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Canadian rugby

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Suiram » Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 00:59

thatrugbyguy wrote:Yes, very nice little stadium in Halifax. It would be good if US v Canada matches could be held at bigger venues, but hopefully that will come in time. But a nice little stadium indeed.


I think when it really matters, it can get a bigger draw, like the WC qualifier. And if I remember correctly, the warm up test before the RWC.I would love if they always filled 30-40k stadiums, but given the realistic choice of getting 8-10k in a 30k stadium, or worse getting 4-5k in some bleachers out in the forest, or packing a 5-6k stadium right downtown in a city where it actually looks like people are enjoying themselves....I'll take the final option.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Mon, 25 Jun 2018, 03:33

grande wrote:
Suiram wrote:I cannot understand why the commentators are talking up the focus on fitness at Langford. Like something is going wrong up there if that’s true because the Canadian players, especially those not overseas professionals do NOT look that fit. Either the players at Langford are wrong or the training regimen isn’t getting them match fit. Kept saying they are lifting the weights, putting in the hard work. But my fear is that there is not a real pressure to do more or the right program.


THIS THIS THIS. They keep talking about how many weights they lift, but then they can't play 80 (or even 60) minutes of rugby. I don't give a shit how much you can bench, if you can't throw/catch/tackle, it doesn't mean a thing.


RC has been grabbing players from crossfit gyms instead of rugby fields......

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rusty_lock » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 00:37

Unfortunately it is the same sad old song over and over again. I didn't watch the Canada US match this time. I think that that is a first for me. There was never any prospect of winning and that is the tragedy. I understand that we were missing some key players but it wasn't going to change the outcome. We have no depth whatsoever. We have about 10 players capable of playing international rugby. Probably 5 at a Tier 1 level and 5 at a Tier 2 level. I think about 5 of them were injured or otherwise unavailable. Everyone after that is simply not up to standard. By the time you get to the bench we are so far away from competent that it looks like we are looking through a telescope backwards.

The entire structure of RC need to be shelved. RC should scrap all of the money they are putting into the senior mens team at Langford and redirect that into the U20 program. The carded program should be devoted entirely to them. Develop as many high performance 18 and 19 year olds as possible and then turn them loose to sink or swim professionally. If you can't make a living playing professionally overseas or get yourself set up in an academy somewhere where you will receive training and game time by 21 you're not going to make it. The U20 program, properly funded and properly administered and given regular and sufficient competition can develop high performance players that can go on to professional opportunities else where. Whether that is Europe, down under or MLR is up to the individual desire and given talent and commitment. National Senior mens selectors should then select from the best available players playing professional rugby. When is the last time the an All Black was selected who played in NZ's Heartland comp. or an England player selected from Nation 1. A player sitting in Langford making 1770 dollars per month, lifting kettle bells all day and playing CDI rugby on the weekends (often out of position) is wholly insufficient to prepare a player to play test rugby against meaningful competition. That is not professionalism. Our loss to Brazil in March of 2017 should have firmly fixed that in our mind.

Our tight five has been a joke for almost a decade. Watching them clean a ruck makes you nauseas. Watching a real midfield run over our loose forwards ought to have embarrassed somebody. Spinning the ball out wide so DTH or Hassler or Paris can turn Sow's ear into a silk purse isn't a game plan that should be seen above 3rd division rugby. Unfortunately there has not been enough shame to motivate anyone to make any meaningful change at any level. The best hope for our National team is that professional rugby comes to Canada in spite of RC's failings.

I have no idea if Kingsley-Jones is a good coach or he is shite. He certainly has earned the ire of many posters here. I think if you basing you views of his work with the Canadian national team, I think that that is unfair. You could have Steve Hansen, Sir Clive Woodward and Graham Fukcing Henry and the US was still going to lay a beat down on us. Ive coached enough to know that no matter what you say or do sometimes you team is just shit.

I'm tired of hearing Rees talking about how hard they are working. The players selected have no chance of success no matter how hard they work or who is their coach.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Used2BwithIt » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 12:03

I'm not sure even focusing on a U20 program would be enough. I think it has to start younger, with the U20 program being a final training / testing ground, getting the absolute best from all of our schools and clubs.

