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Canadian rugby

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Working Class Rugger » Sat, 01 Sep 2018, 05:17

ruckovercdn wrote:Did anyone else read the article suggesting that the CRC is done after this year?


Is it going to be replaced by something or is it just done?

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Buffalo » Sun, 02 Sep 2018, 20:16

The Canadian Club Championship is set. The Nor’Westers AA beat the Saskatoon Badgers 44-5, the Brantford Harlequins beat the Montreal Irish 39-34 and the Fredericton Loyalists beat the Newfoundland Dogs 50-5. The UBCOB Ravens will now face off with the “Edmonton” Nor’Westers in one semifinal while the Brantford Harlequins will face the Fredericton Loyalists in the other, both on October 6th. The finals will take place October 8th. All games taking place at Klahanie Park in Vancouver.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Mon, 03 Sep 2018, 03:31

Hey out of curiosity where is the funding coming from for it?

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Tobar » Mon, 03 Sep 2018, 23:39

Did you post that on reddit? Someone posted it there that it would be axed but the article disappeared.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Tue, 04 Sep 2018, 00:51

With the U20's performance it time to bring back the Pride and have them play in a league not just lift weights. The coaches need to see these players playing regularly and notice which ones are floaters and pretenders...

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Tue, 04 Sep 2018, 14:49

Ah yes we'll just have half the team move to Victoria from their respective homes and universities. Brilliant, who wouldn't want to do that?

The dynamic and center of Rugby in this country is shifting east, we cant keep ignoring that.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Wed, 05 Sep 2018, 18:44

ruckovercdn wrote:Ah yes we'll just have half the team move to Victoria from their respective homes and universities. Brilliant, who wouldn't want to do that?

The dynamic and center of Rugby in this country is shifting east, we cant keep ignoring that.



Put it the East, I don't care. the fact is we have lots of posers rugby players that are fooling coaches that they can play but in reality all they are is gym rats. . Players need to be playing every weekend to prove they can compete and show that they are players.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby grande » Thu, 06 Sep 2018, 00:46

THREE THINGS.

1. I'd just like to reiterate how much I can't stand Gareth Rees in the booth. In the live stream for the U20 game (https://www.facebook.com/RugbyCanada/vi ... 834367268/), at 1h46m, while Canada is down 48-26, he describes the issue as "one or two missed tackles, one or two misjudgements." Honestly, I think they boys did okay against what was clearly a stronger team, and there's no shame to losing to this squad, but the problem was not just one or two missed tackles. Can we get some fucking honesty in our booth. Don't rip the kids to shreds, but say where they actually went wrong.

2. A bunch of the 7s guys are throwing shade at Rugby Canada on twitter for (re-)joining the programs. I support the 7s guys in this, and it's embarrassing to see. It seems like they just announced to the players that they'd be expected to train as XVs with no warning of forethought.

https://twitter.com/NHirayama10/status/ ... 0454769665
https://twitter.com/ChaunceyOToole/stat ... 1813310464
https://twitter.com/cdpierce4/status/10 ... 6638524416
https://twitter.com/jonesharry3/status/ ... 1555442688
https://twitter.com/Phil_Mackenzie1/sta ... 3061833728
https://twitter.com/jmoonlight12/status ... 6429874177

3. Just found this out while grabbing those tweets: A bunch of the 7s players are now boycotting RC's training sessions. https://www.cbc.ca/sports/rugby/rugby-c ... -1.4812139

"13 players, including co-captains Jones and Hirayama, skip training sessions"

Shambolic.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 06 Sep 2018, 00:51

13 of 17 "carded" players are holding out. Not sure what carding means, I'm guessing designation as Olympic athletes. Canada doesn't need a centralized XVs training group, it needs her players playing rugby.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadaman » Thu, 06 Sep 2018, 02:29

13 of 17 are holding out? Who are not? My guess would be the 'dual' contract guys: Coe, Cejvanovic, Braid and.....?

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby ruckovercdn » Thu, 06 Sep 2018, 03:14

Be interesting to find out. Cam Pierce, didnt he retire?

