54
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Sun, 03 Dec 2017, 00:35

LittleGuy wrote:Hearn had knee surgery, he'll miss the RWCQ's, Evans, Trainor and Coe are almost certain to miss. O'Leary is touch and go, more likely for the away fixture. Rumours are Braid will be pulled in from the 7's side, and Hassler looks available.

http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2017/1 ... vs-canada/



Hassler has been starting every game this season for Ospreys, so he'll be in game shape, which will be nice. The question becomes do we still bring Staller in for goal kicking?

Posts: 1814
Joined: Wed, 16 Apr 2014, 19:00
National Flag:
United StatesUnited States

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Coloradoan » Sun, 03 Dec 2017, 02:00

Used2BwithIt wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
ruckovercdn wrote:First of all id hardly call every athlete at Univeristy a "silver spooner." Or apply a work ethic to class ratio. My solution for the costs issue though would be a fold of the CRC and using that money to target athletes with scholardhips from RC to attend those schools, that also makes keeping a kid in rugby attractive to parents. Lets face it, RC does not have the money to set up teams across a the country, nor the money to pay for top tier fitness or practice facilities. Universities already have those things, and are spread across the country which means players dont have to move across the country for amateur sport.


Being able to provide some kind of scholarship program be it full or even half would be quite attractive for many young players I would imagine. How much does it cost RC to run the CRC every year? A quick search suggests that it costs an average of $6500 a year for a domestic student to attend a University in Canada (according to topuniversities.com) so how many full or half scholarships would RC be able to fund by doing away with the CRC and refocusing those funds to the University level of the game?


Firstly, they'd still have to have the marks to get in - and stay in - their programs. Secondly, too many kids already waste time and money going to university because of sport. I've known too many who've wasted time and money switching programs or schools, and some who didn't even finish... all because someone sweet talked them and sold them a dream when they were in high school.

How about actually recognising and supporting the quality club players rather than give free passes to teenagers who might not be any good at the adult. I'm starting to think we're treating rugby like unpopular Olympic individual sports where they bank everything on those few people who are into it and who look promising, hoping for the best at the four year cycle. Team sports, and especially late development, complex physical sport like rugby just doesn't work that way.

Even where they have dominant, high performing schools (like NZ) and well-run academies (England), relatively few U18s / U20s 'make it' as great pros, let alone internationals.


Do you have any actual data on that? I was somewhat skeptical of this claim so I decided to look at the breakdown of the England team in their last test. Here's what I found:

Starting 15: 13 came through the U20s, 2 (Lozowski, Simmonds) did not.
Bench: 5 came through the U20s, 2 did not (Williams, Francis) and 1 (Rokoduguni) was not eligible at the time.

So that's 18 of 22 (81%) players in the match day squad that came through the U20 team.

Now if your argument is that relatively few of the U20 players turn into internationals, that is true but irrelevant. There are 200+ former U20s between the ages of 21 and 30 for a given country at any time so of course a low percentage of those U20s will end up being senior internationals. But a huge percentage of players that are internationals come through the U20 programs for most nations. The ones that don't tend to be residency or heritage qualified and generally wouldn't have been eligible or on the radar for selection. Anecdotally (which is why I'm hoping you have more data), relatively few seem to be late bloomers who simply weren't good enough for age grade international rugby. Based on that, investing in high performing teenagers seems to be a better investment than you are suggesting.

Online
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun, 18 May 2014, 13:27
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sun, 03 Dec 2017, 02:09

Coloradoan wrote:
Used2BwithIt wrote:
Working Class Rugger wrote:
ruckovercdn wrote:First of all id hardly call every athlete at Univeristy a "silver spooner." Or apply a work ethic to class ratio. My solution for the costs issue though would be a fold of the CRC and using that money to target athletes with scholardhips from RC to attend those schools, that also makes keeping a kid in rugby attractive to parents. Lets face it, RC does not have the money to set up teams across a the country, nor the money to pay for top tier fitness or practice facilities. Universities already have those things, and are spread across the country which means players dont have to move across the country for amateur sport.


Being able to provide some kind of scholarship program be it full or even half would be quite attractive for many young players I would imagine. How much does it cost RC to run the CRC every year? A quick search suggests that it costs an average of $6500 a year for a domestic student to attend a University in Canada (according to topuniversities.com) so how many full or half scholarships would RC be able to fund by doing away with the CRC and refocusing those funds to the University level of the game?


Firstly, they'd still have to have the marks to get in - and stay in - their programs. Secondly, too many kids already waste time and money going to university because of sport. I've known too many who've wasted time and money switching programs or schools, and some who didn't even finish... all because someone sweet talked them and sold them a dream when they were in high school.

