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Canadian rugby

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Coloradoan » Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 23:19

ARC squad isn't really representative of the first choice team, though. A first choice starting 15 for the US would be about 2/3 overseas professionals. I guess we will find out come June though.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 06 Apr 2017, 23:24

Coloradoan wrote:ARC squad isn't really representative of the first choice team, though. A first choice starting 15 for the US would be about 2/3 overseas professionals. I guess we will find out come June though.


I'm saying for the entire playing pool, for the starting 15 you'd probably end up with 80% professional play at Premiership or Provincial/2nd Division play. But Samu Manoa just broke his arm so maybe 75%...

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Fri, 07 Apr 2017, 00:57

ruckovercdn wrote:Is the club rugby scene going to get better overall because 2 or 3 guys are playing? That's ridiculous. I was more talking about guys playing professionally, you can't tell me is Rugby Canada's failure these guys want those opportunities.

Just from the fitness perspective it's not possible to be playing in a fully amateur set up and be conditioned for test rugby.



Either can playing professionally and sitting on the bench.....

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Fri, 07 Apr 2017, 01:01

rusty_lock wrote:
snapper37 wrote:
rusty_lock wrote:From the NSMT Coach Mark Anscombe

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AV7pwk_188Q

Wow! Phenomenally honest and forthright comments. God I hope the blazer brigade doesn't skewer him but gives him the tools he needs move things forward.



He complains that club rugby Canada isn't good enough then removes 4 players to go play rugby in NZ. I might add there was NO consultation with the clubs before he removed the players, plus this is playoff time in BC. Figures...And RC wonders why they have a problem dealing with the clubs. Build the Foundation first....

Rugby is getting weaker at the clubs because RC insist on sending players overseas, to not play (his words). When players stay at clubs they help push the next tier of players either at their club or when they play against opposition.


I agree, in principle, but we are at a crisis point and while we have to do all we can to improve domestically, internationally we have to stop this precipitous slide into rugby oblivion. We are now a Tier 3 country and the reality is that a lot of the money and opportunity we get on the international stage is the result of of our standing within the rugby community. I'm sure that everybody would be shocked to hear if Russia or Spain were getting tests against Ireland or Wales or any Tier 1 country We're getting those tesst still but won't very soon. We are currently ranked below both of them and unless we arrest that slide and find a way to climb back into relevance we are going to find it even more difficult to attract younger players. Kids dream of being professional athletes, irrespective of which sport we talk about, and the further away we fall from presenting professionalism to kids the further we fall in the race for kids hearts. We have to attract the kids whose parents weren't players. We have to breathe life into the sport at the very lowest levels and then create structures to retain those athletes as they reach adulthood. With no dream of elite rugby played in front large crowds kids will drift into other areas where that dream has a chance of being reality.

So I hate taking away players from our domestic competitions but until the standard of those competitions is raised, until we create meaningful competitions that exceed what is currently being played in ON and BC and develop a pathway for players to realize the dream of professional rugby I see no alternative.



Arguable at one time the BC Premiere (I agree it has problems) was a fantastic league,all the top players played, now when i watch it it reminds me of or div 2 rugby from the 90's

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Fri, 07 Apr 2017, 03:45

snapper37 wrote:
ruckovercdn wrote:Is the club rugby scene going to get better overall because 2 or 3 guys are playing? That's ridiculous. I was more talking about guys playing professionally, you can't tell me is Rugby Canada's failure these guys want those opportunities.

Just from the fitness perspective it's not possible to be playing in a fully amateur set up and be conditioned for test rugby.



Either can playing professionally and sitting on the bench.....


That s what bothers me missy about Sears Duru, even just paying Scottish Premiership with a full time strength and conditioning coach from Glasgow spoils have had him in fine form. Instead he comes in way putt our shape.

Sitting on the bench still means your working out, and practicing every single day. Nothing replicates games though I agree.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby grande » Fri, 07 Apr 2017, 12:38

Nathan Hirayama is now Canada's top point scorer, passing Phil Mack. He also kicked a penalty after the final whistle to push Canada to beat Kenya, 17-14.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Fri, 07 Apr 2017, 13:04

Interesting comments by Anscombe.

On the subject of club rugby, the standard is poor. It is poor, in part, because many of the players have nothing to play for. They don't see Team Canada as possible, they are good enough to make the first side, so why put any more effort into the sport? So you can play in the CRC?