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby therugbycoach » Thu, 06 Sep 2018, 14:07

1. I'd just like to reiterate how much I can't stand Gareth Rees in the booth. In the live stream for the U20 game (https://www.facebook.com/RugbyCanada/vi ... 834367268/), at 1h46m, while Canada is down 48-26, he describes the issue as "one or two missed tackles, one or two misjudgements." Honestly, I think they boys did okay against what was clearly a stronger team, and there's no shame to losing to this squad, but the problem was not just one or two missed tackles. Can we get some fucking honesty in our booth. Don't rip the kids to shreds, but say where they actually went wrong.


Am I in total agreement with you on Rees . to listen to him and his biased commentaries is a joke, its almost like he isnt even watching the same game.


This whole issue with the combining of 7s and 15s strikes of desperation and stupidity , There has been for some time now a lack of Rugby sense at the top of Rugby Canada, Centralising programs OK but not to favour 1 province, and just expect anyone else to abandon work, home, family , school etc to join it.

rebranding a whole organisation at the same time they are whinging about money,

Combining 2 different groups of players from 2 quite different games thinking it will enhance both, :- 7s has been OK for Canada they have been able to hold their own with the best at time and at the moment are consistant at 9th or 10th and could improve quite easy :- 15s is in freefall and if the tour to France is anything to go by isnt planning on getting better any time soon .

will throwing the 7s players in the mix improve the 15s ...NO will changing any of the 15s team to 7s help them improve ..NO.

Very few can swap codes only a few of the absolute best from ABs, Fiji, etc seem to do it but a lot don't and most have to commit to the change and not try to do both, Im not sure any of the English 7s team play in any premiership teams, i never hear their names.

It makes a mockery of the Game if Rugby canadas future lies soley on them getting money for struggling through a qualification as the best of the absolute worst. and go no further,

Rugby Canada should see this protest by the 7s team as a wake up call as they have ignored the rank and file players and clubs, and Rugby Public saying that there needs to be a complete change from top to bottom for years.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby iul » Thu, 06 Sep 2018, 14:14

RC needs to get rid of 7s completely. Focus on XVs. That's where the money is, that's what drives interest in rugby. Nobody gives a shit about 7s.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby therugbycoach » Thu, 06 Sep 2018, 14:33

iul wrote:RC needs to get rid of 7s completely. Focus on XVs. That's where the money is, that's what drives interest in rugby. Nobody gives a shit about 7s.


I sort of agree i don't like it or see the excitement that people rave about.

it has helped in some way to get Rugby more profile and given a lot of smaller countries the chance to be involved. due to Olympic commitee funding,

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Thu, 06 Sep 2018, 15:46

iul wrote:RC needs to get rid of 7s completely. Focus on XVs. That's where the money is, that's what drives interest in rugby. Nobody gives a shit about 7s.

Because Romania is totally not funding their 7s program right now...

therugbycoach wrote:
Am I in total agreement with you on Rees . to listen to him and his biased commentaries is a joke, its almost like he isnt even watching the same game.


This whole issue with the combining of 7s and 15s strikes of desperation and stupidity , There has been for some time now a lack of Rugby sense at the top of Rugby Canada, Centralising programs OK but not to favour 1 province, and just expect anyone else to abandon work, home, family , school etc to join it.

rebranding a whole organisation at the same time they are whinging about money,

Combining 2 different groups of players from 2 quite different games thinking it will enhance both, :- 7s has been OK for Canada they have been able to hold their own with the best at time and at the moment are consistant at 9th or 10th and could improve quite easy :- 15s is in freefall and if the tour to France is anything to go by isnt planning on getting better any time soon .

will throwing the 7s players in the mix improve the 15s ...NO will changing any of the 15s team to 7s help them improve ..NO.

Very few can swap codes only a few of the absolute best from ABs, Fiji, etc seem to do it but a lot don't and most have to commit to the change and not try to do both, Im not sure any of the English 7s team play in any premiership teams, i never hear their names.

It makes a mockery of the Game if Rugby canadas future lies soley on them getting money for struggling through a qualification as the best of the absolute worst. and go no further,

Rugby Canada should see this protest by the 7s team as a wake up call as they have ignored the rank and file players and clubs, and Rugby Public saying that there needs to be a complete change from top to bottom for years.