How about actually recognising and supporting the quality club players rather than give free passes to teenagers who might not be any good at the adult. I'm starting to think we're treating rugby like unpopular Olympic individual sports where they bank everything on those few people who are into it and who look promising, hoping for the best at the four year cycle. Team sports, and especially late development, complex physical sport like rugby just doesn't work that way.

Even where they have dominant, high performing schools (like NZ) and well-run academies (England), relatively few U18s / U20s 'make it' as great pros, let alone internationals.


Do you have any actual data on that? I was somewhat skeptical of this claim so I decided to look at the breakdown of the England team in their last test. Here's what I found:

Starting 15: 13 came through the U20s, 2 (Lozowski, Simmonds) did not.
Bench: 5 came through the U20s, 2 did not (Williams, Francis) and 1 (Rokoduguni) was not eligible at the time.

So that's 18 of 22 (81%) players in the match day squad that came through the U20 team.

Now if your argument is that relatively few of the U20 players turn into internationals, that is true but irrelevant. There are 200+ former U20s between the ages of 21 and 30 for a given country at any time so of course a low percentage of those U20s will end up being senior internationals. But a huge percentage of players that are internationals come through the U20 programs for most nations. The ones that don't tend to be residency or heritage qualified and generally wouldn't have been eligible or on the radar for selection. Anecdotally (which is why I'm hoping you have more data), relatively few seem to be late bloomers who simply weren't good enough for age grade international rugby. Based on that, investing in high performing teenagers seems to be a better investment than you are suggesting.


And if you look beyond just Canada and at the likes of England and NZ you'll see that holds true. In fact, all of the major Rugby nations use the U20s as a direct path to professionalism and Test Rugby. While the odd late bloomer can emerge they are increasingly rare. So investing in a band of highly talented Rugby athletes and providing them with the necessary training and develop environments is the best practice pathway.

Posts: 226
Joined: Fri, 14 Aug 2015, 13:58
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Sun, 03 Dec 2017, 03:07

I don't have a problem with a u20 team or think it's useless. I have a problem when you have many representative sides but no domestic leagues of any quality and don't even care. The difference in England/New Zealand is that those players have amazing places to play rugby in domestic leagues when not with a national side. I'd be willing to wager most have spent 95% or more of their time there as opposed to rep sides.

Posts: 219
Joined: Wed, 11 Jun 2014, 07:45
National Flag:
ArgentinaArgentina

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby carbonero » Sun, 03 Dec 2017, 06:02

RugbyLiebe wrote:I don't think you can compare that. Rugby clubs in Argentina are a meeting point for the upper middle class. Family clubs, with everyone involved. As long as Canada won't have an inequal society as Argentina, this won't work elsewhere.

All clubs in Argentina are family clubs. Even huge football clubs like River Plate or San Lorenzo are family clubs. It doesn’t have anything to do with inequality.

marvinparsons wrote:Rugby keeps making the same mistakes over and over again, focusing on individuals to the detriment of leagues

You need to focus on both. Let’s hope that the Canadian participation in MLR pans out. If it doesn’t materialize, you have to find other ways to grow.

The high performance model is fine. Rugby Canada fucked it up by moving everything to Langford. Housing is the most inefficient way to spend that money. You should bring the training to the players.

A couple of regional HP centers could do the trick. It is cheaper than it sounds: rent the facilities of an existing club, boost up their gym, provide balls/equipments and hire a local coach/trainer to oversee training. You could call it a shortcut but it’s still a decent way to increase the pool of elite players. Women, Sevens and U20 could also benefit from that infrastructure.

Posts: 772
Joined: Mon, 02 Jun 2014, 03:08
Location: Ontario
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby LittleGuy » Sun, 03 Dec 2017, 20:27

ruckovercdn wrote:
LittleGuy wrote:Hearn had knee surgery, he'll miss the RWCQ's, Evans, Trainor and Coe are almost certain to miss. O'Leary is touch and go, more likely for the away fixture. Rumours are Braid will be pulled in from the 7's side, and Hassler looks available.

http://www.americasrugbynews.com/2017/1 ... vs-canada/



Hassler has been starting every game this season for Ospreys, so he'll be in game shape, which will be nice. The question becomes do we still bring Staller in for goal kicking?


Yeah I was wondering who would kick, unless McRorie is playing at FH, I'm guessing Braid will kick and maybe Staller will be on the bench just in case.