It'd also be great if we could work out ways for our young players (east of BC, but I don't even know if BC kids get a decent run of games) to play more games with well-coached programs. Coach Ed is my big soap box issue, but even where the coaching is good, most get 6-10 games a season. I've been talking with friends in Ontario, thinking we'd be better off with April-Aug club rugby and fall school rugby (even if it means taking on football).

Anyone know how Georgia's system works? They were very impressive in the JWC tournament. And it'll be interesting to see how many end up being good pros - or if it was a case of big bullies rumbling smaller teens - but it's certainly better than we're doing.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 13:13

Rugby Canada being removed from the Canada Games was the beginning of Rugby's downward spiral as a proper school sport. High School Rugby could be very big in this country but it is becoming more of a joke each year. I briefly helped out with a high school program this year, the coaching was abysmal and in some cases, downright unsafe. Then again, most school sport is dying because it's a huge liability issue for the school and they aren't getting the qualified volunteers that they used to.

The only way I see the NSMT turning it around even remotely in the near future is if a couple of professional teams are entered in to a competition like MLR and players are recruited based on merit rather than political connections. Rugby Canada's high performance program is a joke because the players that are part of it barely play rugby and the rugby they do play isn't even remotely elite.

The problem with Rugby in Canada is everyone is looking for the quick fix and there is no unity within Rugby Canada. From what I can see, it's Lower Mainland/Victoria BC with there high preponderance of British Private Schools vs everyone else. We don't even have a unified season in Canada.

Club Rugby is getting weaker every year and there is no community in the game anymore. Want to fix Rugby? Make club rugby the pinnacle of the amateur game again and the sport will begin to sort itself out. Instead of funding a high performance program, Rugby Canada should be paying for national championships and regional competitions. They should be setting standards and regulating the sport.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Used2BwithIt » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 13:55

Great points! ... exactly why I keep saying Argentina could have some answers for us. They produced great players that got them to a RWC semi (and third place?) without a pro league, but a strong club system that sent players to the best teams in Europe.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 14:43

Used2BwithIt wrote:Great points! ... exactly why I keep saying Argentina could have some answers for us. They produced great players that got them to a RWC semi (and third place?) without a pro league, but a strong club system that sent players to the best teams in Europe.


BINGO!

Argentina Club Rugby:

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Look at the sponsors on the jersey's: Ford, Toyota, Volkswagen, Fiat, VISA, etc. Look at the people in the stands to watch a bunch of amateurs play rugby. Why, because the town gets behind the clubs and they are connected to their communities.

Contrast this with the sport here:

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BC Premier League played in front of a couple of old farts in the park who happen to be walking their dog.

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Look at the McCormick Cup Final! What a crowd! Man with dog in top right corner of photo for added effect!

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 15:14

https://youtu.be/csiKSfuWKT4

Some outstanding posts. Club rugby doesn't have to be a steaming pile of turd, it can be much more. It is so absolutely dire because of poor administration.

Check out the above link for a USA amateur game.

The worst moment for me in my rugby playing career was actually the pinnacle. We played Balmy Beach in the McCormick Cup and I realized they were just average like us. The whole sport is a mess if they are the absolute best. No beasts on their team, same shitty park with missing grass and undulating surface. Same geriatric fans. It was depressing.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 15:22

What i liked seeing in Victoria is when they used to do double header prem games at one field. It doesn't make sense to me to divide the small group of fans we have, In my mind once a month or so have a double header game and make a day or event of watching multiple Prem (as weak as it is) in one location, don't divide the fans . Get the beers flowing and draw all the fans to one location

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 15:33

To cheer you up, that is almost exactly what Brazilian rugby is. Fields with depressing grass (I've seen worse grass in our top division than that one in BC), a couple of dudes watching (some with their dogs :lol: ) and that's it. The difference is that almost none of our clubs own their fields and the average age of the spectators look a bit younger.
Brazilian Rugby News: www.portaldorugby.com.br

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 15:36

victorsra wrote:To cheer you up, that is almost exactly what Brazilian rugby is. Fields with depressing grass (I've seen worse grass in our top division than that one in BC), a couple of dudes watching (some with their dogs :lol: ) and that's it. The difference is that almost none of our clubs own their fields and the average age of the spectators look a bit younger.