It was also interesting to hear that they essentially have minimal contact with players when it comes to strength and conditioning. If a player is in Ottawa or Newfoundland he doesn't appear to have a program to do, a specific place to do it or to be coached, or any way to verify that he is compliant.

The solution to the above, to me, would be to:
a) breathe new life into club rugby by making it meaningful and helping athletes get to a higher standard. Select players based on their play here rather than having separate practices and tryouts for representative rugby. This seems backwards, but it will get more of the top players in these games and most importantly IT WILL MAKE CLUB RUGBY MEAN SOMETHING. If the best players are busting their ass in club games to make Team Newfoundland it's going to trickle down. To avoid the harsh travel keep games focused on regional opposition and bring in touring sides and let them do the travel so our best guys can stay put. It is also MUCH EASIER to bring a single selector to games rather than bring 60 players to a selector. We also have video these days. This is common sense. We have geographic issues so lets acknowledge them and work within them. It would be amazing if someone said that North Otago or British Team X are coming to Ottawa in July, a team of the best players in Eastern Ontario will be selected based on their club play, here is the conditioning standard and where to train and then the games went down. Repeat across the country.
c) get as many players into foreign comps as possible
d) try to get a pro club
e) identify early on athletic freaks and keep them involved. Note that the athletic freaks are often the guys that play a few years of high school and then disappear. Give them a clear path.

To my eye this means Rugby Canada needs to do a better job keeping tabs on its players and getting their conditioning up and also getting further into the weeds of the sport. It shouldn't be that hard, the sport is not that prolific. There are probably 50-65 clubs to keep tabs on across the country. It isn't rocket science.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 08 Apr 2017, 03:24

marvinparsons wrote:Interesting comments by Anscombe.

On the subject of club rugby, the standard is poor. It is poor, in part, because many of the players have nothing to play for. They don't see Team Canada as possible, they are good enough to make the first side, so why put any more effort into the sport? So you can play in the CRC?

It was also interesting to hear that they essentially have minimal contact with players when it comes to strength and conditioning. If a player is in Ottawa or Newfoundland he doesn't appear to have a program to do, a specific place to do it or to be coached, or any way to verify that he is compliant.

The solution to the above, to me, would be to:
a) breathe new life into club rugby by making it meaningful and helping athletes get to a higher standard. Select players based on their play here rather than having separate practices and tryouts for representative rugby. This seems backwards, but it will get more of the top players in these games and most importantly IT WILL MAKE CLUB RUGBY MEAN SOMETHING. If the best players are busting their ass in club games to make Team Newfoundland it's going to trickle down. To avoid the harsh travel keep games focused on regional opposition and bring in touring sides and let them do the travel so our best guys can stay put. It is also MUCH EASIER to bring a single selector to games rather than bring 60 players to a selector. We also have video these days. This is common sense. We have geographic issues so lets acknowledge them and work within them. It would be amazing if someone said that North Otago or British Team X are coming to Ottawa in July, a team of the best players in Eastern Ontario will be selected based on their club play, here is the conditioning standard and where to train and then the games went down. Repeat across the country.
c) get as many players into foreign comps as possible
d) try to get a pro club
e) identify early on athletic freaks and keep them involved. Note that the athletic freaks are often the guys that play a few years of high school and then disappear. Give them a clear path.

To my eye this means Rugby Canada needs to do a better job keeping tabs on its players and getting their conditioning up and also getting further into the weeds of the sport. It shouldn't be that hard, the sport is not that prolific. There are probably 50-65 clubs to keep tabs on across the country. It isn't rocket science.


With the Pro club side of things. If a number of individual clubs in the US are able to mobilise resources in order to get the MLR going, how hard would it be for a Union such as BC or Ontario ,or people connected to the game from within those communities with the resources to do so, to look to enter the likes of the Blues and Bears into the MLR?

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Used2BwithIt » Sat, 08 Apr 2017, 17:23

marvinparsons wrote:e) identify early on athletic freaks and keep them involved. Note that the athletic freaks are often the guys that play a few years of high school and then disappear. Give them a clear path.

To my eye this means Rugby Canada needs to do a better job keeping tabs on its players and getting their conditioning up and also getting further into the weeds of the sport. It shouldn't be that hard, the sport is not that prolific. There are probably 50-65 clubs to keep tabs on across the country. It isn't rocket science.


Things change physically in some even later. England's Joe Launchbury was cut by has Academy at 18 and a year later was starring for the U20s, with an England cap a year or so after that. I'd say they're already giving the early developers / kids who've benefited from good rugby education a free pass. It's the late developers, the ones who disappear as you say, who need greater attention.