The good 7s players for Eng, NZ, Aus, Wales etc move onto professional XVs contracts. Only very few guys are good enough at 7s to specialize for a long period without someone taking their spot. The top 7s programs in the world have extremely high turnover staying extremely youthful and developing new players every year. If you're a good enough Rugby player you gain a XVs contract or stay playing 7s for a long time...the rest move on because someone takes their spot. Only in the US and Canada do guys become 7s specialists forever...but unlike Friday, Damian develops players...so if he has the raw material the old guys will be pushed. Friday is just beholden to this group of players and really isn't a program builder IMO.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby snapper37 » Thu, 06 Sep 2018, 19:49

TheStroBro wrote:13 of 17 "carded" players are holding out. Not sure what carding means, I'm guessing designation as Olympic athletes. Canada doesn't need a centralized XVs training group, it needs her players playing rugby.



Carding means you don't have to play games anymore just train and practice in Langford.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Thu, 06 Sep 2018, 21:05

Men's rugby in this country is clinically deceased, but nobody's able to give consent to pull the plug. The clubs are being killed because the hothouse flower "representative" programs are the focus of interested players from the time they are fourteen. It is an increasingly hard sell to get good athletes to play rugby, and the odds of turning up a player like Cudmore or even Hassler are longer every year. Sevens has no benefit to Canadian men's rugby whatsoever, and the Canadian men's failure to qualify for the Olympics further served to make men's rugby in this country less attractive. It is absurd that there is no high level competition for U23 in this country. Superleague should have been a U23 league with provisions for older front row and two older "marquee" players, as was done in professional hockey in the lower level leagues. CRC is a farce. Parachuting players in who qualify due to World Rugby's ridiculous qualification rules does not in any way benefit Canadian rugby, as CRC isn't even a league. The best thing in the world will be for Canada to miss WC. World Rugby has done nothing whatsoever to help rugby in this country. Canada is not like any other country in the world in that it is the centre of the universe of a major commercial sports show-biz entity, professional hockey, and also the home of a second major league collision sport show-biz entity, the CFL, with rugby being a marginal, exotic fringe sport. The closest comparison I can think of is hockey in the US prior to the eighties. US hockey grew because they had a superb development league in NCAA, which began to produce pro level players before the spread of Major Junior in that country.
Canada needs a U23 league, spread across the country like CIS or Junior football. The teams would have a wider player pool who would play in club rugby and be called into the U23 league when opportunities arise. The players would train like CIS athletes, and play a 12-game regular season with a national play-off. This would attract good athletes locally, and give rise to a player pool to create four professional teams that could eventually play in a North American pro league. There is no other solution, and this would benefit clubs and high performance programs.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Fri, 07 Sep 2018, 12:50

Interesting times at HQ!

I posted this elsewhere, but I will also post here for discussion purposes:

Very interesting developments the past few weeks. I've been out of the loop as I'm in the process of planning a move to BC for work. Couple of things though:

Out of all of the players complaining, I think Phil Mackenzie brought up the best points, maybe delivery was a little off but Twitter is a terrible delivery platform to begin with. Phil is 100% right when he says the future of XVs in NA is in a professional league separate from Rugby Canada or any other National Governing Body. He is also right that Sevens should be separate from XVs, they are two completely different sports and you can't just exchange players on a whim, well you can but results will suffer.

The problem though is in the money piece. The players, god love them, are all fighting over money but they have clearly demonstrated that while they may be good players, they are certainly not accountants or business experts. It's a classic case of what I like to call 'Canadian Socialism' which is exemplified perfectly in Harry Jones tweet:

Image

Mr. Harry wants to play rugby but he wants someone else to pay for it. The Sevens Program is not financially self-sustaining, it never has been and never will be. The game of Sevens itself is not self-sustaining and if you don't believe me just go read World Rugby financial reports. Sevens loses money hand over fist year after year for World Rugby but World Rugby doesn't care because it is essentially a form of marketing and showcase for the real sport which is XVs.

In this regard, Sevens is a lot like Formula One Racing, in fact, that is exactly what the Sevens Series reminds me of. Sevens Events are like Grand Prix Races which are huge events in themselves but most of them lose money year in-year out. The Montreal Grand Prix is a prime example of this, it is a perpetual money loser but McLaren, Renault, Ferrari, etc don't care because putting on the show allows rich people to come out, see their products and buy their really expensive cars. In this regard, Formula One is a gigantic advertisment for the experience of Driving. Sevens is the same thing, an advertisement for the sport of Rugby.