Very few of our clubs own their fields to. i think most play on municipal fields.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby victorsra » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 15:40

To make clear: we have just ONE club that owns its field and there is another club starting to build one. The rest play in public fields or do partnership with other institutions. Some have stable solid situations, some are nomads. The problem is the small number of rugby-specific fields. In São Paulo city we have only 3. In Rio just 1.
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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 15:41

marvinparsons wrote:https://youtu.be/csiKSfuWKT4

Some outstanding posts. Club rugby doesn't have to be a steaming pile of turd, it can be much more. It is so absolutely dire because of poor administration.

Check out the above link for a USA amateur game.

The worst moment for me in my rugby playing career was actually the pinnacle. We played Balmy Beach in the McCormick Cup and I realized they were just average like us. The whole sport is a mess if they are the absolute best. No beasts on their team, same shitty park with missing grass and undulating surface. Same geriatric fans. It was depressing.


That match is a bit of an exception and was part of a long term strategic plan by the city of Glendale. In 2006 they decided to become RugbyTown USA...it's a small place in the middle of the Denver metro area. Run their club through the city recreation department (oh my what an idea....), then the Austin Huns had recruited with the help of the pre-cursor to Austin Elite Rugby in Huns Rugby Management to build a team originally trying to join PRO (Glendale wanted the Denver License, and Houston SaberCats also wanted in), but Doug said NOPE. Then the MRC and now MLR unfolded. A lot of details in between, but at the time Glendale was the only club broadcasting their home matches regularly by a few years.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 17:55

Fair play on Glendale, I was actually looking for a video of some club final, I believe in NYC, that looked very professional.

I don't think it is asking too much for Rugby Canada, clubs and provincial unions to get 20 or so clubs up to around a Junior B hockey standard. That should be achievable. If it was accomplished we'd be a T2 power.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby grande » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 23:32

Gruff Rees eyes 2019 World Cup coaching role with Canada

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44603284

Just what we needed: Another Rees!

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby LittleGuy » Tue, 26 Jun 2018, 23:54

grande wrote:Gruff Rees eyes 2019 World Cup coaching role with Canada

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/44603284

Just what we needed: Another Rees!


For a couple of seconds I actually thought the article would be about Gareth and "Gruff" was just talking about what a slovenly fat turd he looks like now.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Suiram » Wed, 27 Jun 2018, 02:15

Not to rub salt in the wound but I just rewatched Scotland v USA with the sound on. The BBC stream. In the first half they spend 25% of their time calling the game, 25% fetishizing / fantasizing about Paul Lasike, and the remaining 50% is them pointing how unfit Canada was compared to the US and that they didn’t look like athletes.

It was actually kind of weird, because it kept happening, and seemed pretty disrespectful coming from the talking heads (no euphisms or qualifiers).

Regarding club rugby, I don’t think the US is much better on average but we are trying at the top. ARP, PRP, MRC, Cal Cup. Lots of peoples are putting a ton of effort into proving they have the right concept. Not all work but some do and it is raising the level of play. And to some extent they are creating a marketable product (NY Glendale, California, is really where it’s at in that sense).

But that’s all independent folk. I guess USAR’s best input is to fund club championships and mostly get out of the way when people are trying to create new concepts

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby 4N » Wed, 27 Jun 2018, 02:29

Suiram wrote:Not to rub salt in the wound but I just rewatched Scotland v USA with the sound on. The BBC stream. In the first half they spend 25% of their time calling the game, 25% fetishizing / fantasizing about Paul Lasike, and the remaining 50% is them pointing how unfit Canada was compared to the US and that they didn’t look like athletes.

It was actually kind of weird, because it kept happening, and seemed pretty disrespectful coming from the talking heads (no euphisms or qualifiers).


This is a pretty weird take tbh. Dallas Stanford (on US feed) is a way worse commentator, borderline unwatchable at times. Someone on Reddit called him "Kermit on speed." :lol:

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Wed, 27 Jun 2018, 03:19

4N wrote:
Suiram wrote:Not to rub salt in the wound but I just rewatched Scotland v USA with the sound on. The BBC stream. In the first half they spend 25% of their time calling the game, 25% fetishizing / fantasizing about Paul Lasike, and the remaining 50% is them pointing how unfit Canada was compared to the US and that they didn’t look like athletes.