And since that's not so easy to predict, the solution has to be a wider effort into educating coaches beyond the basic NCCP courses to educate more kids to a higher standard. If the school and club coaches aren't making rugby interesting, fun, and rewarding - which is largely the case now by the quality and number of players we have - the freak athletes go do something else, and they'll make that decision quite early.


... and added to the U18s' loss to Georgia yesterday by 3-43, the U19s lost today to England U18s 11-55. These one-offs won't help them be better players. Playing in more competitive domestic leagues - where every school/club is strong, not just a few that plateau with not many to challenge them - will do a better job of it.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Sat, 08 Apr 2017, 18:05

Working Class Rugger wrote:
marvinparsons wrote:Interesting comments by Anscombe.

On the subject of club rugby, the standard is poor. It is poor, in part, because many of the players have nothing to play for. They don't see Team Canada as possible, they are good enough to make the first side, so why put any more effort into the sport? So you can play in the CRC?

It was also interesting to hear that they essentially have minimal contact with players when it comes to strength and conditioning. If a player is in Ottawa or Newfoundland he doesn't appear to have a program to do, a specific place to do it or to be coached, or any way to verify that he is compliant.

The solution to the above, to me, would be to:
a) breathe new life into club rugby by making it meaningful and helping athletes get to a higher standard. Select players based on their play here rather than having separate practices and tryouts for representative rugby. This seems backwards, but it will get more of the top players in these games and most importantly IT WILL MAKE CLUB RUGBY MEAN SOMETHING. If the best players are busting their ass in club games to make Team Newfoundland it's going to trickle down. To avoid the harsh travel keep games focused on regional opposition and bring in touring sides and let them do the travel so our best guys can stay put. It is also MUCH EASIER to bring a single selector to games rather than bring 60 players to a selector. We also have video these days. This is common sense. We have geographic issues so lets acknowledge them and work within them. It would be amazing if someone said that North Otago or British Team X are coming to Ottawa in July, a team of the best players in Eastern Ontario will be selected based on their club play, here is the conditioning standard and where to train and then the games went down. Repeat across the country.
c) get as many players into foreign comps as possible
d) try to get a pro club
e) identify early on athletic freaks and keep them involved. Note that the athletic freaks are often the guys that play a few years of high school and then disappear. Give them a clear path.

To my eye this means Rugby Canada needs to do a better job keeping tabs on its players and getting their conditioning up and also getting further into the weeds of the sport. It shouldn't be that hard, the sport is not that prolific. There are probably 50-65 clubs to keep tabs on across the country. It isn't rocket science.


With the Pro club side of things. If a number of individual clubs in the US are able to mobilise resources in order to get the MLR going, how hard would it be for a Union such as BC or Ontario ,or people connected to the game from within those communities with the resources to do so, to look to enter the likes of the Blues and Bears into the MLR?


If a US professional league got started I think the provinces and Rugby Canada could put together the resources to enter some form of professional side in Vancouver/Toronto. I don't know how viable these teams would be economically in the long-term. Sports is a tough business and there is no tradition of paying to watch rugby in this country.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Sat, 08 Apr 2017, 18:17

Used2BwithIt wrote:
marvinparsons wrote:e) identify early on athletic freaks and keep them involved. Note that the athletic freaks are often the guys that play a few years of high school and then disappear. Give them a clear path.

To my eye this means Rugby Canada needs to do a better job keeping tabs on its players and getting their conditioning up and also getting further into the weeds of the sport. It shouldn't be that hard, the sport is not that prolific. There are probably 50-65 clubs to keep tabs on across the country. It isn't rocket science.


Things change physically in some even later. England's Joe Launchbury was cut by has Academy at 18 and a year later was starring for the U20s, with an England cap a year or so after that. I'd say they're already giving the early developers / kids who've benefited from good rugby education a free pass. It's the late developers, the ones who disappear as you say, who need greater attention.

And since that's not so easy to predict, the solution has to be a wider effort into educating coaches beyond the basic NCCP courses to educate more kids to a higher standard. If the school and club coaches aren't making rugby interesting, fun, and rewarding - which is largely the case now by the quality and number of players we have - the freak athletes go do something else, and they'll make that decision quite early.


... and added to the U18s' loss to Georgia yesterday by 3-43, the U19s lost today to England U18s 11-55. These one-offs won't help them be better players. Playing in more competitive domestic leagues - where every school/club is strong, not just a few that plateau with not many to challenge them - will do a better job of it.