Posts: 1458
Joined: Wed, 14 Oct 2015, 13:30
National Flag:
GermanyGermany

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby RugbyLiebe » Mon, 04 Dec 2017, 08:27

carbonero wrote:
RugbyLiebe wrote:I don't think you can compare that. Rugby clubs in Argentina are a meeting point for the upper middle class. Family clubs, with everyone involved. As long as Canada won't have an inequal society as Argentina, this won't work elsewhere.

All clubs in Argentina are family clubs. Even huge football clubs like River Plate or San Lorenzo are family clubs. It doesn’t have anything to do with inequality.


Sorry for going off-topic here, but that's really interesting. So are there any "worker's" Rugby Union clubs? Always had the feeling that those clubs were at least upper middle class, with a lot of those guys playing coming from "good families".
How to grow rugby worldwide?
Look at the world ranking in July. Teams ranked 1-10 have to play one team from 11-20 (they don't play in a regular competition) away the next year. 11-20 play 21-30 away and so on. Yes, it really is that simple.

Posts: 39
Joined: Tue, 28 Feb 2017, 03:39
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Used2BwithIt » Fri, 08 Dec 2017, 23:58

marvinparsons wrote:I don't have a problem with a u20 team or think it's useless. I have a problem when you have many representative sides but no domestic leagues of any quality and don't even care. The difference in England/New Zealand is that those players have amazing places to play rugby in domestic leagues when not with a national side. I'd be willing to wager most have spent 95% or more of their time there as opposed to rep sides.


Yes, this is a great point. England's academy system is very strong. I don't follow the other NH nations closely, so am not sure how many they 'graduate'.

But if you look at New Zealand's U20 squads for example... the 2011 team was a massive blip compared to others. There are a few more who I recognise from Super teams, but the majority of guys who've played in the U20s over the years don't stand out to me.

2015 - Akira Ioane (5, and don't think he'll see many more), Anton Leniert-Brown (21), Jack Goodhue (on the rise).
http://www.allblacks.com/News/27229/nz- ... s-in-italy

2014 - Damian McKenzie (11), (reckon Mo'unga will at some point)
http://www.allblacks.com/News/24842/nzu ... rb-jwc2014

2013 - Scott Barrett (15), Patrick Tuipolotu (15), Ardie Savea (22)
http://www.allblacks.com/News/22109/nzu ... -in-france

2012 - Nathan Harris (10), Ofa Tuungafasi (13)
http://www.allblacks.com/News/19220/201 ... quad-named

2011 (rare year with a lot of 'grads') - Dom Bird (2), Brodie Retallick (68), Sam Kane (52), Steven Luatua (15), Codie Taylor (28), Luke Whitelock (2), Beauden Barrett (62 - played fullback with Anscombe starting most games), Waisake Naholo (18), TJ Perenara (41), Charles Piutau (16), Francis Saili (2), Lima Sapoaga (15), Brad Weber (called up for one test vs Samoa)
http://www.allblacks.com/News/16054/new ... quad-named

2010 - Tawera Kerr-Barlow (27), Charlie Ngatai (1), Julia Savea (54)
http://allblacks.com/News/12827/new-zea ... quad-named

2009 - Aaron Cruden (50), Zac Guildford (11), Tom Taylor (3)
http://www.allblacks.com/News/9753/new- ... quad-named



You can say that many of the recent All Blacks have come through the the team, but given that they'd have been playing provincial (if not Super!) while in or just out of school, you could also say that they'd have made it anyway. Given that so many from their U20 squads don't even kick on as top level pros, I wouldn't call even their rep program an efficient talent development environment.

I'll never happen, but I'd be willing to bet that we'd have no-worse senior national teams if there were no such thing as provincial teams. I think we'd be better off if that money was re-directed into developing better school and club coaches and in having more competitive regional programs (I'd rather see four or more U20 teams within Ontario compete against each other often than the 'best' facing BC in a national championship once every year). Countries better than us are pulling in kids from all over from very large groups of them who are playing against each other in professional team academies or, in England's case, in a second set of 'academies' in the AASE league, not to mention all of the schools teaching many, many kids the same sort of content our relatively few provincial kids get a few times a year.

So what's the point of provincial teams? Annual bragging rights? From what I've seen in some teams, it's nothing that a well-trained school or club coach couldn't teach them, tactically, or what a PE teacher or trainer at the gym couldn't help them with physically. And with better quality among more than just a handful of schools that always face each other in provincial championships, we're more likely to unearth / develop better talent for higher levels.