It was actually kind of weird, because it kept happening, and seemed pretty disrespectful coming from the talking heads (no euphisms or qualifiers).


This is a pretty weird take tbh. Dallas Stanford (on US feed) is a way worse commentator, borderline unwatchable at times. Someone on Reddit called him "Kermit on speed." :lol:


Dallen is god damn awful.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Wed, 27 Jun 2018, 03:33

I think what I'm seeing out of the comparison between the Argentine clubs and the top end of BC and Ontario is fairly easily solvable. In Alberta we have 1500 seaters for Rugby in Edmonton and Calgary, play offs and championships get played there. If the BCRU invested in something like that, or opted to play at Brockton Oval or Thunderbird or Langford for at least Championships / finals the that could become palatable to local TV and that can hopefully spiral into more sponsorship money. Similarly if effort was put in to making these games into events then maybe you could increase attendance? Hey here's an idea, don't charge 10 dollars for admission, sell them 20 in beer.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Used2BwithIt » Wed, 27 Jun 2018, 10:24

ruckovercdn wrote:I think what I'm seeing out of the comparison between the Argentine clubs and the top end of BC and Ontario is fairly easily solvable. In Alberta we have 1500 seaters for Rugby in Edmonton and Calgary, play offs and championships get played there. If the BCRU invested in something like that, or opted to play at Brockton Oval or Thunderbird or Langford for at least Championships / finals the that could become palatable to local TV and that can hopefully spiral into more sponsorship money. Similarly if effort was put in to making these games into events then maybe you could increase attendance? Hey here's an idea, don't charge 10 dollars for admission, sell them 20 in beer.


Spot on about charging admission!

Do Twin Elm and Fletchers still charge players entry for their own home games? How do you encourage more than friends and family to come out when people on the fence about becoming a fan are being charged at the gate? (Not to mention how far away from urban centres they are ... in Ottawa, would have random people see us training, ask when games were to come watch, learn it was 30kms from where we were and see the disappointment on their faces followed by saying they'd probably give it a miss then.)

I belonged to a club in England that did charge (first team games only, two tiers off the Premiership so a good standard), but your fee included a ticket for a drink and a hot dog. They'd take a large chunk of it as profit, but at least you felt like you got something out of it. At TERP and Fletcher's, you'd get charged for the 'spectacle' of Canadian 3rd division match.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Wed, 27 Jun 2018, 11:14

Some good posts guys! I would say the biggest issue in Canada is clubs aren't allowed to be ambitious because the structures don't allow them to be.

One thing that rugby has actually going for it that makes it unique is the large number of adults that compete in the sport. This makes it far different from every other sport in this country where participation usually ends after the age 18.

Club Rugby could be so much more if the club game was treated as more than just a participation sport. That's the difference between places like Argentina, Uruguay and the United States vice the Canadian Club game.

Clubs like Glendale, Carrasco Polo (Uruguay) or Hindu (Argentina) would never be allowed to exist in the Canadian system because they would undermine entrenched interests.

It reminds me of what Senior Hockey used to be like in this country. I remember watching senior AAA hockey as a kid and it was all local guys who worked in the town but the hockey was good and was competitive. Hockey Canada has managed to kill that though with the hockey rebranding going on in this country with favour being given to finesse over grit.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rusty_lock » Wed, 27 Jun 2018, 14:55

ruckovercdn wrote:I think what I'm seeing out of the comparison between the Argentine clubs and the top end of BC and Ontario is fairly easily solvable. In Alberta we have 1500 seaters for Rugby in Edmonton and Calgary, play offs and championships get played there. If the BCRU invested in something like that, or opted to play at Brockton Oval or Thunderbird or Langford for at least Championships / finals the that could become palatable to local TV and that can hopefully spiral into more sponsorship money. Similarly if effort was put in to making these games into events then maybe you could increase attendance? Hey here's an idea, don't charge 10 dollars for admission, sell them 20 in beer.