I agree on kids developing differently. There should be a strong enough system to train players so they can still enter at a later age, regardless of whether they are in an Academy or whatever. Main point, however, is to take raw skill and turn it into rugby players, which is what Anscombe said in his speech. You can know rugby, train appropriately, but if you aren't big enough, strong enough or fast enough, you will never make a difference at international level. I'd offer Ray Barkwill, Nick Blevins and Pat Parfrey as exhibits A,B and C, as well as Rumball. They know the sport, they are in decent shape, but they are not physically gifted athletes. A guy like Phil Mack, at least at sevens, HAS that physical attribute to be international quality. He has elite quickness. Jamie Cudmore is an absolute tank of a human. You will never turn Brett Beukeboom or Connor Keys into Jamie Cudmore.

The system needs to be wide and strong enough to identify those physical marvels and keep them involved, whether they are on Vancouver Island, Quebec City or Halifax.

The coaches can have all the knowledge in the world, but there has to be a logical system to get players from Club X to the national side and to make club rugby more meaningful. The only way it can be made more meaningful is if the provincial and national unions pay it a bit of attention, fluff its feathers and make it matter. Otherwise there is no incentive for that 20 year old to improve or stick with the sport because he is just playing in a random cornfield every Saturday.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby IrishLock » Sun, 09 Apr 2017, 03:09

marvinparsons wrote:Interesting comments by Anscombe.


It was also interesting to hear that they essentially have minimal contact with players when it comes to strength and conditioning. If a player is in Ottawa or Newfoundland he doesn't appear to have a program to do, a specific place to do it or to be coached, or any way to verify that he is compliant.



I found this part of what he said VERY hard to comprehend / believe. The HP dept has for a long time had a S&C professional, almost all regions have academy sessions going on and pretty sure guys are given programs....saying fitness is poor is essentially calling out existing RC employees as well as HP dept protocol / programs. Secondly, Anscombe has been in the job for almost 12 months....fitness is the EASIEST thing to fix, put program and standards in place, compliance from players.....how is this NOT fixed??

Secondly: he says we need to place more players overseas but then complains that overseas players (Duru, Braid) arent playing enough - said they hadnt played any games....those clubs all have reserves programs....hard to believe they weren't playing at all. If we send more players overseas will that fix the problem?

Last point, people have enjoyed the 'brutal honesty'. All I see is the same / similar excuses aired by the former NSMT coach who also ran down club game, said we needed PRO rugby or wouldnt get better. Strange surely that when Francois Ratier was temporarily in place with, I would suggest, less support than GA gets....the results were markedly better. Is our current setup ideal? Of course not. Is pro rugby about to debut on Canadian soil....absolutely not. So instead of bemoaning how it's not like NZ here (maybe should have that figured out before agreeing to 6 figure salary) maybe needs to think outside the box and look for creative solutions.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Sun, 09 Apr 2017, 03:15

What academy programs? In Edmonton and Calgary the elite academies are for u18 and younger. There's wolf pack but that's hardly enough to keep a guy fit.

Rather did a good job but he had all or international pros and won one game against Russia.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Sun, 09 Apr 2017, 05:32

In regards to Fitness being the easiest thing to fix...the team this year is much more conditioned, showing up to camp unfit gets you sent home and or cut.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Sun, 09 Apr 2017, 13:11

IrishLock wrote:
marvinparsons wrote:Interesting comments by Anscombe.


It was also interesting to hear that they essentially have minimal contact with players when it comes to strength and conditioning. If a player is in Ottawa or Newfoundland he doesn't appear to have a program to do, a specific place to do it or to be coached, or any way to verify that he is compliant.



I found this part of what he said VERY hard to comprehend / believe. The HP dept has for a long time had a S&C professional, almost all regions have academy sessions going on and pretty sure guys are given programs....saying fitness is poor is essentially calling out existing RC employees as well as HP dept protocol / programs. Secondly, Anscombe has been in the job for almost 12 months....fitness is the EASIEST thing to fix, put program and standards in place, compliance from players.....how is this NOT fixed??

Secondly: he says we need to place more players overseas but then complains that overseas players (Duru, Braid) arent playing enough - said they hadnt played any games....those clubs all have reserves programs....hard to believe they weren't playing at all. If we send more players overseas will that fix the problem?