The question then becomes though, who should be paying to put this on? Private Investors and Sponsors or the Canadian Rugby Public? I absolutely do not think that the Rugby Public should be contributing one bit of cash towards any of these players salaries and I think the fact that an exorbitant portion of our dues goes towards funding their "rugby dreams" demonstrates a complete lack of fudiciary responsibility by Rugby Canada to its paying members.

I firmly believe that Rugby Canada should be completely disconnected from the professional game, having a National Sports Governing Body run a professional sport here is not a model that has ever worked or will ever work in NA and they have totally failed in executing any sort of coherent plan.

Rugby Canada should be responsible for Administration and Governance, yes they should administer the National Teams but Rugby Canada's number one goal right now should be moving Mens XVs and Sevens toward self-sustainment. Every game the Mens XV team plays should be geared towards making money, that means hosting Tests in Toronto vice a cornfield in Alberta, getting better sponsorships, getting players playing in proper professional leagues, helping businessmen get teams off the ground, etc.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Was_a_Kat » Fri, 07 Sep 2018, 14:24

Good post CR.

It relates to what I’ve been thinking about Sevens - there is no professional market for these players. They play for their country or they don’t play. They have one potential employer, unless they play XVs again.

They will garner a great deal of public sympathy, as evidenced by BCRN, Karl Fix et al, but they don’t have much leverage. For me personally, as a Canadian Rugby fan, our participation and performances on the festival circuit really doesn’t matter.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Fri, 07 Sep 2018, 15:24

Was_a_Kat wrote:Good post CR.

It relates to what I’ve been thinking about Sevens - there is no professional market for these players. They play for their country or they don’t play. They have one potential employer, unless they play XVs again.

They will garner a great deal of public sympathy, as evidenced by BCRN, Karl Fix et al, but they don’t have much leverage. For me personally, as a Canadian Rugby fan, our participation and performances on the festival circuit really doesn’t matter.


Another repost of my comments elsewhere but a good follow up for you Was_a_kat:

The reality, which they don't seem to realize, is they have little to no commercial value which is why they are paid less than $30,000 a year.

Does the Vancouver 7s generate revenue? Yes it probably does generate some revenue. Does it generate enough revenue to pay for the 7s team's entire series season? Not even close.

This is the conundrum Sevens is in, none of the teams are self-sustaining because the tournaments will never generate enough money to pay for every teams participation and full season. They then have TV rights and sponsorships but even then, Sevens is not designed for TV and it isn't exactly a TV friendly sport. If the CBC is the broadcaster, you know the actual TV contract is peanuts.

WR last financial report praised Sevens performance in increasing its revenue generation potential. There is a big difference between Revenue and Profit though and I think people are confusing the two.

At most, Sevens may eventually become cost neutral. For now, it requires heavy subsidization from WR for the Series continued existence.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 07 Sep 2018, 15:54

No mate, Harry Jones just wants enough money to put food in his stomach. He's not asking for 100k/year, he's just asking to not be impoverished. If you understood what 7s players make in the US/CAN...aka nothing, then you'd get it. They were making 1500 CDN/month, and if you made the 12 for Vancouver they got a 5k bonus. Guys like Hirayama and Mooner have sacrificed a fuck ton for the red jersey. Is the depth of Canadian rugby so shit that 7s squad players can help XVs? It's possible, but that's a conversation that needs to be had with the player and then when they're home they need to turn out for club rugby.

CTG players were withdrawn from the BC Premier League...that is a significant portion of why Canada will suck if they do not work with MLR to place national team players throughout the league. The centralized group works for Uruguay because it's run completely differently. Most of those guys work and sacrifice time away from their family to train with Uruguay coaches on their club off days. So they play against each other every week but also see each other on the pitch as teammates every week. There are 9 teams for 2019 for MLR, Canadians are no longer foreign players. Disband the XVs centralized group and get 10 more guys signed.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby marvinparsons » Fri, 07 Sep 2018, 16:02

I have no problem with sevens and players strictly sticking to it if it is, more or less, funding itself.

If it isn't then I don't see why clubs/players that play 15s are pumping their scarce dollars into what is, as the players themselves are attesting to, an entirely different sport.

At a minimum I don't think it's wrong to ask some of those participants to also contribute back to the sport that is paying them i.e. 15s.

The fact is if men's 15s in this country dies then so does 7s, eventually. All the sevens players started off with 15s clubs, schools etc.