BC Championships, the last two years, has been played at Rotary Stadium in Abbotsford. It seats 3000 covered and another 1000 uncovered. Getting people out and making this a good event isn't the problem. The problem is there is an insufficient number of players moving up from youth to senior mens rugby and for those that do the gap between senior mens and international rugby is to great. Without the breadth of players to choose from and with most of the money being dumped into adult players who have already been "discovered", high performance opportunities that aid in transitioning from High School/Regional Representative Rugby to higher honours is really limited. A three day festival in March for U18 players and the week long CRC for U19 level just isn't enough.

I am all for improving local club rugby but senior mens local club rugby isn't what's going to lead us to players who have the ability to become players capable of playing international test rugby. John Tavares wasn't discovered because he played house league hockey in Mississauga. He was selected to play CHL Major Junior Hockey when he was 14 and was rookie of the year at 15. High performance opportunities at young ages is what's going to help us move the ball forward.

I agree with the poster commenting on Coaching Ed. I have coached in Basketball as well as Rugby. I understand to principles of coaching but finding rugby specific coaching development courses is limited. This year there were two in the BC. One in Nanaimo and a second one in Kelowna and that is it. Nothing was held in the most populous region in the province all year long. The level of coaching at high school rugby is, in some instances, abominable.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Wed, 27 Jun 2018, 16:33

rusty_lock wrote:
ruckovercdn wrote:I think what I'm seeing out of the comparison between the Argentine clubs and the top end of BC and Ontario is fairly easily solvable. In Alberta we have 1500 seaters for Rugby in Edmonton and Calgary, play offs and championships get played there. If the BCRU invested in something like that, or opted to play at Brockton Oval or Thunderbird or Langford for at least Championships / finals the that could become palatable to local TV and that can hopefully spiral into more sponsorship money. Similarly if effort was put in to making these games into events then maybe you could increase attendance? Hey here's an idea, don't charge 10 dollars for admission, sell them 20 in beer.


BC Championships, the last two years, has been played at Rotary Stadium in Abbotsford. It seats 3000 covered and another 1000 uncovered. Getting people out and making this a good event isn't the problem. The problem is there is an insufficient number of players moving up from youth to senior mens rugby and for those that do the gap between senior mens and international rugby is to great. Without the breadth of players to choose from and with most of the money being dumped into adult players who have already been "discovered", high performance opportunities that aid in transitioning from High School/Regional Representative Rugby to higher honours is really limited. A three day festival in March for U18 players and the week long CRC for U19 level just isn't enough.

I am all for improving local club rugby but senior mens local club rugby isn't what's going to lead us to players who have the ability to become players capable of playing international test rugby. John Tavares wasn't discovered because he played house league hockey in Mississauga. He was selected to play CHL Major Junior Hockey when he was 14 and was rookie of the year at 15. High performance opportunities at young ages is what's going to help us move the ball forward.

I agree with the poster commenting on Coaching Ed. I have coached in Basketball as well as Rugby. I understand to principles of coaching but finding rugby specific coaching development courses is limited. This year there were two in the BC. One in Nanaimo and a second one in Kelowna and that is it. Nothing was held in the most populous region in the province all year long. The level of coaching at high school rugby is, in some instances, abominable.




I don't agree with pushing kids into high performance to early, in my experience the ones that don't succeed (which is over 95% of them) end up disliking the sport that propelled them to go elite and end up walking away from it.

What we need is a national junior league that drives more teenager to play longer and hopefully entice younger and younger kids to start playing earlier. This dream that we will be a tier 1 nation or compete against a tier 1 nations again is dead, it will never happen. Right now our goal should be to get into the top 20, but what i see out of RC is that they don't know what we are. We are 25th placed team and sliding and terrible against any team ranked above 20

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Wed, 27 Jun 2018, 20:49

High performance in this country is practically irrelevant as, if you are selected, you now have nobody to play against due to our geography and lack of money. What does that accomplish? If you segregate the top 20 boys in Toronto and give them special training, who exaxtly are they supposed to play and how is that funded if those teams are hundreds if not thousands of kilometres away?

Building strong mostly local or regional leagues is the only sensible option.

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