Last point, people have enjoyed the 'brutal honesty'. All I see is the same / similar excuses aired by the former NSMT coach who also ran down club game, said we needed PRO rugby or wouldnt get better. Strange surely that when Francois Ratier was temporarily in place with, I would suggest, less support than GA gets....the results were markedly better. Is our current setup ideal? Of course not. Is pro rugby about to debut on Canadian soil....absolutely not. So instead of bemoaning how it's not like NZ here (maybe should have that figured out before agreeing to 6 figure salary) maybe needs to think outside the box and look for creative solutions.


All regions having academy systems is news to me. My guess is that the players are sometimes given a program, but have to find their own gym and do the work on their own time, so the standard isn't met.

I agree that bemoaning that it is not New Zealand or Wales is unproductive. We need a made in Canada answer to most of what ails us.

Getting more players on foreign teams or pro teams are tough asks. Currently 18 international players are plying their trade in Canada for clubs. Fixing club rugby is the one area where there is easy hope for improvement and should therefore be a top priority. Even if you get a pro team or foreign teams, you still need a solid level underneath to unearth these players and do the early training.

As always I advocate for a nationwide form of club rugby to channel our resources towards with set teams receiving attention and financial assistance where needed. BC / Western Canada / GTA / Ottawa and Quebec / East Coast. 6 clubs per league, 28 clubs, 616 players and 28 coaches to keep track of. Get set gyms and training programs for players that are in these leagues. Pick the best for regional or Canadian caps.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby grande » Mon, 10 Apr 2017, 18:31

DTH scored a hat trick for the Scarlets on the weekend.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/39527451

Also, woah, three cards at the same time for Treviso? Jeeeeze.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Used2BwithIt » Tue, 11 Apr 2017, 15:40

.... annnnnd, the U18s just lost to Belgium (U18s, to be clear) 0-19. Very poor basic skills and a lot of guys going out on their own. When their attack was coordinated, they actually looked good, but those moments were rare.

Tough to just throw teams together like this, sure, but the standard of skill, support, game awareness has to be better at the next level(s) down so the rep coaches don't have to teach new things, just steer them all in the right direction. Funnily enough, Belgium soccer revitalised itself to become a European power by declaring that all clubs must teach to a certain standard, and I think even imposed upon them a style of playing that created more rounded players. Something like that is needed here!

It's a very good read for those involved with youth rugby: https://www.theguardian.com/football/bl ... world-cup-

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Fri, 14 Apr 2017, 05:54

https://www.instagram.com/p/BS1jQpZBt9p/

Rugby Canada taking an interesting step hunting new players.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby 4N » Fri, 14 Apr 2017, 13:06

ruckovercdn wrote:https://www.instagram.com/p/BS1jQpZBt9p/

Rugby Canada taking an interesting step hunting new players.


RC have made some good moves in the last couple of weeks.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Sat, 15 Apr 2017, 18:14

Well maybe; I don't know where they expect these guys to play though. It's going to be a hard sell to go from playing for the likes of Laval's football program to playing for a local club while you learn your trade.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby IrishLock » Sat, 15 Apr 2017, 20:47

ruckovercdn wrote:Well maybe; I don't know where they expect these guys to play though. It's going to be a hard sell to go from playing for the likes of Laval's football program to playing for a local club while you learn your trade.



My take is they would not be going to local club initially....likely looking to centralise a couple with the 15s / 7s group. Agree that 2X practices per week with beer league club rugby would not fly with student-athletes used to 1X practices per day plus S&C program...

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Was_a_Kat » Sat, 15 Apr 2017, 23:55

U-18s beat the US today, so that softens the blow of the Belgium loss, possibly. 10 years ago I didn't even know Belgium and Brazil were rugby nations.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Sun, 16 Apr 2017, 01:11

IrishLock wrote:
ruckovercdn wrote:Well maybe; I don't know where they expect these guys to play though. It's going to be a hard sell to go from playing for the likes of Laval's football program to playing for a local club while you learn your trade.



My take is they would not be going to local club initially....likely looking to centralise a couple with the 15s / 7s group. Agree that 2X practices per week with beer league club rugby would not fly with student-athletes used to 1X practices per day plus S&C program...


They'd have tho get into a club set up at some point though. You can't just practice and then go play a test match. That's how you lose to brazil.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby 4N » Sun, 16 Apr 2017, 12:53

And now a Cup Final win in Singapore. Well done!

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby IrishLock » Sun, 16 Apr 2017, 14:03

ruckovercdn wrote:
They'd have tho get into a club set up at some point though. You can't just practice and then go play a test match. That's how you lose to brazil.


Valid point! I'm sure the Victoria club would be very carefully selected :-P

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