Online
Posts: 1030
Joined: Sun, 18 May 2014, 13:27
National Flag:
AustraliaAustralia

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 09 Dec 2017, 02:22

Any thoughts on the deal with CBC?

Posts: 268
Joined: Sun, 06 Dec 2015, 06:42
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Sat, 09 Dec 2017, 23:25

Used2BwithIt wrote:
marvinparsons wrote:I don't have a problem with a u20 team or think it's useless. I have a problem when you have many representative sides but no domestic leagues of any quality and don't even care. The difference in England/New Zealand is that those players have amazing places to play rugby in domestic leagues when not with a national side. I'd be willing to wager most have spent 95% or more of their time there as opposed to rep sides.


Yes, this is a great point. England's academy system is very strong. I don't follow the other NH nations closely, so am not sure how many they 'graduate'.

But if you look at New Zealand's U20 squads for example... the 2011 team was a massive blip compared to others. There are a few more who I recognise from Super teams, but the majority of guys who've played in the U20s over the years don't stand out to me.

2015 - Akira Ioane (5, and don't think he'll see many more), Anton Leniert-Brown (21), Jack Goodhue (on the rise).
http://www.allblacks.com/News/27229/nz- ... s-in-italy

2014 - Damian McKenzie (11), (reckon Mo'unga will at some point)
http://www.allblacks.com/News/24842/nzu ... rb-jwc2014

2013 - Scott Barrett (15), Patrick Tuipolotu (15), Ardie Savea (22)
http://www.allblacks.com/News/22109/nzu ... -in-france

2012 - Nathan Harris (10), Ofa Tuungafasi (13)
http://www.allblacks.com/News/19220/201 ... quad-named

2011 (rare year with a lot of 'grads') - Dom Bird (2), Brodie Retallick (68), Sam Kane (52), Steven Luatua (15), Codie Taylor (28), Luke Whitelock (2), Beauden Barrett (62 - played fullback with Anscombe starting most games), Waisake Naholo (18), TJ Perenara (41), Charles Piutau (16), Francis Saili (2), Lima Sapoaga (15), Brad Weber (called up for one test vs Samoa)
http://www.allblacks.com/News/16054/new ... quad-named

2010 - Tawera Kerr-Barlow (27), Charlie Ngatai (1), Julia Savea (54)
http://allblacks.com/News/12827/new-zea ... quad-named

2009 - Aaron Cruden (50), Zac Guildford (11), Tom Taylor (3)
http://www.allblacks.com/News/9753/new- ... quad-named



You can say that many of the recent All Blacks have come through the the team, but given that they'd have been playing provincial (if not Super!) while in or just out of school, you could also say that they'd have made it anyway. Given that so many from their U20 squads don't even kick on as top level pros, I wouldn't call even their rep program an efficient talent development environment.

I'll never happen, but I'd be willing to bet that we'd have no-worse senior national teams if there were no such thing as provincial teams. I think we'd be better off if that money was re-directed into developing better school and club coaches and in having more competitive regional programs (I'd rather see four or more U20 teams within Ontario compete against each other often than the 'best' facing BC in a national championship once every year). Countries better than us are pulling in kids from all over from very large groups of them who are playing against each other in professional team academies or, in England's case, in a second set of 'academies' in the AASE league, not to mention all of the schools teaching many, many kids the same sort of content our relatively few provincial kids get a few times a year.

So what's the point of provincial teams? Annual bragging rights? From what I've seen in some teams, it's nothing that a well-trained school or club coach couldn't teach them, tactically, or what a PE teacher or trainer at the gym couldn't help them with physically. And with better quality among more than just a handful of schools that always face each other in provincial championships, we're more likely to unearth / develop better talent for higher levels.



Rugby in Canada has become elitist. We aren't hunting for the diamond in the rough kids as RC has developed programs that are suited to deep pocket parents and rich school program.

User avatar
Posts: 437
Joined: Tue, 22 Apr 2014, 16:02
National Flag:
CanadaCanada

Re: Canadian rugby

Postby jonny24 » Sun, 10 Dec 2017, 03:01

Ontario Arrows have posted their spring schedule:
March 3 at Houston Sabrecats
March 17 at Rugby Club NY
April 7 at Utah Warriors
April 14 vs Rugby Club NY
April 21 at Boston (Mystic River)
May 5 vs Boston (Mystic River)


https://mobile.twitter.com/OntarioArrow ... 2421284864

I haven't seen a home venue yet.
Norfolk Harvesters RFC 10-0-0 NRU "B" Division Champions

Previous

Return to Rugby Forum

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], sammo, TheStroBro, Working Class Rugger and 12 guests