There is basically no rugby sevens structure in this country. There's a few odd tournaments here and there. That's it.

I don't know the budget aspects involved, but it sounds like 15s is subsidizing 7s.

Mind you all of this would go down far smoother if RC appeared to be competent or was better able to articulate what the heck they are even trying to accomplish.

The men's side needs an entire rethink top to bottom.

I can only speak for my area, but the sport is dying in Ottawa. Many teams can no longer field a men's seconds team even.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby Canadian_Rugger » Fri, 07 Sep 2018, 16:12

TheStroBro wrote:No mate, Harry Jones just wants enough money to put food in his stomach. He's not asking for 100k/year, he's just asking to not be impoverished. If you understood what 7s players make in the US/CAN...aka nothing, then you'd get it. They were making 1500 CDN/month, and if you made the 12 for Vancouver they got a 5k bonus. Guys like Hirayama and Mooner have sacrificed a fuck ton for the red jersey. Is the depth of Canadian rugby so shit that 7s squad players can help XVs? It's possible, but that's a conversation that needs to be had with the player and then when they're home they need to turn out for club rugby.

CTG players were withdrawn from the BC Premier League...that is a significant portion of why Canada will suck if they do not work with MLR to place national team players throughout the league. The centralized group works for Uruguay because it's run completely differently. Most of those guys work and sacrifice time away from their family to train with Uruguay coaches on their club off days. So they play against each other every week but also see each other on the pitch as teammates every week. There are 9 teams for 2019 for MLR, Canadians are no longer foreign players. Disband the XVs centralized group and get 10 more guys signed.


Did you read anything I wrote? 7s players are worth nothing commercially; therefore, they get paid nothing. Personally I'm not comfortable giving a substantial sum of registration dues so Harry Jones can play rugby. Harry Jones is free to get a job like the rest of us or get good enough to get paid a living wage where they pay people to play rugby.

In other words, Rugby Canada is running a form of welfare and I'm not willing to subsidize it.

I doubt any of the players in Langford are hurting for quid, half went to Shawnigan Lake so that means they have lots of money or their parents do which is how they are able to play rugby for pennies while living in one of the most expensive places in Canada and the world.

Also, Rugby in Uruguay is an upper class sport, so it has a lot more in common with BC than you think.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby rufusbuck » Fri, 07 Sep 2018, 16:17

StroBro, don't let reason get in the way of a good emotional outburst. If the sevens players are sacrificing for the Red Jersey, perhaps the Red Jersey can pay them for their efforts rather than asking club players across the country to cover the cost for the Sevens players to fulfill their sporting ambitions. Sevens is a World Rugby ad campaign, let World Rugby pay for it. There is no depth whatsoever in Canadian "elite" rugby, as proven continually by the results of the NSMT. Canada has "sucked" since the dawn of professional rugby, and will continue to decline unless a proper development league is created to produce the hundred pros needed to field a competitive international side.

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Re: Canadian rugby

Postby TheStroBro » Fri, 07 Sep 2018, 16:27

Canadian_Rugger wrote:
Did you read anything I wrote? 7s players are worth nothing commercially; therefore, they get paid nothing. Personally I'm not comfortable giving a substantial sum of registration dues so Harry Jones can play rugby. Harry Jones is free to get a job like the rest of us or get good enough to get paid a living wage where they pay people to play rugby.

In other words, Rugby Canada is running a form of welfare and I'm not willing to subsidize it.

I doubt any of the players in Langford are hurting for quid, half went to Shawnigan Lake so that means they have lots of money or their parents do which is how they are able to play rugby for pennies while living in one of the most expensive places in Canada and the world.

Also, Rugby in Uruguay is an upper class sport, so it has a lot more in common with BC than you think.

Read the whole thing and I think it's full of shit. Canada has wasted loads of cash on a centralized program for XVs and can't keep anyone. Of the two seniors Men's coaches, Damian McGrath is the one working with the grassroots and Kingsley just seems to pop in. Can't do that. The realities of Olympic Sport are you can't pay the athlete a lot, which they aren't. What you're now telling them is you're gonna pay them even less so you can bring in 10-15 more guys who won't play any rugby at all. Seriously, CTG players are not playing rugby. They're training, but they're playing no one week to week now. Canada will lose more money from this than they will gain.

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